NJ Republican Gov must pay 271 Mil for canceling tunnel project

[Darwin333]

No, you don't get the point.

Everyone agrees there is 'bad debt', and 'too much debt'.

The topic is, is there any such thing as 'good debt'?

That's the topic. He said no, and I said yes.

Try to follow the point, instead of wrongly posting 'more to the point'.

I apologize profusely.

I assumed it was a discussion about something that required even my level of IQ, obviously I was mistaken.

In other news, water is wet.

 

[Darwin333]

Why on earth should the Feds be responsible for cost overruns when they're contributing money to the project already? You're essentially saying you want MORE federal money involved. You conservatives make no sense.

Who cares at this point? The Feds ain't paying theirs back so I say fuck it, lets all stick the tab on their credit card.

 

[manimal]

Who cares at this point? The Feds ain't paying theirs back so I say fuck it, lets all stick the tab on their credit card.

So your advocating greater federal powers since eventually the person or entity paying the bill gets to call the shots?..this is a states right issue isn't it?

 

[MrX8503]

Really? Do you really believe that the "recession" is to blame for the situation we're in?

We are in this situation because of the recession, not because we spent trillions.

You believe that social security and other welfare plans were solvent long term before the recession?

You believe that our debt, which has been growing steadily since the late 60's (or so) is only because of this recession?

I'm not gonna get into an argument of how the recession started. But just FYI our debt was increasing from the 80's and it spiked within the last 10 years, which leads us to where we are now.

Had our government been fiscally responsible and balanced their checkbook in a simple and straightforward manner for the last 40 years we would not be in this recession. It is really that simple. We would not be 14 trillion in debt, and our first stimulous could have been 4 to 10 times what we spent and still not put is in the hole we've dug for our selves.

Are you that short-sighted?

Perhaps my home book-keeping IS too simple. Perhaps saving for the future, investing money in decent returns, and only spending what I have left over is a bad idea if it's applied to our government. I've never met anyone yet who could convince me of that.

It's not that simple. A balanced budget is not going to save you.

Like I said before, our debt is the result of the recession, not the cause. Since we can't predict the future, its best to look to the past and what better example then to look at the Great Depression. Also FYI, we had a balanced budget, but the Great Depression still happened.

Roosevelt increased government spending and the unemployment rate began to slowly drop. FDR was beginning to worry about balancing the budget and cut government spending, as a result it sent the US back into a second recession in the late 30's.

It wasn't until around WWII, when there was huge government spending to fund the war, which created many manufacturing jobs, were we finally recovering from the Great Depression.

Keynes, an economist says it better than myself, so I'll quote it here from wiki...

"Rather than seeing unbalanced government budgets as wrong, Keynes advocated what has been called countercyclical fiscal policies, that is policies which acted against the tide of the business cycle: deficit spending when a nation's economy suffers from recession or when recovery is long-delayed and unemployment is persistently high—and the suppression of inflation in boom times by either increasing taxes or cutting back on government outlays. He argued that governments should solve problems in the short run rather than waiting for market forces to do it in the long run, because "in the long run, we are all dead."

Our 14T debt is the result of our recession and the government is the only entity that is capable of keeping the economy flowing through deficit spending. If we held onto all of our money and cut back spending so that we don't increase our future debt, we would not survive our current problem.

You can read more about the Keynesian Economics here. Its a bit more complicated than just deficit spending. Some economists agree that it was what got us out of the Great Depression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

 

[Darwin333]

So your advocating greater federal powers since eventually the person or entity paying the bill gets to call the shots?..this is a states right issue isn't it?

I am advocating nothing of the sort.

 

[K1052]

But it would provide long term benefits right? Shorter commute, higher property values, blah blah blah. No proof of that whatsoever! All heresay.

Um, no...you can look at the reports done by the Regional Plan Association and NJT yourself if you are interested.

 

[QuantumPion]

Roosevelt increased government spending and the unemployment rate began to slowly drop.

lol

FDR was beginning to worry about balancing the budget and cut government spending, as a result it sent the US back into a second recession in the late 30's.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

lol

 

[Pulsar]

We are in this situation because of the recession, not because we spent trillions.

I'm not gonna get into an argument of how the recession started. But just FYI our debt was increasing from the 80's and it spiked within the last 10 years, which leads us to where we are now.

It's not that simple. A balanced budget is not going to save you.

Like I said before, our debt is the result of the recession, not the cause. Since we can't predict the future, its best to look to the past and what better example then to look at the Great Depression. Also FYI, we had a balanced budget, but the Great Depression still happened.

Roosevelt increased government spending and the unemployment rate began to slowly drop. FDR was beginning to worry about balancing the budget and cut government spending, as a result it sent the US back into a second recession in the late 30's.

It wasn't until around WWII, when there was huge government spending to fund the war, which created many manufacturing jobs, were we finally recovering from the Great Depression.

Keynes, an economist says it better than myself, so I'll quote it here from wiki...

"Rather than seeing unbalanced government budgets as wrong, Keynes advocated what has been called countercyclical fiscal policies, that is policies which acted against the tide of the business cycle: deficit spending when a nation's economy suffers from recession or when recovery is long-delayed and unemployment is persistently high—and the suppression of inflation in boom times by either increasing taxes or cutting back on government outlays. He argued that governments should solve problems in the short run rather than waiting for market forces to do it in the long run, because "in the long run, we are all dead."

Our 14T debt is the result of our recession and the government is the only entity that is capable of keeping the economy flowing through deficit spending. If we held onto all of our money and cut back spending so that we don't increase our future debt, we would not survive our current problem.

You can read more about the Keynesian Economics here. Its a bit more complicated than just deficit spending. Some economists agree that it was what got us out of the Great Depression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

You are using an economic theory but only applying it part of the time. Keynesian economics only works if you SAVE MONEY in the boom periods to pay for the bust periods. Our government has not and does not do that in adequate supply to pay for their spending.

Hence exactly what I said. While I may not agree with that particular economic theory, if you're going to suggest that it is how the government should handle money, then they need to apply it all the time. They cannot spend in the bust and spend in the boom. Which is exactly what I've been saying since the very start of this thread. There IS good debt if you can afford it. We cannot because our government is addicted to debt and has been spending non-stop since the 60's, digging us a "progressively" deeper hole that we now are at the point of not being able to climb out of.

So, right back to my very first post. We're out of money. We haven none to spend. It's time for the government to grow a set of balls and set about fixing this problem so we don't finish destroying this country.

 

[MrX8503]

lol



lol

I don't know why you're laughing, this actually happened. Look it up.

You are using an economic theory but only applying it part of the time. Keynesian economics only works if you SAVE MONEY in the boom periods to pay for the bust periods. Our government has not and does not do that in adequate supply to pay for their spending.

Hence exactly what I said. While I may not agree with that particular economic theory, if you're going to suggest that it is how the government should handle money, then they need to apply it all the time. They cannot spend in the bust and spend in the boom. Which is exactly what I've been saying since the very start of this thread. There IS good debt if you can afford it. We cannot because our government is addicted to debt and has been spending non-stop since the 60's, digging us a "progressively" deeper hole that we now are at the point of not being able to climb out of.

I don't think you know what you're talking about and believe you're making it up as you go along. You dont know how Keynesian economics work.

Your main argument is that we are in this situation because of our 14T debt, when this is not the case. However the recession was created, our 14T debt is the result of it not the cause.

Progressively spending since the 60's?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...deral_Debt_as_Percent_of_GDP_by_President.jpg

We spent a ton during WWII and got our deficit down due to increased jobs.

During the 60's our debt was steadily decreasing not increasing. It wasn't until Reagan was in office when our debt was slowly increasing. It went down during the Clinton years and then we were on the verge of a recession at the end of Bush's 8 year term. We are now thus experiencing the full effects of the recession, which is the reason for the huge spike during Obama's term aka $14T.

What does this look like?....oh I don't know here's another graph.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/US_Federal_Debt.png

That huge spike is the result of the Great Depression and then its recovery during WWII.

So, right back to my very first post. We're out of money. We haven none to spend. It's time for the government to grow a set of balls and set about fixing this problem so we don't finish destroying this country.

Then what is your master plan of fixing this country? The only one who has money IS the Government. They're the only ones who can spend and keep the economy moving. What we don't fix now we have already failed the future.

The US has weathered worst debt than this and have gotten down to below 40% of our GDP. I believe we can do that again.

 

[jrodson69]

So, what you are saying is that a state that is already saddled with huge debt obligations and budget deficits decided against more debt and taking the least of two evils against it's budget. Doubtful that the repayment will go into default (probably be financed with similar low interest bonds). Sounds like a wise decision to me.

$900 in ancillary rail projects, eh? until those costs balloon into the billions and NJ is stuck with the overage just like the tunnel. Again, sounds like a smart decision to me.

Exactly. These projects ALWAYS go way over budget, leaving someone (oh yeah...taxpayers!) left with a big fat bill. I applaud Christie for cutting it out. When you can't afford it, you can't afford it. Now if 49 other Governors would follow suit...