NJ Gov Christie reneges on law he signed for more pension funding. Courts say it's ok

[rudeguy]

You've forgotten - wasn't it just a few weeks ago that a few big name financial institutions were in trouble with manipulating the markets? Put your money into a 401k and there are bankers salivating at the prospect of getting as much of that money as they can. Granted, it usually goes up in value, but you very well may be missing out on a lot of the potential value as markets are manipulated so that other people can get more money out.


So, what you're saying is that voters vote Democrat because they believe Democrats will help them. But people vote for Republicans because they actually realize that the Republicans are screwing them over? I think you're giving too much credit to too many of the Republican voters, particularly in the South.

Yes Doc that's exactly what I said.

Not really. I never said anything close to that. If I had no principles and no facts to back me up, I would call you delusional.

 

[ivwshane]

Yes Doc that's exactly what I said.

Not really. I never said anything close to that. If I had no principles and no facts to back me up, I would call you delusional.

Did you see the question mark at the end of the sentence you stupid fuck?

Go troll somewhere else.

 

[cabri]

Did you see the question mark at the end of the sentence you stupid fuck?

Go troll somewhere else.

Do you have the capability to actually post responses with people you do not like/disagree with, without having to resorts to insults?

 

[Mai72]

how can it be too late?

unlike Detroit, a state cant declare bankruptcy.
once way or another, the pensioners will get paid their $80B owed to them

How? The money isn't there.

You can raise taxes I guess. Oh yea, that's going to go over well when you tell homeowners that they are going to see an increase in property taxes because they need to fund the pension system.

My guess is the NJEA will have to come to their senses and they will need to make concessions. Less health care, more time on the job, etc...

 

[Mai72]

how can it be too late?

unlike Detroit, a state cant declare bankruptcy.
once way or another, the pensioners will get paid their $80B owed to them

You should read this articled on why the judges made the correct decision.

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/06/the_judges_got_it_right_for_once_on_pensions_they.html

This quote should piss off all homeowners. The thing is the people who are collecting these pensions at 55 are moving out of the state. It's also estimated that they will collect $3.3m in pension checks throughout their retirement. Times that buy thousands of retires and you'll see why NJ is in deep financial mess. Money doesn't grow on trees.

Gov. Chris Christie gave a couple of examples of why the state pension funds are going broke. One was that of a public employee who paid in a mere $124,000 during his career, but is projected to receive more than $3.3 million in pension payments.

Hold on, you may have thought. I can't even afford to retire at 65. Yet I'm supposed to pay taxes to fund a lottery-sized payoff to send checks to some guy who moved to Florida at 55?

 

[dank69]

Principles over policy.

Democrats like you cannot say that, since you have no principles to speak of.

Principles like misinterpreting someone's post in your signature even after you've been told it isn't correct?

 

[rudeguy]

Principles like misinterpreting someone's post in your signature even after you've been told it isn't correct?

Nice! Haven't had a good old fashioned ad hominem in a while!

 

[dank69]

Nice! Haven't had a good old fashioned ad hominem in a while!

Still haven't!

 

[Bowfinger]

Don't you get it? His position is that when Republicans vote for policies they want they are doing it because they are the best policies. When Democrats vote for policies they want it's because they are evil selfish Democrats.

It's funny to watch him complain about P&N when he is the embodiment of everything he whines about. (and adds on a victim complex)

Indeed. I also note that he's ignoring the fact his nonsensical claim was so easily refuted ... as usual. If he wants good, honest discussion in P&N, he can help by finding a mirror.

 

[ivwshane]

Do you have the capability to actually post responses with people you do not like/disagree with, without having to resorts to insults?

Of course! Thanks for asking!

 

[LegendKiller]

Taxpayers can't afford or won't afford? I figure it's obviously the latter. With christie's leadership, they probably won't even come part way. it was a set up deal starting 20 years ago when reduced pension contributions were used to cover the folly of tax cuts. Funds put in 20 years ago would have quadrupled in size by now at 7% rate of return. It's not hard to figure that wealthy Jerseyites did exactly that with their tax cuts.

Take Chicago's pension shortfall. Property taxes would need to *DOUBLE* in Chicago just to contribute the full amount for this year's taxes, let alone the shortfall for all of the prior years. People can just suddenly, magically, come up with that much spare money, eh?

It doesn't matter that Unions lobbied the state. They were obviously dealing in good faith, unlike the liars cheats & thieves on the other side of it. They show up & do their jobs.

Nor were the unions. They knew the burden was too much.

401K's? Most working Americans lack the financial savvy to make them into more than a hidden fee based revenue stream for Wall St & a riskier plan than stuffing money into their mattresses.

My 401k has done pretty f'in well. Fees are low.

 

[LegendKiller]

That's true for literally every interest group ever. In fact, that's basically the structure of democracy. People vote for who they think will help them the most.



Research (generally) shows that pension returns outperform 401(k) returns due to various institutional advantages, making them inherently more 'affordable'. The state of course needs to account for the additional risk it takes on by erring on the side of caution for investment returns. The major liability of pensions that I see is that political leadership can't always be trusted to be good stewards of their pension funds and do that. It's all too easy to assume higher returns in the future in order to save money in the present. This might be a reason in and of itself to switch to 401(k) if we determine that political leadership simply isn't trustworthy enough to act responsibly.

There are also other issues of worker mobility, the ability to borrow against 401(k) balances if they want to, etc.

I would say that it's relatively natural for 401ks to underperform pensions for many reasons. Pension managers naturally have higher risk tolerance because they have research analysts. Those research analysts are usually better at picking investments. The PMs in mutual funds have those same analysts but there is no end analyst (401k owner) in the pension like there is in the 401k. Uneducated individual investors may be more risk averse and usually don't want to pay for an investment advisor who will usually give them superior returns.

If people want to transfer to a defined contribution pension fund then that's fine. They can take market risk just like the rest of us.

 

[Jhhnn]

Take Chicago's pension shortfall. Property taxes would need to *DOUBLE* in Chicago just to contribute the full amount for this year's taxes, let alone the shortfall for all of the prior years. People can just suddenly, magically, come up with that much spare money, eh?

That doesn't mean workers should bear the full burden, nor does it excuse Christie's efforts to make the situation worse.

Nor were the unions. They knew the burden was too much.

Hardly. They knew it would work if the promised funds were provided & if employee contributions weren't slashed by waves of privatization.

My 401k has done pretty f'in well. Fees are low.

I'm sure that your financial savvy is somewhere near the top of the heap & that your portfolio is large enough for you to hire advisers with even greater knowledge.

 

[Moonbeam]

If the unions didn't lobby the shit out of the state to get their "promises" (aka, buying votes) then they wouldn't get them, would they?

Taxpayers simply cannot afford what was promised, period. Get in line with the rest of us and be at risk for having your 401k go down in value.

But public employees don't get paid commensurate to private industry wages and their retirement is meant to balance that. I see it as risk tolerance used to attract reasonable talent, investing in stocks or bonds, with the stock types going private for the potential greater reward, and the public types settling for greater security.

A person who seeks wealth via the private system requires a particular mental set, a great deal of self confidence in the form of ego and that can too easily slide over into arrogance and contempt for "lesser people". It's always nice if one can appreciate ones own attributes without needing to denigrate those of others. May you have such success in your life that you seek to build the confidence of others rather than run them down. May you find such surfeit there extra for others. May you find the joys of nurture.

 

[nageov3t]

But public employees don't get paid commensurate to private industry wages and their retirement is meant to balance that.

I don't think that's true anymore

according to http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/01-30-FedPay_0.pdf it looks like public employee wages/benefits are greater than or equal to private employees until you hit the doctorate-level.

 

[LegendKiller]

But public employees don't get paid commensurate to private industry wages and their retirement is meant to balance that. I see it as risk tolerance used to attract reasonable talent, investing in stocks or bonds, with the stock types going private for the potential greater reward, and the public types settling for greater security.

A person who seeks wealth via the private system requires a particular mental set, a great deal of self confidence in the form of ego and that can too easily slide over into arrogance and contempt for "lesser people". It's always nice if one can appreciate ones own attributes without needing to denigrate those of others. May you have such success in your life that you seek to build the confidence of others rather than run them down. May you find such surfeit there extra for others. May you find the joys of nurture.

This is complete and utter horseshit. It's been complete and utter horseshit for decades. Public employees make as much, if not more, and have more stable jobs *AND* take no market risk for their retirement.

This is, what you call, a complete fucking over of the US taxpayer by public unions.

 

[LegendKiller]

That doesn't mean workers should bear the full burden, nor does it excuse Christie's efforts to make the situation worse.

Hardly. They knew it would work if the promised funds were provided & if employee contributions weren't slashed by waves of privatization.

I'm sure that your financial savvy is somewhere near the top of the heap & that your portfolio is large enough for you to hire advisers with even greater knowledge.

It absolutely does mean they should bear the entire burden. I bear the entire burden, and market risk, of my retirement, as does every non-pension employee.

Waves of privitization? Where, exactly, did that happen? Teachers privitized? Nope. Cops? Fire? Nope, nope. Janitors? Public works?

The whole "privitization" is a joke. They want too much to long.

 

[Jhhnn]

This is complete and utter horseshit. It's been complete and utter horseshit for decades. Public employees make as much, if not more, and have more stable jobs *AND* take no market risk for their retirement.

This is, what you call, a complete fucking over of the US taxpayer by public unions.

It absolutely does mean they should bear the entire burden. I bear the entire burden, and market risk, of my retirement, as does every non-pension employee.

Waves of privitization? Where, exactly, did that happen? Teachers privitized? Nope. Cops? Fire? Nope, nope. Janitors? Public works?

The whole "privitization" is a joke. They want too much to long.

Obviously, public pensions take market risks as well, although they're dependent on the whims of govt to provide promised funds. You, of all people here, should understand how such policy will bankrupt a pension over time, how decades of past failure in that regard has a profound effect today. Workers, of course, have been putting in their allotted amounts all along. The fund meets its obligations as long as it can, thus diminishing the principal & the ability to earn in the market.

Privatization? Heh. Christie's task force, aka hit squad offers this-

Mandatory
Negotiations
:
The
New
Jersey
Employer
‐
Employee
Relations
Act
should
be
amended
to
permit
public
sector
employers
to
outsource
services
to
private
vendors
without
the
need
to
negotiate
the
impact
of
these
actions.

formatting doesn't copy/paste well.

Pensions? Fuck 'em!

http://www.nj.gov/governor/news/rep...zation_Task_Force_Final_Report_(May_2010).pdf