Nissan 350Z Retospective

[Arkaign]

I just thought I'd post a thread on thoughts/what-ifs/comments on this car. I was looking forward to it until it was actually released, and then somewhat disappointed at the final result.

I remember the early 90s clearly, when you had a virtuoso group of Japanese sports cars that competed well against the field, such as :

Nissan 300Z TT
3000GT VR-4 TT
Supra TT
RX-7
NSX

So, thinking that they might decide to compete against the 300+ hp sports cars of the modern era, I was curious to see what they'd do. I guess this standard is where true disappointment set in. The performance numbers from the previous gen seemed to match/outshine the new car, which is never a good sign. The styling is kind of ugly and confused (subjective, I know). The same drivetrain and basic performance can be found in the better-equipped G35 coupe, for a similar price. Worst of all, the car fails miserably as a match to the best current domestic V8 coupes (GTO, Corvette, etc).

Maybe Nissan was holding a place for the US Skyline project (wonder if that will ever really hit?), but I can't see why they didn't release a GTZ version, something with even a modest turbo/supercharger, or .. and this would have been loads of fun : packing in the 5.6L VK56DE that is currently used in the Titan/Armada. Oh, what might have been. I wonder what the next Z car will be like.

So, what is the verdict in the AT Garage forum? The 350Z, what are your thoughts?

 

[DivideBYZero]

Too compromised in all areas, IMHO.

 

[GoatMonkey]

Like you were saying, the 350Z just doesn't seem all that great when you have an Infiniti G35 coupe right next to it. Plus the styling on the 350z is nothing special, and a little odd looking.

Automakers seem to do best styling-wise when they take well received concept cars and put them into production. The 350Z was a guarded secret until it was done, and they are paying for it now.

I think the rise of the internet has a lot to do with it. Companies get buzz on their styling through the internet after car shows. Market research is very easy. All they have to do is post some pictures and there is an immediate flood of feedback. It's really unacceptable at this point to put out an ugly car when it's so easy to get thousands of opinions.

Now, back to the 350Z. I'm not saying it's ugly, but the detailing, especially the shape of the tail lights to me, could use some work. The general shape of the sloping back end is kind of a derivative of an Audi TT or Porsche 911 with some Toyota Celica in there, but not done as well. The shape of the nose, hood and headlights is just too rounded off, flat, and boring with some angular swept back headlights that don't really go well with anything else on the car except the taillights. The door handle is a stupid looking boy-racer piece that looks like the got it from Pep-Boys. The interior is nice, but with some flimsy, cheapish plastic in some places, looks better in pictures than in person. It's just disappointing overall. I really wanted to like it.

Nissan needs to make some concept cars next time, or "leak" some pictures/renderings to the internet.

 

[ayabe]

Well you have to consider one of their aims - keeping costs down. The reason we no longer have the Supra or the RX-7 or the 300Z for that matter is that they weren't selling that well. In the 90's not enough people were willing to shell out those kind of bucks for a Jap mobile.

So the 350Z was an attempt to get back to basics and make an affordable and fun to drive car which is what Z cars are all about. In this respect I think they succeeded.

As for styling - the only thing I don't like is the door handles, the rest looks great, except on the drop top, the ass looks enormous on those.

The G35 is still priced several thousand above the 350 so I don't see any gripes there, none of my dealerships are selling even base G35's for less than 30K, so

It appears that Honda with new NSX and Toyota with the new Supra(if/when it gets here) and the Skyline are going ultra exotic with price tags to match and I think ultimately they will be doomed to failure for the same reasons as before.

Chances are the Z06 will still be cheaper and will be on par or outperform these models and that's what American sports car people will be buying, not an $80,000 Skyline or whatever it's going to be called.

 

[Aimster]

a 2007 350z runs E46 M3 times.
Check the 350z board

There are many 600+ HP 350Zs out there.

It's a great car and lots of modifications

 

[mwmorph]

I think you're forgetting the supra was $40k in 1993 dollars, the 350Z is $30K in 2007 dollars. I'm sure for $50k 2007 dollars, you could buy a car that beats the supra in every respect.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Aimster
a 2007 350z runs E46 M3 times.
Check the 350z board

There are many 600+ HP 350Zs out there.

It's a great car and lots of modifications

It still gets utterly destroyed by even C5 Vettes though, just seems kind of sad considering the heritage of the Z car.

E46 M3? That's a great track car, but I really don't think the 2007 Z can keep up, judging from the performance info available.

E46 M3 (Car & Driver, March '03) = 0-60 4.8, 1/4 in 13.1 @ 105
2007 350Z (Car & Driver, Jan '07) = 0-60 5.2, 1/4 in 13.7 @ 104

As anyone who's ever been to the track can testify (I'm sure you've been as well), a .6 difference is huge in the 1/4.

Not to mention, the 350 has gained about 20hp since the initial '03 model, but lost torque. Weird.

And if you want to talk mods, well that changes everything. Put $2500 into a C4 with the LS1 and you're in the 11s on the 1/4. Meh.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I think you're forgetting the supra was $40k in 1993 dollars, the 350Z is $30K in 2007 dollars. I'm sure for $50k 2007 dollars, you could buy a car that beats the supra in every respect.

Corvette FTW, though the Supras are ridiculously moddable. It would be tough to match the slalom/skidpad numbers on the Vette though, even with heavy modding.

 

[ElFenix]

the convertible is ugly, and the coupe is heavy. i'd rather have the sedan version (which weighs the same even though it is much bigger).

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: Aimster
a 2007 350z runs E46 M3 times.
Check the 350z board

There are many 600+ HP 350Zs out there.

It's a great car and lots of modifications

It still gets utterly destroyed by even C5 Vettes though, just seems kind of sad considering the heritage of the Z car.

E46 M3? That's a great track car, but I really don't think the 2007 Z can keep up, judging from the performance info available.

E46 M3 (Car & Driver, March '03) = 0-60 4.8, 1/4 in 13.1 @ 105
2007 350Z (Car & Driver, Jan '07) = 0-60 5.2, 1/4 in 13.7 @ 104

As anyone who's ever been to the track can testify (I'm sure you've been as well), a .6 difference is huge in the 1/4.

Not to mention, the 350 has gained about 20hp since the initial '03 model, but lost torque. Weird.

And if you want to talk mods, well that changes everything. Put $2500 into a C4 with the LS1 and you're in the 11s on the 1/4. Meh.

Not only is the e46 M3 faster, but it's a livable car. Seats five, large trunk for a coupe and looks a ton better(IMHO, OK I'm biased).

Try getting more than a cheesecake in the trunk of the 350z, or pick up two friends. Oh, you can't.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I think you're forgetting the supra was $40k in 1993 dollars, the 350Z is $30K in 2007 dollars. I'm sure for $50k 2007 dollars, you could buy a car that beats the supra in every respect.

Corvette FTW, though the Supras are ridiculously moddable. It would be tough to match the slalom/skidpad numbers on the Vette though, even with heavy modding.

Well so is the Corvette. It is much easier to make huge power and great handling from a Corvette than a Supra. No replacement for displacement. I have seen dyno charts of 900hp Supras. They make less than or around 100ft/lbs of torque before the huge turbo finalyl spins up at 4.5-5k. A 900hp turbo/supercharged Corvette? Probably would have a much better torque curve thus making it more drivable off boost.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I think you're forgetting the supra was $40k in 1993 dollars, the 350Z is $30K in 2007 dollars. I'm sure for $50k 2007 dollars, you could buy a car that beats the supra in every respect.

Corvette FTW, though the Supras are ridiculously moddable. It would be tough to match the slalom/skidpad numbers on the Vette though, even with heavy modding.

Well so is the Corvette. It is much easier to make huge power and great handling from a Corvette than a Supra. No replacement for displacement. I have seen dyno charts of 900hp Supras. They make less than or around 100ft/lbs of torque before the huge turbo finalyl spins up at 4.5-5k. A 900hp turbo/supercharged Corvette? Probably would have a much better torque curve thus making it more drivable off boost.

The bolded is very true, though boost helps a given displacement perform a notch or two above it's normal potential.

 

[shabby]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
I just thought I'd post a thread on thoughts/what-ifs/comments on this car. I was looking forward to it until it was actually released, and then somewhat disappointed at the final result.

I remember the early 90s clearly, when you had a virtuoso group of Japanese sports cars that competed well against the field, such as :

Nissan 300Z TT
3000GT VR-4 TT
Supra TT
RX-7
NSX

Whats the nsx doing on that list? Twas a bit underpowred imo
The other 4 were definetly some sweet rides, especially the rx7... minus the apex seals.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I think you're forgetting the supra was $40k in 1993 dollars, the 350Z is $30K in 2007 dollars. I'm sure for $50k 2007 dollars, you could buy a car that beats the supra in every respect.

Corvette FTW, though the Supras are ridiculously moddable. It would be tough to match the slalom/skidpad numbers on the Vette though, even with heavy modding.

Well so is the Corvette. It is much easier to make huge power and great handling from a Corvette than a Supra. No replacement for displacement. I have seen dyno charts of 900hp Supras. They make less than or around 100ft/lbs of torque before the huge turbo finalyl spins up at 4.5-5k. A 900hp turbo/supercharged Corvette? Probably would have a much better torque curve thus making it more drivable off boost.

900hp cars are not meant for "drivability off boost" anyway IMHO. You want something fun to tool around the city in, you're not building a heavily modded 900 hp car.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: shabby

Originally posted by: Arkaign
I just thought I'd post a thread on thoughts/what-ifs/comments on this car. I was looking forward to it until it was actually released, and then somewhat disappointed at the final result.

I remember the early 90s clearly, when you had a virtuoso group of Japanese sports cars that competed well against the field, such as :

Nissan 300Z TT
3000GT VR-4 TT
Supra TT
RX-7
NSX

Whats the nsx doing on that list? Twas a bit underpowred imo
The other 4 were definetly some sweet rides, especially the rx7... minus the apex seals.

I know, but the aluminum construction and ridiculously awesome handling make it a modern classic, I bet these things will be very valuable in the future.

I thought of adding the Subaru SVX as well, but it's not quite up to the rest of the list when it comes to performance.

 

[exdeath]

The cars you are comparing against from the mid 90s are legends. The mid 90s was the Japanese Muscle Car Era.

Not many cars today are going to compare to classics like those.

A MKIV JZA80 TT Supra 6 speed is the only other car I would consider a replacement for my '03 Cobra. I guess there is a reason the '03 Cobra's are called "Domestic Supras"

The VQ is a great engine, but I'd rather see a revival of the SR20 or RB26.

Also just for kicks, throw in the MR2 Turbo and R34 Skyline in the list even though we didn't get the R34 *grumble*.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I think you're forgetting the supra was $40k in 1993 dollars, the 350Z is $30K in 2007 dollars. I'm sure for $50k 2007 dollars, you could buy a car that beats the supra in every respect.

Corvette FTW, though the Supras are ridiculously moddable. It would be tough to match the slalom/skidpad numbers on the Vette though, even with heavy modding.

Well so is the Corvette. It is much easier to make huge power and great handling from a Corvette than a Supra. No replacement for displacement. I have seen dyno charts of 900hp Supras. They make less than or around 100ft/lbs of torque before the huge turbo finalyl spins up at 4.5-5k. A 900hp turbo/supercharged Corvette? Probably would have a much better torque curve thus making it more drivable off boost.

900hp cars are not meant for "drivability off boost" anyway IMHO. You want something fun to tool around the city in, you're not building a heavily modded 900 hp car.

I will be shortly. Stoplight to stoplight in .02 seconds FTW!

Probably will be doing twin 57s on a 324" 4.6 stroker. Full boost by 3,500 RPM and stock or better HP and TQ below that, and hopefully break 4 digits to the wheels on pump gas. 1000 HP means nothing to me on 116 octane race gas in a street car. When it makes 1000 HP 24/7 on pump gas, then it's a street car.

http://www.sctflash.com/rides.php

This one is on a stock 4.6L DOHC V8 top to bottom making 857HP/873TQ to the wheels, and I believe thats with 93 octane. In fact I'm sure of it given that it's only 21 psi. 18-20psi is the limit for pump gas on a blower, and one benefit of turbo is running higher boost with less octane. With 43 extra cubes on a bored stroker and some head work, I'm aiming for the 1000 RWHP barrier, 24/7 on pump gas without nitrous or methanol.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I think you're forgetting the supra was $40k in 1993 dollars, the 350Z is $30K in 2007 dollars. I'm sure for $50k 2007 dollars, you could buy a car that beats the supra in every respect.

Corvette FTW, though the Supras are ridiculously moddable. It would be tough to match the slalom/skidpad numbers on the Vette though, even with heavy modding.

Well so is the Corvette. It is much easier to make huge power and great handling from a Corvette than a Supra. No replacement for displacement. I have seen dyno charts of 900hp Supras. They make less than or around 100ft/lbs of torque before the huge turbo finalyl spins up at 4.5-5k. A 900hp turbo/supercharged Corvette? Probably would have a much better torque curve thus making it more drivable off boost.

Thats why there is no difference between a 500 RWHP Supra and a 1000 RWHP Supra, they both run 12s lol

Best way to fix that is a HKS or Titan 3.4L stroker kit and a small shot of juice to spool up a more reasonably sized turbo. No replacement for displacement indeed.