Nintendo Wii vs Sword-Play simulation

mozirry

Senior member
Sep 18, 2006
760
1
0
I know this is regarding a childly joyful next-gen console, but I think the question itself remains highly technical.

Ok, so we have all been savoring over the idea of actually wielding mythical light-sabers in battle since the 1st day we saw Star Wars. Now that I have that generalization away, many people have prophetized that the highly anticipated Nintendo Wii controller could actually deliver some form of affordable virtual sword play, *saber-sword play to be exact*

Now that the console has been released, it is obvious that actually coding some sort of sword simulation is a daunting task.

First question: With the current input that the Nintendo Wii controller has, is it even possible or feasible to mirror physical actions on-screen.

Second question: Assuming it is possible, how can this be done and to what result?

----------------------
The Wii controller apparently has an infrared pointer that can measure pin-point..pointing accuracy when facing the television, but loses complete bearings once moved outside of the virtual targeting space surrounding the television.
The infrared sensor can also measure distance between the controller and the television.
The unit also has the ability to detect lateral and horizontal movement of the controller.
----------------------

Swords are generally moved in a lateral and horizontal movement, and also move through distance by "lunging" and "Striking"
----------------------
The input from the Wii controller should be sufficient to simulate some, but probably not all of generic sword movements with high accuracy.
---------------------

Hardware problems: In order to measure distance between the television and player, the infrared sensor needs to maintain contact with its "zone". Once the controller leaves the zone (I.E. when you move your arm back to gain momentum in a swing) the distance may estimate may be ruined.
Without the ability to determine distance, it is nearly impossible for the controller to inform the program how/where it is in space. Although the rotations of the sword will be mimiced in almost real time no matter where the placement of the controller, the input will be limited to a sword rotating on a unmovable axis.
Imagine a sword stuck on a pivot that stays in one spot and only knows to rotate in circles.
Without the ability to measure distance, it would be impossible to know if you are holding the sword high above your head, or low to the ground, or far infront of your body.
--------------------
So is it still possible?

I don't know, in some crude form it may be possible. But the idea of free form sword play is gone.
---------------------
Ideas how to fix this?
The controller is inadequate for the purpose of simulating sword play, but perhaps some sort of add-on controller could, since all you need is another form of input to determine the missing factor.

The best place to determine the placement of the sword in space is probably by the tip. So perhaps in the tip of this "Add-on" product they could include some sort of device that could reasonably measure the movement of the weapon.

Radio waves? (radio emitter from tip of sword to receiver near screen)
Reverse laser detection? (screen searching for tip of sword instead of tip of sword searching for screen)
Some sort of wierd weight monitor? (the idea being that as the sword moves in space, weight is transferred and can be measured for programming purposes)
Or perhaps they just widen the laser pointer sensor to encompass the 4 points instead of one(in front, to left, to right, and above)
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Use a grid of laser distance detection devices pointed at the playing area for the system to determine the positioning and movement of your body. Use this data and a small supercomputer to determine the positioning of your game character in realtime. Then you have absolute positioning capability, and you could fight in full (virtual) fighting stances.

Then, add gyroscopes and/or high-speed motors with flywheels to the sword to provide "real" force-feedback: i.e. when you hit someone else's sword, yours is physically stopped.

Then, add large warnings about hitting people with fake swords and throwing swords through walls, aquariums, televisions, and the like.
 

mozirry

Senior member
Sep 18, 2006
760
1
0
Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Use a grid of laser distance detection devices pointed at the playing area for the system to determine the positioning and movement of your body. Use this data and a small supercomputer to determine the positioning of your game character in realtime. Then you have absolute positioning capability, and you could fight in full (virtual) fighting stances.

Then, add gyroscopes and/or high-speed motors with flywheels to the sword to provide "real" force-feedback: i.e. when you hit someone else's sword, yours is physically stopped.

Then, add large warnings about hitting people with fake swords and throwing swords through walls, aquariums, televisions, and the like.

heheh, well that doesnt exactly sound economical. Sort of sounds like the Holodeck in Star Trek : NG =)
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
I haven't played it, but... this game at least tries to use the controller as a sword.

Edit: Looking at reviews, apparently it's more of a gesture-based command thing... ie, you swipe the controller and the character does a preprogrammed 'swipe' move (kind of like the Jedi Knight PC games). So it's not like you control the sword completely.

Having done some work with motion-capture camera/sensor setups... it is a lot harder than it looks to get really reliable functionality like this without spending a lot of money.
 

mozirry

Senior member
Sep 18, 2006
760
1
0
I recently played the "Die by the Sword" demo for the PC (came out back in 98 I think) and was just thinking there has got to be some sort of way to use this new motion sensing technology to do something better

(Die by the Sword, in a wierd way, allowed you free range of motion by just using the mouse) It didn't work very well, but it was pretty immersive and convincing at times
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: mozirry
I recently played the "Die by the Sword" demo for the PC (came out back in 98 I think) and was just thinking there has got to be some sort of way to use this new motion sensing technology to do something better

(Die by the Sword, in a wierd way, allowed you free range of motion by just using the mouse) It didn't work very well, but it was pretty immersive and convincing at times

Yep... played that one. Fun, but rather awkward. A joystick might have actually worked better than the mouse, come to think of it.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
Originally posted by: mozirry
I know this is regarding a childly joyful next-gen console, but I think the question itself remains highly technical.

Ok, so we have all been savoring over the idea of actually wielding mythical light-sabers in battle since the 1st day we saw Star Wars. Now that I have that generalization away, many people have prophetized that the highly anticipated Nintendo Wii controller could actually deliver some form of affordable virtual sword play, *saber-sword play to be exact*

Now that the console has been released, it is obvious that actually coding some sort of sword simulation is a daunting task.

First question: With the current input that the Nintendo Wii controller has, is it even possible or feasible to mirror physical actions on-screen.

Second question: Assuming it is possible, how can this be done and to what result?

----------------------
The Wii controller apparently has an infrared pointer that can measure pin-point..pointing accuracy when facing the television, but loses complete bearings once moved outside of the virtual targeting space surrounding the television.
The infrared sensor can also measure distance between the controller and the television.
The unit also has the ability to detect lateral and horizontal movement of the controller.
----------------------

Swords are generally moved in a lateral and horizontal movement, and also move through distance by "lunging" and "Striking"
----------------------
The input from the Wii controller should be sufficient to simulate some, but probably not all of generic sword movements with high accuracy.
---------------------

Hardware problems: In order to measure distance between the television and player, the infrared sensor needs to maintain contact with its "zone". Once the controller leaves the zone (I.E. when you move your arm back to gain momentum in a swing) the distance may estimate may be ruined.
Without the ability to determine distance, it is nearly impossible for the controller to inform the program how/where it is in space. Although the rotations of the sword will be mimiced in almost real time no matter where the placement of the controller, the input will be limited to a sword rotating on a unmovable axis.
Imagine a sword stuck on a pivot that stays in one spot and only knows to rotate in circles.
Without the ability to measure distance, it would be impossible to know if you are holding the sword high above your head, or low to the ground, or far infront of your body.
--------------------
So is it still possible?

I don't know, in some crude form it may be possible. But the idea of free form sword play is gone.
---------------------
Ideas how to fix this?
The controller is inadequate for the purpose of simulating sword play, but perhaps some sort of add-on controller could, since all you need is another form of input to determine the missing factor.

The best place to determine the placement of the sword in space is probably by the tip. So perhaps in the tip of this "Add-on" product they could include some sort of device that could reasonably measure the movement of the weapon.

Radio waves? (radio emitter from tip of sword to receiver near screen)
Reverse laser detection? (screen searching for tip of sword instead of tip of sword searching for screen)
Some sort of wierd weight monitor? (the idea being that as the sword moves in space, weight is transferred and can be measured for programming purposes)
Or perhaps they just widen the laser pointer sensor to encompass the 4 points instead of one(in front, to left, to right, and above)


it might be more economica to buy 2 replica FX sabres and just sword fight.
 

Megamixman

Member
Oct 30, 2004
150
0
0
Well don't forget that is the standard controller. Many Robotics systems use 3-axis accelerometers to keep track of where they are. The same technique can be used in a wireless controller that would send back the info. Only a few main problems exist:

Expense : I'm not sure of the prices,but 3-axis accelerometers are definitely more expensive then the ones in the Wii, along with the fact that they would have to be able to detect the G's we put on them.

Data: Can the Wii's wireless interface handle that amount of data?

Programming: Most games up to now have been made with pre-determined motions. The new games would have to take into account many more factors and that could make the physics more difficult.

 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
There are relatively inexpensive ultrasonic locator mechanisms where you place 3 emitters around yourself and attach the receivers to the item you're using. $6k - $8k.