Nikon Mirrorless V-1

corkyg

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I find this interesting. My 1st real camera (box Brownie's don't count!) was a Kodak rangefinder 35mm. It was great little camera with a fixed f/3.5 lens. I got it when my dad upgraded to a Leica IIIC with an F2 Summitar lens.

Later, I upgraded to a SLR (Minolta ST-101) and ultimately a Nikon F2AS with several lenses.

And a few years ago, I got a Canon DSLR (D60) and then a 20D, a 5D and now a 5D MKII. What makes me smile is that we have regressed to a digital rangefinder camera - almost full circle. <LOL>

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...irrorless.html

So, when will Canon join the mirrorless parade with one that can use my existing EOS lenses?
 

996GT2

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I find this interesting. My 1st real camera (box Brownie's don't count!) was a Kodak rangefinder 35mm. It was great little camera with a fixed f/3.5 lens. I got it when my dad upgraded to a Leica IIIC with an F2 Summitar lens.

Later, I upgraded to a SLR (Minolta ST-101) and ultimately a Nikon F2AS with several lenses.

And a few years ago, I got a Canon DSLR (D60) and then a 20D, a 5D and now a 5D MKII. What makes me smile is that we have regressed to a digital rangefinder camera - almost full circle. <LOL>

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...irrorless.html

So, when will Canon join the mirrorless parade with one that can use my existing EOS lenses?

$1149.95 for a glorified point and shoot with two slow-aperture zoom lenses. The sensor size is only 1/2 of micro 4/3 or 1/3 of APS-C, and the camera and lenses are not physically smaller than Micro 4/3 cameras.

Tell me, what's so interesting about that?
 

iGas

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Get the Leica M9 or M9-P if you are looking for a range finder camera to compete with your 5D/5D mkII.
 

corkyg

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I know it is not a rangefinder - but the point is mirrorless with interchangeable lenses. It is the "retroness" I* find interesting. And, I fully agree with all the commoents. :)
 

ElFenix

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leica 1 maybe


the fujis are more interesting if you want retroness


or that ricoh transformer camera with the m-compatible back module
 

corkyg

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I guess y'all are too young to see the irony. The new "mirrorless" digicams are, in my frame of reference, a step backward. IOW, the mirroless digital is analogous to the old rangefinder film cams with interchangeable lenses. They advanced to SLRs. Now we have DSLRs regressing to electronic focusing (same function as a rangefinder) interchangeable lens cams. I find that somewhat ironic. :)
 

ElFenix

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you're aware that SLRs autofocus by rangefinding, right? they're more rangefinder than these contrast detect boxes are.


these mirrorless boxes don't have the same pitfalls that rangefinders did: they accurately frame the scene and aren't useless for long telephoto or macro photography. they're also more robust than rangefinders are (that's a delicate mechanism up there). those are the same reasons SLRs took over from rangefinders.
 
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gar655

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you're aware that SLRs autofocus by rangefinding, right? they're more rangefinder than these contrast detect boxes are.

The Nikons use a hybrid AF- both contrast and phase detection for AF. Which if it works as Nikon states will be the best AF available. The V1 does things the other mirrorless boxes cannot like AF track at 10fps, plus a host of other "cool tricks".

I kind of like the V1 and would consider having on to supplement my D700, but not at the current early adopter price.

Maybe when the 2 lens kit drops to about $599 and includes the F mount adapter.
 

wlee

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If you really want a rangefinder style cam as a carry around "street" cam ( and can't afford a Leica M9) , then look at something like the new Fuji retro cams. I think they better represent that niche, than the new Nikon mirror-less models. It looks like Nikon is a afraid to make a good modern digital ver of the Nikon SP, so as to not cut into their SLR biz.


Fuji is developing an interchangeable lens ver of the X100. Though they are/were a Micro Four Thirds consortium member, it would be quite ironic if they kept it APS-C sensor and made it use F Mount lenses. Personally, I'm putting myself on the pre-order list for the Fuji X10

Fuji X100
http://www.finepix-x100.com/

Fuji X10
http://fujifilm-x.com/x10/en/
http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x10/


Corky, the whole point of having a "retro-cam" like this is so you don't have to carry a BIG SLR and lens. This isn't the kind of thing you mount a 80-200mm lens on. You stick a wide to moderate, but FAST lens on it. Preferable a Pancake.
 

ElFenix

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The Nikons use a hybrid AF- both contrast and phase detection for AF. Which if it works as Nikon states will be the best AF available. The V1 does things the other mirrorless boxes cannot like AF track at 10fps, plus a host of other "cool tricks".

I kind of like the V1 and would consider having on to supplement my D700, but not at the current early adopter price.

Maybe when the 2 lens kit drops to about $599 and includes the F mount adapter.

corky was talking in general and i responded in general.

some fuji cams have both phase and contrast detect
 
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twistedlogic

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Tell me, what's so interesting about that?

Stick the new 40mm DX macro on there and you have a equivalent 105mm FF macro with 3 more stops of DOF.

From what I here, Nikon claims the IQ is as good as a DSLR, only time will tell.
 

ElFenix

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Stick the new 40mm DX macro on there and you have a equivalent 105mm FF macro with 3 more stops of DOF.
which is basically pixel density. the 40mm macro is going to output the same image regardless of what camera it's attached to, you're just using a smaller portion of it on this than on the camera it was designed for. you get a 10 mp image from this as opposed to a 7.5 mp image from a sony A77 is the difference (fairly certain that sensor will show up elsewhere shortly). if canon pushes the mp envelope all the way to 30 mp that pixel density advantage is erased (the canon would be a 10.5 mp image).

From what I here, Nikon claims the IQ is as good as a DSLR, only time will tell.
laws of physics say no.
 
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twistedlogic

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which is basically pixel density. the 40mm macro is going to output the same image regardless of what camera it's attached to, you're just using a smaller portion of it on this than on the camera it was designed for. you get a 10 mp image from this as opposed to a 7.5 mp image from a sony A77 is the difference (fairly certain that sensor will show up elsewhere shortly).

So I could throw down $2000 on a Sony A77 and $500 down on the Sigma 70mm macro and crop away 2/3 of the image myself, giving me roughly the same image as a $650 Nikon 1 J1 + $280 40mm macro SOOC that would weigh significantly less and take up half the room?

Then take into account the AF density of the Nikon 1 system over the 2/3 crop of the 19 point Sony AF.

This is what I'm saying could be interesting. Also throwing on a 70-300 VR giving you the equivalent 190-810mm sounds like a fun time.
 

ElFenix

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So I could throw down $2000 on a Sony A77 and $500 down on the Sigma 70mm macro and crop away 2/3 of the image myself, giving me roughly the same image as a $650 Nikon 1 J1 + $280 40mm macro SOOC that would weigh significantly less and take up half the room?

Then take into account the AF density of the Nikon 1 system over the 2/3 crop of the 19 point Sony AF.

This is what I'm saying could be interesting. Also throwing on a 70-300 VR giving you the equivalent 190-810mm sounds like a fun time.

holy crap the sony costs that much?

point being, any camera sharing that same sensor can get similar results to the A77, such as the nex7 or if sony come out with an even cheaper model.

the lumix G3 will also give you a similar image.

this is the same 'reach' comment used by the 4/3 people. fact of the matter is, there are a bunch of canon cameras that will put more pixels on a bird using the same equivalent focal length than the 10 mp 4/3 cameras do.

it's all pixel density. not inherent to the system itself.

heck, the superzooms have even greater pixel density, have more reach, and many have that same huge dof macro capability built in. with just one lens!
 
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Sid59

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http://www.bythom.com/ has a good writeup about the use of proper tools

Of other note, Nikon Rumors posted DXO sensor scores for J1 and V1

ack of Equivalence is a Tool
Sept 29 (commentary)--Just as in the film world, we have a lot of people not fully understanding how format choice impacts photography. The usual way to get to understanding this is a notion called "equivalence." We're going to short cut the full description of equivalence with this one: essentially the same shot visually.

To get equivalence you need:

Same position relative to the subject (i.e. not closer or further away)
Same angle of view captured
Same DOF captured

You'll also hear people talking about photons in equivalence. Smaller sensors need faster lenses to capture the same number of photons and have the same signal-to-noise ratio as larger sensors. But I'm going to skip past this notion for this discussion and just assume that we're shooting at base ISO with very good sensors for their size (i.e. noise and dynamic range aren't going to really impact our image).

So, we take five photographers all shooting with different formats: FX, DX, m4/3, Nikon 1, Coolpix P7100. I'm going to round the numbers a bit in values, so don't get all picky on me here--I don't think the small amount of rounding is anywhere near as important as the basic concept. Again, we want equivalent photos as I've defined it above. So:

FX shooter is at 300mm f/8
DX shooter is at 200mm f/5.6
m4/3 shooter is at 150mm f/4
Nikon 1 shooter is at 110mm f/2.8
Coolpix P7100 shooter is at 64mm f/1.8

Of course, we already have our first casualty: the Coolpix shooter doesn't have 64mm or f/1.8, their fixed lens only goes to 42mm and f/5.6.

As we try to increase the angle of view, we start losing other formats:

FX shooter is at 50mm f/8
DX shooter is at 35mm f/5.6
m4/3 shooter is at 25mm f/4
Nikon 1 shooter is at 18mm f/2.8

The Nikon 1 shooter is down to some strange lens choices (14-24mm f/2.8 on the adapter, for example). Let's go into a lower light situation and even wider:

FX shooter is at 24mm f/2.8
DX shooter is at 16mm f/2
m4/3 shooter is at 12mm f/1.4
Nikon 1 shooter is at 9mm f/1

We've now completely lost the Nikon 1 shooter and we're losing the m4/3 and DX shooters, as they don't really have the lenses to come close.

So, if our goal is to take pictures "that look just like we took them with 35mm film," then the equivalence notion starts putting restrictions on us, especially as we go wider and faster. We just can't get to equivalent (and again, I'm not trying to bring photons and dynamic range into this discussion).

But the opposite is true, too. Let's turn things around and say that we want lots of depth of field:

Coolpix shooter is at 6mm f/2.8
Nikon 1 shooter is at 10mm f/4
m4/3 shooter is at 14mm f/5.6
DX shooter is at 18mm f/8
FX shooter is at 28mm f/11

Narrow the angle of view and try to keep a large DOF:

Coolpix shooter is at 11mm f/5.6
Nikon 1 shooter is at 19mm f/8
m4/3 shooter is at 25mm f/11
DX shooter is at 35mm f/16
FX shooter is at 50mm f/22

Hmm, the Nikkor 50mm lens only goes to f/16, so we're starting to lose the FX shooter.

The simple fact is that there are looks you can't get with small formats that you can with large formats, and vice versa. The trick is to pick the right tool for the right job, and therefore to understand the underlying differences of your tools. I don't use m4/3 to replace my FX equipment; I use m4/3 to supplement my FX equipment. Yes, there's sometimes overlap, in which case I can pick small/light or phenomenal dynamic range/noise properties (but not both ;~).

Today a lot of Nikon users are getting upset over a statement Nikon made on their Facebook page: "A photographer is only as good as the equipment he uses," which they subsequently apologized for with a further statement that included "...the right equipment can help you capture amazing images." That second quote isn't far from what I'm trying to say here: you choose equipment based upon what you want to do.

Everything in photography is about balancing decisions. Everything. You may make hundreds of decisions to get a single good photograph, and one of them is to choose the right tool for the job. I see the Nikon 1 as just another tool. I wish the tool were better targeted towards me (more direct control, for example), but it does potentially offer me some options I didn't have before, so it's welcome.

I think a lot of the heat in the discussions about mirrorless cameras is the "I want something that can do everything" notion. People want small, light, inexpensive, high image quality, flexible, robust, and a few other things all in one package. But there's a simple fact of life: the more things you require from a tool, the more compromised and/or expensive it is. Moreover, some combinations are impossible (or at least improbable): small, inexpensive, and high quality, for example.
 

twistedlogic

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http://www.bythom.com/ has a good writeup about the use of proper tools

I thought his Sept. 23 article was pretty telling:

"Say what you will about the camera, there's a tremendous amount of curiosity about it. My site hit a new peak in daily visitors yesterday, with over 21% being new to my site (welcome; I'm [mostly] friendly ;~). Even the D7000 announcement day didn't top the Nikon 1 announcement day."