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Next Steps to Take to Fix 'Systemic Racism' - As Told by a CIS-Gender male with White Privilege

Nov 8, 2012
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Note: I will naturally ignore any posts that are < 5 sentences. If you’re too inept to read an argument and come up with your own counter-points or agreements, then I will naturally spend the same amount of time you spent on my post. Thank you for understanding.


Below are my points on some of the first steps we need to take if we ever hope to even BEGIN to fix racial issues that have been coming up recently. I understand some might emotionally disagree. I ask that instead of just posting your feelings that you instead post wit your thoughts.


Stop Racial Division. Stop grouping. Stop segregating. Stop "racial clubs".

This never helps. This never fixes anything. It simply sows division. Instead of coming together and identifying as humans, it instead focuses on our differences when the majority of us are 99% the same.
Things like "cultural appropriation" and other such nonsense is essentially the left's versions of racism because it seeks to prevent our cultures from coming together in a melting pot. So instead it sows division instead because "You're not allowed to do that". And thus you teach people that everyone is different instead of talking about how we are (in actuality) all the same.
This Is WHY and WHAT white racists feed off of. When others segregate – they will respond with segregation as well. When you keep proclaiming how we are so different, the white nationalists will naturally do the same.

People naturally want to self-segregate
This is one part where I ultimately have little to offer as far as a solution. As much as I want this to be a melting pot, people are continuing to segregate as they want to live with “their kind”. You can see this in any major city with the likes of a “Chinatown”. You can see it in black community areas. If we truly want people to be equal, we have to stop seeing someone’s skin color or background and saying “I want to be around them because they look like me”.


Education is Important, Yo.
Undoubtedly, education is important. There is no denying this. It is definitely a determining factor in your future career path – HOWEVER, in today’s age there are plenty of people with crushing college debt, a piece of paper degree, and yet they still work at Starbucks. So while education is important – not everyone is made for 4-Yr+ degrees. Period.
On a side topic – if you want to do something like reform college – If you want to make college free…. Overall I’m fine with that. But at minimal we would not cover worthless majors… and we wouldn’t cover everyone that doesn’t make a certain average score. It sounds bad, but like I said – you’re going to have to tell people NO, you’re not made for advanced education. Seek a trade-skill.
But my main point on education reform is that we definitely need to reform in the sense of how schools are paid for. In many states it’s based on things like property taxes – where the amount of budget allocation is heavily dependent upon how wealthy the residents of the area are.
At the same time, I’ve seen school districts that have tons of money and tons of budget – yet they are still epic failures – so I’m not 100% sure it’s a money problem. Chicago schools are a perfect example. If folks want to discuss this further, I would be glad to have a conversation as to why Chicago schools are still a complete shit-hole even with all the money they have with teachers.
Also – let’s talk facts: New York City is the MOST SEGREGATED schools in the nation. This is undeniable. This is a fact. So continuing to proclaim something but actioning otherwise doesn’t fix the problem.


Civics class (and legal class)
Everyone should take a class on civics. This is where you learn to vote, how you can make a difference. Learn about your rights. Learn what rights you don’t have. How to talk to a police officer. Actions to never do infront of police officer – such as attempting to get away. It will never work out better for you.
If you do have legal challenges in life – knowing the appeal process. Knowing about attorneys, how to obtain one. Knowing about settlements – and why you shouldn’t always agree to one simply because someone pressures you. Learn to question authority, think for yourself, and in general not believe everything you hear. Seek the truth on your own – and not via Facebook/Twitter. How to pay taxes – what taxes go towards at a high level.
Also learn that people will judge you based on your appearance. No matter how much you want to call something like this racist – If someone dresses in a certain way – people are going to interpret things about you. This doesn’t really relate to race as much as people want it to – everyone does this ALL the time, whether they realize it or not. The main message to teach the class though: You should dress appropriately. I’ve been to government offices for multiple things: Jury duty, property value, traffic ticket, etc… YOU WILL BE JUDGED based on the way you dress. You know this, you can determine this. Put on some fucking dress pants and a dress shirt tucked in.

Also another item being proposed is requiring after high school that everyone spend 1 year doing social work such as: A year in the military, a year in peace corps, a year in volunteering, etc. I can understand and support that as well. Again, it helps bring people together.


Finance 101 class.
Pretty self-explanatory. Plenty of Americans are just dumb with money.
Learn the basics of amortization for when kids have a home to pay for. Learn to calculate interest costs. Learn the average return of the market for investing. Learn that while credit cards might be fun, paying 24.99% interest rates can be crushing. Learn how payday lenders is a dumb thing to do.
Learn how credit in general works. Things aren’t as simple as walking into a bank and saying “I have a business and I want some more money to increase my investment” … Why? What are your plans for expansion? What reason does someone have to invest in you?


This isn’t as much of a racism issue – but moreso a class issue
Some people are REALLY going to have a tough time realizing this and will get butt-hurt by it - but I assure you its true. When it comes to cops – and our economical quality of life… The problem is much less about race and more along the lines of class. I guarantee you that people are more likely to discriminate based on class than by race.
I REALLY don’t want to bring statistics into this – but you can find plenty of records of cops killing unarmed white men – putting their knees on their neck to death… and in general not having an ability to dig themselves out of an established family hole of poverty.

Feel free to watch the same thing everyone has seen an uproar for - in the context of a white male. Haven't heard of it? It's because no one cared because they were white. This is a problem.


Police Reform:
Without a doubt, we need some police reform as well. But with the right to carry laws in place, it is rather hard for a cop to pull someone over and not presume that if you tried to evade getting pulled over – you probably have a weapon as well. Why would you evade arrest?
It’s a complicated subject, but I think the crux of the issue is that police are putting themselves up on a pedestal. Instead of protecting and serving us as people, they are instead better than us – and we all need to pay traffic tickets to support them.
I fully admit that this is a problem that we need to address.


Black Self Reform
No matter how much everyone wants to avoid this topic, it has to be done. If you want REAL change, this is something that ABSOLUTELY must change. No question. The most significant change will have to come from within. Constantly telling people to vote for things like reparations is simply the soft bigotry of low expectations.
This also isn’t just a black thing – the whole concept of “I don’t need a man” movement is something that applies to ALL races (see chart below). Needless to say, it is undoubtable that not having a father figure will affect the generation of kids. Considering the trend though – and all the feminist movements of shitting on men – I don’t think this is going to improve.
1591993975752.png

The crime rates are much more heavily substantial in black areas as well. Again – denying this isn’t going to help. Coming together as people instead of separating is what will help.
Looting, pillaging, and rioting in general will accomplish nothing. No amount of posting retarded “WE DON’T OWN ANYTHING!” videos on YouTube will change that. Regardless of not “owning” anything, you are still destroying the property and jobs of your fellow brothers. So when 5 people you know can’t go to work the next day because the store has been destroyed – do you think the white (or Asian) rich owners give a fuck? The answer is no. No, they don’t. You know who does give a fuck? All the employees that work there.


Economic Reform - Stop handouts, Start Making People Feel Like They Have a Purpose
If we ever want to get serious about healthcare, and general well-being – then we need to help people that are fully capable of working… work. That means, we need low (or no cost) job training. That means instead of a bunch of programs that literally put a glass-ceiling above your head that says “You’re going to lose ALLLLL these benefits if you make over $x” and instead replace them with actual permanent solutions. Getting checks based on you not earning money is supposed to be temporary, but it is instead a permanent way to keep people poor.
I think it would be excellent if our government would instead create national programs with partnerships with companies. Anyone can enter these camps – and if you are able to successfully pass the boot-camp you would be guaranteed a middle-class job without a giant debt. That means, HVAC training, carpentry training, plumbing training, woodwork, etc.. No games of filling out stupid applications at a million places either.


Fighting amongst your kind is the problem:
Do you ever wonder why places like Amazon, Walmart, Target, etc… LOVE shit like Black Lives Matter? It’s because it diverts attention. It stops the conversation “What’s wrong with these working institutions?” and instead diverts into racial segregation that is entirely unnecessary. They love that shit. Let me repeat that…. THEY. LOVE. THAT. SHIT. They love for you to fight amongst your own class instead of fighting against them. They would KILL for – and love to donate $5 million or whatever it is – to Black Lives Matter foundations… as long as you continue to devote your focus on Blacks vs. Whites instead of asking “Why am I not being paid more?”

Companies. Do. NOT. Give a shit. They will have no problem doing what happened during the demise of our manufacturing here in the US. They will gladly leave the towns where they are burned at, and all that will be left is a town of folks with no real economic substance..
 
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pete6032

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2010
5,403
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Stop handouts, Start Making People Feel Like They Have a Purpose
Is there empirical research out there that says giving government handouts to people make them feel like they don't "have a purpose"?

Did you feel like you had less purpose when you got your 1200 donald dollars last month?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,938
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He's going to ignore your post and mine due to the 5 sentence minimum he requires.
Yes, but he said that he will "naturally ignore it" which we know isn't true, because that implies an established standard; and what we know of OP is that he absolutely has no standard for ignoring what he doesn't like, much less responding in ways that only ever violate these nascent standards of his.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Apparently typing 5 sentences IS SO HARD! Christ, and you wonder why tensions still exist :rolleyes:

The intelligence level of this forum can easily be displayed based on my original post. Pathetic. Fucking. Pathetic. Keep proving my point.

Reading is hard, yo!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,355
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I think, using the kind of thinking displayed in the OP, the answer is very simple to see:

Since we are born into a economic and cultural system that grant success to certain human abilities over others, those so advantaged will, owing to the suppression of any awareness they hate themselves, inevitably come to regard themselves as superior to compensate for those inadequacies and that the rules that tell themselves so and affirm that opinion will become their state religious dogma. And once their peculiar bigotry becomes connected unconsciously as universal truth rather than just applicable within an unjust system, they will be home free, smug and self righteously convinced they understand reality. And knowing bigots, and the close relationship they have with narcissism, you can expect them to devote themselves to discovering ways to crow about the sick system they are fit to dominate, that is until, of course, shit hits the fan.

The answer then is to change the system to one where children don't grow up learning to hate themselves in order to function. So what do we do with the incapacitated in our system, single mothers with kids, the ignorant, the uneducated, those whose will to succeed has been kicked out of them, who live with so much emotional pain they would do anything to escape. Those who can be helped must be cared for by those less damaged. Nothing like taking care of other people to prove you aren't totally worthless, but only if it doesn't go to your head.

And since people do not value what they don't pay for in some form, and the poor have no money to pay, ask for something of no real value in return but convince them that it is. pay people to do things that will make their lives better and build self respect. Put a price on doing in life what creates self respect.

The right wants to punish failure, the left to have compassion for the failed. The third way is knowing that failure is corrected neither by punishment or gift. Self respect is the result of being capacity, the love of all of creation in the absence of self.
 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
23,471
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Apparently typing 5 sentences IS SO HARD! Christ, and you wonder why tensions still exist :rolleyes:

The intelligence level of this forum can easily be displayed based on my original post. Pathetic. Fucking. Pathetic. Keep proving my point.

Reading is hard, yo!
.. lol
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
20,772
12,656
136
I see the op is getting the respect he has earned. Maybe his wife will find the loser that is stealing her shit out of the fridge at home. Maybe the OP will be able to go 6 hours without being being triggered. Maybe the OP will for once actually attempt to have an honest discussion. Maybe for once he won’t be afraid of women. Maybe he will stop losing his shit over people wanting to not be murdered by the police.

Oh who the fuck am I kidding......

That more than five sentences now fuck off.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,289
2,926
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I am going to respond point by point, but I have edited out much of your post just to make this a bit more condensed. I have tried very hard not to take anything out of context, and considering that anyone that wants can click on the little button and see the OP, I think it is fair.

Stop Racial Division. Stop grouping. Stop segregating. Stop "racial clubs".
So easy to say, so incredibly difficult to do.

The 'nonsense' of the political correctness that you are railing against is the best attempt we have ever had at actually accomplishing it.
It has done remarkably well, all thing considered. Is it a perfect solution? No. Is it better then what we had before? Hell yes.
Racists don't 'feed off' of political correctness, they were already racist. They were the ones in power all this time. They could have ended it at any time, but they are the ones causing it. No, they are fighting against it because it is working and ending their racist privilege. The only division it creates is with those that feel it is their right to separating others into groups and use that to oppress them.

People naturally want to self-segregate
There is no solution there. You simply said 'don't do that'. Here is a little nugget for you, ghetto's like chinatown (I'm using the word ghetto in it's technical meaning here: A group of people that bands together in a localized society for mutual benefit) form mostly because of racism against the minority group. Most of the time they don't want to live in a ghetto, it is just the most socially or economical feasible place for them to live, because other places push them out either socially, violently, or economically. This still goes on today. So, lets not blame the minorities for their isolation. The majority is who is imposing it.

Education is Important, Yo.
you’re going to have to tell people NO, you’re not made for advanced education. Seek a trade-skill.
I'm with you most of the way here. I think that we do need academic disciplines, so I would not rule out humanities or other non-workforce degrees, but perhaps we should set some quotas for our society paying for them. Only so many English majors a year, if you can't earn a position as a English major you can always pay for it yourself (with out a government backed loan).

But my main point on education reform is that we definitely need to reform in the sense of how schools are paid for.
We are in agreement here. We need to remove the highly local payment for schools and go to a either national or state level funding to even out the funding of schools.
It is going to ruffle a whole lot of feathers though. It is going to be politically difficult to do, which leads me to my next point.

I’ve seen school districts that have tons of money and tons of budget – yet they are still epic failures – so I’m not 100% sure it’s a money problem.
Money is just the limiting factor. No matter how good the rest of the system they are limited in how much they can accomplish if they can't afford to follow through. The higher level problem is that schools have largely become more about politics than education. Schools, education curriculum, and methodologies have become a pawn in a larger political power struggles. Largely our classrooms are not being lead by what works, but what is politically advantageous to the group currently in power.
It is a rather intractable problem, but if we want to solve it we need to remove the power of the politician to affect education. That means giving the school control over their own funding, and removing political influence from education curriculum. Just how to go about that I have no idea.

Civics class (and legal class)
They actually have this, and I think most students are required to take such a class. At least here in Texas they do. My 17 year old stepson was in such a class this year in his suburban public school. They covered much of what you talked about, along with a few other things like the practical matters of how banking and loans work, and how compounded interest works, and how to invest money. Trust me it is not a class he would choose to take.

The main message to teach the class though: You should dress appropriately.
While I agree with this to some extent, you forget it goes both ways. Probably no groups of people on the planet are more judgmental on that topic than a teenage peer group. They are well aware of this, it is just what group they are trying to fit into that matters. To most of them being see fitting into their peer group as more important than anything else, including making a good impression on a judge that is going to decide the course of their future. It is more about a mind that is not yet fully developed than a lack of education. Simply put, even the most introverted teenager tends to be hyper social to the point of self destruction. No class is going to fix that. I suspect the ones that have the emotional and social intelligence to be taught that have already figured it out for themselves long before such a class would be able to teach it to them.

Also another item being proposed is requiring after high school that everyone spend 1 year doing social work such as: A year in the military, a year in peace corps, a year in volunteering, etc. I can understand and support that as well. Again, it helps bring people together.
I could probably support this to some extent, assuming that it was not primarily the military that they went into (the problem with large standing armies is that politicians then feel that they should do something with them). We would need to create and expand civil services to do a lot of jobs that we are not doing now to use up this simply massive workforce you are talking about creating. I would also perhaps put a asterisk on this and say that if you go the collage path your service can be delayed until after you graduate, if for no other reason to get those skills in that workforce. Think of what we could do it nearly ever engineer that comes our of our universities worked for the civil corps of engineers for (at least) a year. We could even use this as a way to help people earn more advanced degrees.

Finance 101 class.
Pretty self-explanatory. Plenty of Americans are just dumb with money.
Also already done. The problem is that they are teaching it to teenagers that have no money, and no real concept of how much things cost compared to how much they will earn. My 17 year old took this class as well, and came out of it telling me all about how he intended to put 70% of his paycheck into various investments. Then the very next week asked me to "borrow" $100 because he already spent his paycheck (he has a job) on going out on dates with his girlfriend. He is a smart lad, he is just very inexperienced. In his mind those expenses were more pressing than saving, because right now that is what he is most passionate about and can't even contemplate something being more important to him in the future. I expect he has forgotten much of his enthusiasm for the wonders of compounded interest in the face of having a chance at getting into a cheerleaders pants.

This isn’t as much of a racism issue – but moreso a class issue
Some people are REALLY going to have a tough time realizing this and will get butt-hurt by it - but I assure you its true. When it comes to cops – and our economical quality of life… The problem is much less about race and more along the lines of class. I guarantee you that people are more likely to discriminate based on class than by race.
I REALLY don’t want to bring statistics into this – but you can find plenty of records of cops killing unarmed white men – putting their knees on their neck to death… and in general not having an ability to dig themselves out of an established family hole of poverty.
You are simply wrong here. Class discrimination is also a problem, but race is a pressing one right now. Yes, the people discriminate against class as well, but it is then compounded by their discriminate against race. That compounding is what you seem to always miss. Rich black men are still discriminated against, but they get off a lot easier in most cases because it has not been compounded by class. But class is a nebulous concept, while race is a solid concept. It is much easier to discriminate based on race. It tends to have much greater affect on the psyche. The problem with your argument can be summed up really simply. For your argument to be true then the racial percentages of prison inmates should roughly reflect the racial percentages of people by class. It is not even close. It is really hard to argue with that sort of obvious result. Even if you are trying to claim that there is something inherent about black people that makes them more prone to prison, then you are looking at a pretty drastic racial issue.

Police Reform:
This issue is massive, and you hit on a very, very small part of it. We have fostered a 'us vs them' attitude in our police for decades. We have armed them like solders, and talk about their job as if they are going to war. We have trained them as if they are supposed to enforce and control instead of serve and protect. Is it any wonder we ended up with a police force that puts the emphasis on force? On top of all this we have given them almost complete immunity from consequences. We have to make major changes. So many that it might only be possible to do by rebuilding from the ground up.

Black Self Reform
You are viewing all of this through a very narrow and heavily tented lens.
While I don't agree with it, the idea behind reparations is that a good part of the reason that so many of them are in poverty is because society has pushed them down into it, and given them no way out. Our society stole their labor and with it made themselves rich. Not a hundreds of years ago, but up until a few decades ago. Racial discrimination was so intense that it often left them just shy of slavery for much of the minority populations in the US. If a black person should start to get successful they were forcefully stomped down. They were literally run out of town. That was just a generation ago. They were denied the opportunity to build up any real power or wealth that they could use to protect their interests, so they were stuck. They figure that they are owed a little compensation for all that, and they might not be wrong.

The crime rates are much more heavily substantial in black areas as well.
How do you reconcile this with 'it's a class thing, not a race thing' you were just saying a few paragraphs ago?

Looting, pillaging, and rioting in general will accomplish nothing.
So far it has accomplished a whole lot. We are talking about these things aren't we? You just don't like that is accomplishes things. The fact is it works.

do you think the white (or Asian) rich owners give a fuck?
Yes, they certainly the hell give a fuck that their business was destroyed. What the hell type of argument is this?
The employees are working for someone else. That someone else was not employing them out of kindness. They were doing it to make themselves more wealthy on the labor of others. The first thing that always happens in a revolution is that the establishment is burnt down, often literally. This is not a revolution yet, it is just the recitative of this opera. Best if we not wait for the aria.

Economic Reform - Stop handouts, Start Making People Feel Like They Have a Purpose
So, your answer true corporate feudalism? Your only real purpose in this world is to make money for someone else?
Bullshit. If you want a real answer stop equating a person's worth with how much money they make and value people instead.
No one feels like they don't have a purpose because the doctor didn't charge him enough. Healthcare based on your income is reprehensible.
If you are trying to argue that we disincentive productive labor with social nets, well there is a simple answer, stop basing them on income.
The answer you are trying to grope your way around is universal basic income. Let people make their own purpose. Because trust me a job is a crappy thing to base your self worth on.


Fighting amongst your kind is the problem:
We can, and should, work on more than one problem at a time. I don't care that Amazon is happy that they are not currently in the crosshairs. They will be again soon enough. But Black Lives Matter is something that is important. It is worth fighting for equality. Once again how much you are paid is not the only metric that matters. Some people are literally fighting for their very right to survive.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Note: I will naturally ignore any posts that are < 5 sentences. If you’re too inept to read an argument and come up with your own counter-points or agreements, then I will naturally spend the same amount of time you spent on my post. Thank you for understanding.


Below are my points on some of the first steps we need to take if we ever hope to even BEGIN to fix racial issues that have been coming up recently. I understand some might emotionally disagree. I ask that instead of just posting your feelings that you instead post wit your thoughts.


Stop Racial Division. Stop grouping. Stop segregating. Stop "racial clubs".

This never helps. This never fixes anything. It simply sows division. Instead of coming together and identifying as humans, it instead focuses on our differences when the majority of us are 99% the same.
Things like "cultural appropriation" and other such nonsense is essentially the left's versions of racism because it seeks to prevent our cultures from coming together in a melting pot. So instead it sows division instead because "You're not allowed to do that". And thus you teach people that everyone is different instead of talking about how we are (in actuality) all the same.
This Is WHY and WHAT white racists feed off of. When others segregate – they will respond with segregation as well. When you keep proclaiming how we are so different, the white nationalists will naturally do the same.
I am going to respond to this point right here, for now. I'm not up to responding to all of them at the moment, and certainly not in one mammoth post.

Believe it or not, I agree with your key premise here, that the left's identity politics often divide rather than unite. One problem is that the left often confers a preferential "victim status" to certain groups, especially African Americans. This makes some people desire to identify as black. When you see mixed race (one white and one black parent) people who were raised to be culturally white, they virtually always prefer to identify as black. There must be some reason for this.

Other examples are why does someone like Rachel Dolezal, a pale skinned, blonde white girl get a tan, crimp her hair, say she's black, and make up fake stories of being a victim of discrimination? Or why does Jussie Smollett pretend to be a victim of lynching? It's too simplistic to say these are just bad people. They are, however, edge cases. But edge cases which say that something isn't right with the left's identity politics.

Where you lose me is towards the end, when you argue that these problems with the left's identity politics are causing more racism on the right. That may to be true, to a point, but you're ignoring the more important causation vector. Fringe identity politics on the left is of fairly recent pedigree, while white racism and white supremacy in the US dates back 500 years now. So who again started this?

It's more proper to view the extremes of the left as a reaction to extremes of racism on the right. Notice how the left's excesses seem to have gotten worse these past few years? Gee, I wonder why. Could it be because the right elected a racist asshole who, according to studies, won the election because of racial resentment more than anything else? Racism, especially among white southerners, is old as the hills. You can't put it all down to modern PC liberalism.

I see a feedback loop going on. Racism on the right makes people on the left want to be as anti-racist as possible, producing attitudes which can then make the racism on the right worse, which in turn....

There doesn't seem to be much room for color-blindness on either the right or left these days. Both sides are moving us away from the ideal of a post-racial society.

Someone needs to offer an olive branch. My view is that the racists started this shit long before the left started getting weird over it. So they can start with a gesture of good faith like not voting for Donald fucking Trump, which in my view was an act of deliberate provocation. Hey, at least it would be a start.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
13,289
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Believe it or not, I agree with your key premise here, that the left's identity politics often divide rather than unite.
I disagree. I think that the 'identity politics' is on the whole uniting us much more than it is dividing us. Sure some groups are being divided out, but those groups are self selecting to be divided. They are the groups that by and large profit the most by the divisions that identity politics are removing, and are therefore fighting against it. They want the division, and are doing everything in their power to maintain it. It only looks like the left is doing it because it is shining a light on the divisions that already existed, and those that want those divisions are angry about them being called out.

This is not a feedback loop, it is the death throes of a dying system of discrimination. They will stop trashing around eventually, and then the 'identity politics' will not be needed so much, because there won't be a need to protect people's identities because they will not longer be under attack.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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OP is pretty verbose and I’ll admit I got bored and stopped reading.
I will share some life experience I have.
I know a transgendered Woman. I have never thought of her as anything but a Woman.
Her views regarding things are really interesting, typically smart and kind. She is very intelligent.
She also has some views that are hard to understand and boarder line offensive depending on who you are.
For example:
To her cross dressers are clowns, they put on funny makeup, wear clothes that don’t fit them, wear funny shoes and act like someone else while in costume (not her exact words)
She has what most would consider strange views like Parents should alternate using his or her references for their kids until the child is old enough to say I am a boy or girl or both and understand what that means
She doesn’t like when gay couples take a male or female role in the relationship
She has some odd reproductive beliefs that I can’t explain because she is way smarter than me but it involved same sex reproduction.
She is incredibly well educated

So here’s my contribution to the thread. One person with weird beliefs is simply just that one person with weird beliefs. Regarding trans beliefs it typically is better to avoid them unless it is required.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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I disagree. I think that the 'identity politics' is on the whole uniting us much more than it is dividing us. Sure some groups are being divided out, but those groups are self selecting to be divided. They are the groups that by and large profit the most by the divisions that identity politics are removing, and are therefore fighting against it. They want the division, and are doing everything in their power to maintain it. It only looks like the left is doing it because it is shining a light on the divisions that already existed, and those that want those divisions are angry about them being called out.

This is not a feedback loop, it is the death throes of a dying system of discrimination. They will stop trashing around eventually, and then the 'identity politics' will not be needed so much, because there won't be a need to protect people's identities because they will not longer be under attack.
I don't know. It hasn't escaped me that liberals seem obsessed with creating a social taxonomy where people are placed into what seems like increasingly granular little boxes. It's just terrible how transgenders are treated! But you're ignoring that it's even worse for "black transgenders!" But it's even worse still for black mTf transgenders! Notice how it's important whose had it the worst, because we are creating a kind of reverse hierarchy where you gain status if you fit into what the left says is the lowest box in the traditional social spectrum.

And this system of pronouns and new words suggests that some on the left seem obsessed with placing a precise semantic label on everyone. Some day, we're going to have a pronoun for black gay left-handed overweight mentally disabled women. From New Jersey. I remember when it was, let people pick their own gender identity. If they want to be called she or he, that should be respected. I never had a problem with that. That was what, 5 years ago?

The problem here is that we're using semantics to put people in boxes, then signaling to people in certain boxes that they can tell everyone else to shut up because anyone not in their box can't possibly understand what they've been through and therefore can't hold a valid opinion. That is not a uniting influence. "You can never understand me" does not bring people together. It sets them apart.

There is an atmosphere of repression on the left right now. Comedians are saying they don't want to go to college campuses because woke culture has made edgy comedy impossible, and non-edgy comedy is a bore. Everyone who speaks or writes about race has to be very careful over what they say or write. Everyone. But most especially straight white males.

I'd rather have racist whites come out and admit to being somewhat racist. Then have a civilized conversation where we unpack the reasons for this. It always comes down to something irrational. But we can't have that conversation, can we? So the racists break down into those who are truly hardcore, who express it openly (the white supremacists) and those with some racial resentment but afraid to admit it, who act passive aggressively by voting for a bigot like Trump then claiming he isn't a racist.

Racism as I said long predates the excesses of the left, but the excesses are not necessarily helping either. And frankly, I don't see it going away soon even if the left moderates its tone. It's just been around for too long to disappear that fast.
 
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zinfamous

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I am going to respond to this point right here, for now. I'm not up to responding to all of them at the moment, and certainly not in one mammoth post.

Believe it or not, I agree with your key premise here, that the left's identity politics often divide rather than unite. One problem is that the left often confers a preferential "victim status" to certain groups, especially African Americans. This makes some people desire to identify as black. When you see mixed race (one white and one black parent) people who were raised to be culturally white, they virtually always prefer to identify as black. There must be some reason for this.
This is not at all confusing, though. For generations and to this day, being raised mixed is it's own stigma, and oftentimes quite worse. You are generally not accepted, equally, among either group, so there is a default status of "not with us" assigned to you, so you pretty much have to identify with where you choose. Oftentimes, and absolutely historically in this country, this is tied to the parents of the mixed child displeasing all of their pier groups and their parents, for getting into a mixed marriage. This causes generational family issues.

I would assume things are "better" on average now for sure, but I know that a buddy of mine, around the same age, had this experience growing up, and that was the 80s-90s. His parents had it rough. And he's pretty much as black as you can be just looking at him, and it's certainly how he identifies. It remains a plain fact in this country that if you "look black," you are black. It doesn't matter if you are mixed, but if your skin is whatever percentage black, you will be black. It isn't even always on you. That's the label you are given. I really don't care if some don't accept that is true, because it doesn't matter what they think. It's just true.

I can't accept this "there must be some reason for why people choose to identify one of the other race, when they are mixed" open question. There are many reasons. And you just have to spend some time in this country to understand that.
 
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cytg111

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I wouldnt know where to start and where to end with the fuckedupness of op.... whatever
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
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Along with civics, I suggest instruction in forensics. That's the debate and rhetoric study, not CSI. I was made aware of this by Joe Romm, who wrote a book about it; though there may be better books.

The idea is to teach kids both how to recognize rhetorical flourishes and how to use them in their own speeches. Apparently, aspects akin to assonance and alliteration are advantageous. ;) This is not just about minorities either; this is also about teaching people of all races to cut through political rhetoric to recognize who their best leaders can be.
 
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JEDIYoda

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Apparently typing 5 sentences IS SO HARD! Christ, and you wonder why tensions still exist :rolleyes:

The intelligence level of this forum can easily be displayed based on my original post. Pathetic. Fucking. Pathetic. Keep proving my point.

Reading is hard, yo!
Here let me dive in....
That wall of text was none of your doing!
That wall of text was none of your doing!
That wall of text was none of your doing!
That wall of text was none of your doing!
That wall of text was none of your doing!
I wouldnt know where to start and where to end with the fuckedupness of op.... whatever
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,661
3,138
126
Apparently typing 5 sentences IS SO HARD! Christ, and you wonder why tensions still exist :rolleyes:

The intelligence level of this forum can easily be displayed based on my original post. Pathetic. Fucking. Pathetic. Keep proving my point.

Reading is hard, yo!
actually everybody knows who they are dealing with and it is hard to laugh and type at the same time!
Yet your friend Taj or BlackAngst or UberNeuman might humor you....
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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This is not at all confusing, though. For generations and to this day, being raised mixed is it's own stigma, and oftentimes quite worse. You are generally not accepted, equally, among either group, so there is a default status of "not with us" assigned to you, so you pretty much have to identify with where you choose. Oftentimes, and absolutely historically in this country, this is tied to the parents of the mixed child displeasing all of their pier groups and their parents, for getting into a mixed marriage. This causes generational family issues.

I would assume things are "better" on average now for sure, but I know that a buddy of mine, around the same age, had this experience growing up, and that was the 80s-90s. His parents had it rough. And he's pretty much as black as you can be just looking at him, and it's certainly how he identifies. It remains a plain fact in this country that if you "look black," you are black. It doesn't matter if you are mixed, but if your skin is whatever percentage black, you will be black. It isn't even always on you. That's the label you are given. I really don't care if some don't accept that is true, because it doesn't matter what they think. It's just true.

I can't accept this "there must be some reason for why people choose to identify one of the other race, when they are mixed" open question. There are many reasons. And you just have to spend some time in this country to understand that.
Yeah, I spent some time here. Roughly all 50+ years of it.

I can buy that what you're saying is correct in many cases. But there are mixed race people who are light enough to pass for white who still identify as black. And I highly doubt all of them had problems fitting in because they were mixed race. Some did. Some didn't. All seem determined to identify with only one of the races. Pretty much without exception, as far as I can remember.

And you haven't addressed why a pale white blonde girl decides to grow up and pretend to be black. Or why a successful black actor thought the best way to further advance his career was to pretend he was lynched. The point about Smollett here isn't that fake hate crimes are common as people on the right seem to believe. It's really the question of why he thought this particular ruse would bring him positive attention and be a benefit to him. It's inescapable that without woke culture, doing this would never have occurred to him.

The multi-cultural ideal of the left directly encourages non-white people (but definitely not white people) to strongly identify with their race, and to actively view themselves as fundamentally different from people of other races. And it encourages the idea that cross-racial understanding is just not possible.

The idea of "cultural appropriation" is a misnomer because it actually means racial appropriation the way its used. It says that white people and white people only can't borrow from non-white cultures, but no one complains if Italians make French food or Russians wear traditional Polish garb on an occasion, or that they make hamburgers in Beijing or play baseball in Japan. But if a white guy wears a sombrero on Halloween, he's a racist. Doesn't matter why they did it, if they did it as homage or just because they like it, it's still racist.

Worse, there are people who are openly hostile to "color blind liberals" based on the notion that such a person is denying reality and is therefore an enabler, as bad or worse than the racists themselves. I can provide you links to people saying this if you like. There was a black college professor saying it on Trevor Noah just last year.

This is not a path to a post-racial society.
 
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HomerJS

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Feb 6, 2002
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Why did the OP create this since he doesn't believe systemic racism exists? Because of that I refuse to read because of my troll-assumption radar going off.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,938
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Hey OP, will you watch Dave Chapelle's new special posted 2 days ago?

I suppose you'll just tell him "to shut up and make you laugh," right?

You refer to him a lot. I take that you think he is always "on your side." Which is hilarious, as I also get the distinct impression that you've never actually listened to a word of his.
 

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