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NewYork Clerk Attacked For Refusing To Sell Beer For Food Stamps

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davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
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You are talking about taking stamps to mama-san.

Guess what? There havent been stamps in about a decade.

Once again your information and worldview is based off of lies, not reality.

Do you ever stop to think? This is not even possible...well maybe in the right wing world she is swiping peoples EBT cards down the crack of her ass to get change for illicit EBT sales on the streetcorners?
What I assume he is referring to is taking the EBT card to a 'friendly' corner store that will swipe it and give you the .60 to .80 cents on the dollar. I know this is done in Seattle.

You really think just because they switched from stamps to EBT cards the fraud would stop? Lol, you might want to retract your 'lies' comment directed at xjohn.

For the record, I don't think the program should be ended by any means, just pointing this out that fraud still exists w/ EBT cards, plus they get their money faster too!
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
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This thread has no racism from me, an innocent man had his face slashed over food stamps. I came up with a way to fix the problem
So if we were to get rid of all tax based food assistance programs, do you think crime against food store employees would go down, or go up?

Think for a moment... hell take an hour.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
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Anecdote is when you go out once and see it being abused once. When you can go out everyday and see it being left and right, it stops being anecdote and becomes Reality. At that point people saying 'its anecdotal' need to come up with an explanation for the widespread observed abuse, and stop hiding behind 'its anecdotal'. I still have not seen such an explanation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review

Have a nice day!
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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Yeah, we have that. It's when everyone you know in the area has repeatedly seen the same thing again and again. That's why when we in Reality hear "It's only 1%" or something so insane, we just laugh. It's the same as Baghdad Bob believing the Americans are getting slaughtered when M1's are rolling in behind him. Everyone in Reality knows the truth, those in the official "know" somehow....well, lets say have a different view. Funny huh?
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
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Yeah, we have that. It's when everyone you know in the area has repeatedly seen the same thing again and again. That's why when we in Reality hear "It's only 1%" or something so insane, we just laugh. It's the same as Baghdad Bob believing the Americans are getting slaughtered when M1's are rolling in behind him. Everyone in Reality knows the truth, those in the official "know" somehow....well, lets say have a different view. Funny huh?
How often have you seen someone use the card correctly?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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How often have you seen someone use the card correctly?
Well, I give some leeway in the use of correctly. For example, if I had my way, they'd be able to buy bulk ground beef (80/20), bulk chicken (breast or drumstick), vegetables, generic TP, paper towels, generic everything else.

However until system is setup and enforced electronically, that can't happen. So when I see brand stuff being bought, I'm somewhat accepting of it. When someone has normal shopping being done and then throws in sh1t they shouldn't have, I deem that abuse. I don't count the stuff they should have as abuse, but, they abused the card with buying something improper.

So given the above...very few times have I see the card used correctly. I've never seen it used correctly at a gas station or convenience store. Ever. And with the gas we burn as a family (I usually fill our three vehicles up), plus our indulgences, I'm in (the same ones) a lot.

Unless someone is going to make the argument it's the same people I'm seeing abuse it each time (I'm at these places at very variable times, so that's highly unlikely), my and mine observations stand for me. To convince me, someone needs to really explain to me how I'm not seeing what I'm seeing, hearing what I'm hearing.

That's going to be one tough sell, but I welcome someone to try...
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
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Anecdote is when you go out once and see it being abused once. When you can go out everyday and see it being left and right, it stops being anecdote and becomes Reality. At that point people saying 'its anecdotal' need to come up with an explanation for the widespread observed abuse, and stop hiding behind 'its anecdotal'. I still have not seen such an explanation.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
 

etrigan420

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2007
1,723
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Well, I give some leeway in the use of correctly. For example, if I had my way, they'd be able to buy bulk ground beef (80/20), bulk chicken (breast or drumstick), vegetables, generic TP, paper towels, generic everything else.

However until system is setup and enforced electronically, that can't happen. So when I see brand stuff being bought, I'm somewhat accepting of it. When someone has normal shopping being done and then throws in sh1t they shouldn't have, I deem that abuse. I don't count the stuff they should have as abuse, but, they abused the card with buying something improper.

So given the above...very few times have I see the card used correctly. I've never seen it used correctly at a gas station or convenience store. Ever. And with the gas we burn as a family (I usually fill our three vehicles up), plus our indulgences, I'm in (the same ones) a lot.

Unless someone is going to make the argument it's the same people I'm seeing abuse it each time (I'm at these places at very variable times, so that's highly unlikely), my and mine observations stand for me. To convince me, someone needs to really explain to me how I'm not seeing what I'm seeing, hearing what I'm hearing.

That's going to be one tough sell, but I welcome someone to try...
I've *never* seen anyone abuse an EBT card, therefore it doesn't happen.


See how easy that was?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Not good enough. I literally see it with my own eyes. There's a Pepsi, Cheetos, and Snickers on the counter. There's the Links card. There's the person walking out the door with their stuff. Don't send me a wiki link, explain how that is being allowed.

I've *never* seen anyone abuse an EBT card, therefore it doesn't happen.

See how easy that was?
You live in an area with high usage? If so you've got some really admirable folks there or you are not very observant (or, you don't define abuse like I do).

Question: If someone puts a Pepsi on the register and pays for it with their EBT card, do you define that as abuse?

Chuck
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
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Not good enough. I literally see it with my own eyes. There's a Pepsi, Cheetos, and Snickers on the counter. There's the Links card. There's the person walking out the door with their stuff. Don't send me a wiki link, explain how that is being allowed.
That's exactly how confirmation bias works. Confirmation bias is basically a result of human brains being really good at figuring out patterns in things, but unfortunately once we've noticed a pattern, we notice/remember things that fit that pattern clearly and don't notice things that don't. For example, if I was convinced that guns are evil, I'd be much much more likely to notice news articles about people shooting others, while not noticing the many many times when guns don't cause problems, or even help solve problems.

It's not a matter of malice, or stupidity, or willful ignorance, it's an unfortunate side effect of how human brains work. Scientists are as susceptible to it as everyone, which is why double blind studies are necessary when possible - if you have a study to test a drug where the subjects don't know if they're given a placebo or a real drug, but the scientists do, you still get a biased result compared to if the scientists also don't know whether they're placebos or not. There are lots of studies illustrating this that I can look up if you want.

I'm not saying that you're not seeing people abusing EFT cards or food stamps or whatever, I'm sure you are. I'm also not saying you're being willfully ignorant or anything. But statistics - while possible to gather poorly, and shouldn't be trusted just because they're numbers - are much much more reliable than personal experiences because of confirmation bias. If 1,000 people in a store are using EFT, and three of them are blatantly abusing the system and the rest aren't, you're not going to notice and remember the 9,997 - but those 3 are probably going to stick in your memory and (rightly) piss you off. The problem comes in when we advocate policy based on the idea of a huge amount of abuse, while policing those 3 might well cost more than the very frustrating fraud they're perpetrating. That's why we need to rely not on our experiences to judge these things, but larger studies - preferably by outside groups as impartial as possible, though of course that's never 100% in truth.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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I understand what CB is, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is when I repeatedly see/hear from trusted people abuse, not 3 out of 1000 times but 500 out of 1000 times, at what point does it go from the CB/anecdotal dismissal to Reality? For me, personally, with my own two eyes, I'm well past - my estimate - 70-80 cases of abuse out of the 100 or so Links purchases I've witnessed. If I include friends and family members discussing/bitching about this, I'm into the hundreds.

I'm still into CB/anecdotal range at that point?

Chuck
 

berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
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I understand what CB is, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is when I repeatedly see/hear from trusted people abuse, not 3 out of 1000 times but 500 out of 1000 times, at what point does it go from the CB/anecdotal dismissal to Reality? For me, personally, with my own two eyes, I'm well past - my estimate - 70-80 cases of abuse out of the 100 or so Links purchases I've witnessed. If I include friends and family members discussing/bitching about this, I'm into the hundreds.

I'm still into CB/anecdotal range at that point?

Chuck
Yes, because I can't trust your numbers. The whole point of CB is that you would (in good faith) estimate 500 out of 1000 even if it was much much lower than that, not because you're unusually bad at estimating, but just because it's how our minds work.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,583
314
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I understand what CB is, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is when I repeatedly see/hear from trusted people abuse, not 3 out of 1000 times but 500 out of 1000 times, at what point does it go from the CB/anecdotal dismissal to Reality? For me, personally, with my own two eyes, I'm well past - my estimate - 70-80 cases of abuse out of the 100 or so Links purchases I've witnessed. If I include friends and family members discussing/bitching about this, I'm into the hundreds.

I'm still into CB/anecdotal range at that point?

Chuck
Doesn't matter, its not scientific, and can;t be validated as there is no methodology to replicate.

And how come these businesses are allowing these alleged purchases?
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
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Still waiting for an answer to this.
You will never get an (honest) answer to that question, besides, you already know the answer anyway.

I am starting to believe Mono's theory that he is some troll trying to make conservatives look stupid. He does not back up any of his overly simplistic statements, which are always a single sentence without a period, with any logic or substance.

Either that or he is brand new to the internet and set on a crusade to expose the world, because only he sees everything how it really is.

It's serious bidness man, we know that because he always chooses the red angry face emoticon for his threads, rather than the default like 99% of other users here.
 
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chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
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Yes, because I can't trust your numbers. The whole point of CB is that you would (in good faith) estimate 500 out of 1000 even if it was much much lower than that, not because you're unusually bad at estimating, but just because it's how our minds work.
Then we can agree to disagree. If I go hang out tonight say at the BP down at Western and Steger, where there - to me - there is a higher amount of Links users vs other businesses I frequent, I already know I'm not going to get .03% abuse. I'm not going to get 3% abuse. Not going to get 30% abuse. This is what I'm trying to get across to you: the % abusage is so high, your CB premise doesn't hold up.

If you dont want to trust that, because you feel I'm lying and/or inaccurate, that's fine, I understand, I'm some schmoe on the internet. For me though, the abuse numbers are so bad, someone is going to have to have a hell of a case to get me to change my mind.

Chuck
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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Doesn't matter, its not scientific, and can;t be validated as there is no methodology to replicate.
It might not matter to you, it matters to me though. That's fine if that's not important to others, it obviously is to me.

And how come these businesses are allowing these alleged purchases?
What do you mean allowing? They're not allowing anything, they're serving paying customers and making money. The person ringing up these folks has a high degree of likelihood to be using themselves. The only way to stop abuse is to treat it like alcohol purchases to underage minors. There is hardly anyone bending the rules on that because the penalties are so severe, both personally for the person ringing it up, and the business owner.

Chuck
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,583
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It might not matter to you, it matters to me though. That's fine if that's not important to others, it obviously is to me.
Fair enough. But its tough to talk about an institutional problem when it seems highly specific.

What do you mean allowing? They're not allowing anything, they're serving paying customers and making money. The person ringing up these folks has a high degree of likelihood to be using themselves. The only way to stop abuse is to treat it like alcohol purchases to underage minors. There is hardly anyone bending the rules on that because the penalties are so severe, both personally for the person ringing it up, and the business owner.

Chuck
Have you reported this obvious fraud?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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Fair enough. But its tough to talk about an institutional problem when it seems highly specific.
It must be highly specific to the Chicagoland area then, because pretty much anyone I know who doesn't live in a daze has seen it first hand. Can you understand why I push back on highly specific vs. institutional when if it was not institutional, there is no way We'd be seeing this much abuse? If it was highly specific it'd be one off, highly infrequent, most of the people I know (that's a broad spectrum) wouldn't have observed it themselves?

Have you reported this obvious fraud?
Again, report it to who? The people working for the system that have family members abusing it? The people working for the system who are neighbors with these people? Good friends with these people? The System is going to do what if I report the abuse?

The System already knows about the abuse. How many Links purchases at gas stations could possibly be water? Go into a gas station and look what they have for sale. What in there should be allowed on the public dole? Water. If the person is diabetic, maybe a snack. We must have one massive and systemic diabetic problem with Links card users.

The System already knows dude...it doesn't care. It's setup to sate those who are on it so there's not social unrest, not inflame that same population.

Chuck
 
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davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
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Better that they buy Colt .45 beer instead of Colt .45 handguns!:rolleyes:
I understand your point, and don't want those on food assistance to buy alkyhol with it. But, a drunk behind the wheel can kill just many, if not more, than a Colt .45 loaded to the max with 6 bullets.

Just sayin...
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
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Why are muslims selling alcohol in the first place? I thought it was against their religion.
And cheetos and chips are perfectly fine to buy with foodstamps, they are allowed by the rules. Trying to buy some hot soup on a cold day, now that is a violation of the rules.

Those of you upset about the abuse of food stamps have no idea of the level of disclosure of personal information required to qualify for food stamps, in addition to being fingerprinted. I recommend an equally intrusive process for anyone getting gov benefits, such as a mortgage interest deduction, or child tax credits. Funny that only the poorest and most needy are subject to such an intrusive process.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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Why are muslims selling alcohol in the first place? I thought it was against their religion.
Because they like money too.

And cheetos and chips are perfectly fine to buy with foodstamps, they are allowed by the rules.
W.T.F.??? No. Hell No.

Trying to buy some hot soup on a cold day, now that is a violation of the rules.
Buy bulk soup for far cheaper, heat (likely also subsidized) yourself, save the public money. Sounds much better to me as a taxpayer.

Those of you upset about the abuse of food stamps have no idea of the level of disclosure of personal information required to qualify for food stamps, in addition to being fingerprinted. I recommend an equally intrusive process for anyone getting gov benefits, such as a mortgage interest deduction, or child tax credits. Funny that only the poorest and most needy are subject to such an intrusive process.
Not a problem, where do I sign up for free mortgage or having my future kids subsidized? One or two days at the local benefits location, while I'm out of work? Damn...that's going to cut into my schedule.

Unreal....
 
Nov 29, 2006
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Bah, in most cities you can sell them for cash at 60 to 80 cents on the dollar within a couple blocks of picking them up. It was amazing to watch in the Tenderloin in SF, it was an assembly line, pick up your foodies, walk outside sell foodies, walk to crack/heroin dealer, stop on corner and shoot/smoke dope.
Unregulated free market? Sounds rosy.
 

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