Newsreport: Video is said to show U.S. troops burned

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: DonVito
So I take it I can count this as yet another thread in which "ProfJohn" has trolled and run by mischaracterizing the treatment of US detainees (a topic that is arguably irrelevant to this topic anyway), then refusing to acknowledge the reality when I point it out. Great. At least we all know what we're dealing with.

Originally posted by: DonVito
This is unfortunate, and despicable behavior. That said, the actions of these extremists does not and cannot allow us to rationalize our own torture of detainees, contrary to the pablum "profjohn" keeps posting. Profjohn, you have never so much as acknowledged something I have posted repeatedly: more than 110 detainees have died in US custody, and DoD itself admits that more than 30 of these deaths were actual or suspected homicides, including the death of the Iraqi general who led their Air Force, who died from blunt-force trauma to the chest during interrogation.

Obviously our enemy is ruthless and violent. I in no way excuse their behavior in this instance. I think it's pathetic, however, that you would use this as a rationalization for our own torture - it's actually very much like al Qaeda's rationalizing their own conduct as retaliation for the rape and murder committed by Steven Green and company. Curiously, "profjohn" seems completely ignorant of that crime, since he implies the rape victim is still alive - in fact, she and her entire family are dead, allegedly murdered by Steven Green and his colleagues, who are no doubt also "brave soldiers" in profjohn's world. This is one seriously ignorant "professor."

I will also point out that I fail to see how desecration of a body is torturous - those men couldn't feel anything when they were dragged and burned. That doesn't make it OK, but it's not torture to abuse a corpse. Also, as members of an occupying force, the victims here were at least legitimate military targets, unlike Steven Green's rape victim and her family.

Ok Don, 110 detainees have died in US custody, are you happy now?
30 homicides... good, arrest the men who did the crimes and treat them like criminals.

I created this post to illustrate the absurdity of people and the "we can not torture them otherwise they will have an excuse to treat our soldiers bad" news for these people, they don't give a damn about our soldiers. We can send every terrorist we catch on a 2 week vacation to Disney World and they would still be burning and beheading Americans, Europeans and anyone else they can get their hands on.

On Waterboarding, having watched the Brian Ross segment on it and knowing what is done I would not object to using it on certain people. Mainly people who have information that can save the lives of Americans. This is something we can disagree on, just like many in the CIA disagree on it.

BTW: I never implied that the woman is alive. In case you do not know that under Islamic law in some places it is not rape unless the woman can produce four witnesses. And if she can not do that she can then be charged with slander, or adultery. Imagine a female going to the police because she is raped, when she can't prove it the police arrest her for having sex with a married man and then she is sentenced to death by stoning, it can happen.

In April 2002 a stoning verdict was reported in south-western Pakistan. Apparently, Zafran Bibi who originally had accused her brother-in-law of rape, had been convinced by the police to admit that she had committed adultery. In order to prove the rape, four male witnesses would have been necessary as well.

"I will also point out that I fail to see how desecration of a body is torturous - those men couldn't feel anything when they were dragged and burned. That doesn't make it OK, but it's not torture to abuse a corpse"

Ahh... so burning a body is ok, but flushing a Koran down the toilet is not?(The Koran thing never happened)

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Jesus, debating with you seems to principally consist of parsing one endless stream of non sequiturs. What is your actual profession (I find it hard to believe that a true professor could so consistently miss the point, and fail to know the difference between "their" and "they're")?

If, as you say, you created this post to articulate the idea that the Iraqi insurgents will treat our troops badly regardless of their conduct, you've failed. Again, I strongly disapprove of desecrating these corpses, but it was done specifically in retaliation for the murders committed by Steven Green and friends. Moreover, these people are plainly pissed that we're there in the first place. I can't stand President Bush, but if a foreign power waged war against the US, deposed him, and stuck around as an occupying force, I wouldn't be especially philosophical about it either.

As for the issue of why I find torture unacceptable, I think you are forgetting that we don't ONLY wage war against Iraqi insurgents. You'll notice that in this torture debate, the people standing up AGAINST torture, whether the debate is here in this forum or in the Senate Armed Services Committee, are veterans or active-duty service members (including all four current Judge Advocates General), whereas the ones who aren't bothered by our torture tend to be enthisiastic bystanders like you and "Specop007."

I also think the war in Iraq is unique, in that it's an offensive war we undertook pretty much solely to enact regime change. I fail to see how we can do this and maintain any kind of moral high ground if we then subject our prisoners to torture and humiliation, as we've done.

The whole issue of how rape victims are treated is just gratuitous Islam-bashing by you, and has exactly nothing to do with this topic. Moreover, I'm quite sure you're inaccurate when you claim you knew that the 14-year-old rape victim, Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi, had been murdered by Steven Green (along with her parents and 5-year-old sister). This is what you posted:

I wonder if this woman they claim was raped produced 4 male witnesses as prescribed under Islamic law? If not they can charge her with slander and adultery, at which point she can be "stoned to death" nice people we are dealing with here.

I'll also point out that:

a) You haven't shown that this practice existed where Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi was killed (in fact, I don't believe it did - Iraq under Saddam was no picnic, but it was a secular country); and

b) Steven Green, SGT Paul E. Cortez, SPC James P. Barker, PFC Jesse V. Spielman and PFC Bryan L. Howard aren't "nice people" either.

 

[DealMonkey]

Exactly DV. What the "Prof" (notice my air quotes there) seems to gloss over, is the fact that many people object to the U.S. engaging in torture on principle alone. The U.S. engaging in torture, no matter how limited, brings us down to the level of the terrorists and erodes our moral basis for war. Regardless of the fact that Iraq in particular has no moral basis.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Exactly DV. What the "Prof" (notice my air quotes there) seems to gloss over, is the fact that many people object to the U.S. engaging in torture on principle alone. The U.S. engaging in torture, no matter how limited, brings us down to the level of the terrorists and erodes our moral basis for war. Regardless of the fact that Iraq in particular has no moral basis.

Is waterboarding the only method we use that you have any objection to?

(out of the methods publically listed of course)

well?