News Alerts -- Air Force Chief of Staff resigns

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
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Apparently it was due to a power struggle between SecDef Gates and AF upper level staffers. More "resignations" are expected this week.

A lot of embedded links in the article on more specifics

The Air Force's civilian and uniformed leaders are being booted out of the Pentagon, according to Inside Defense and Air Force Times. Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael "Buzz" Moseley has resigned, and Secretary Michael W. Wynne is next.

The move isn't exactly a shocker. For months, the Air Force's leadership has been on the brink of open conflict with Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England. In the halls of the Air Force's chiefs, the talk has been largely about the threats posed by China and a resurgent Russia. Gates wanted the service to actually focus on the wars at hand, in Iraq and Afghanistan. "For much of the past year I?ve been trying to concentrate the minds and energies of the defense establishment on the current needs and current conflicts," he told the Heritage Foundation. "In short, to ensure that all parts of the Defense Department are, in fact, at war."

Last fall, the Pentagon's civilian chiefs shot down an Air Force move to take over almost all of the military's big unmanned aircraft. "There has to be a better way to do this," Moseley complained at the time. Things only got more tense when Gates said that the future of conflict is in small, "asymmetric" wars -- wars in which the Air Force takes a back seat to ground forces. Then Gates noted that the Air Force's most treasured piece of gear, the F-22 stealth fighter, basically has no role in the war on terror. And when a top Air Force general said the service was planning on buying twice as many of the jets -- despite orders from Gates and the rest of the civilian leadership -- he was rebuked for "borderline insubordination."

Relations between Gates and the Air Force chiefs soured further when the Defense Secretary called for more spy drones to be put into the skies above Iraq and Afghanistan. The Air Force complained that all those extra flight hours were turning the robo-plane's remote pilots into virtual "prisoners." Gates then publicly chastised the service during the drone build-up, comparing it to "pulling teeth."

But, according to Air Force Times, "the last straw appears to be a [daming] report on nuclear weapons handling... [that] critical report convinced Gates that changes must be made."

According to the report, "the service mistakenly shipped four ballistic missile detonators -- instead of helicopter batteries -- to Taiwan," Inside Defense reports. "The incident occurred three years ago, but was discovered in March."

Last fall, the Air Force's 5th Bomb Wing lost track of six nuclear warheads. Then, in mid-May, the service flunked a nuclear surety inspection, when security personnel couldn't even be bothered to stop playing video games on their cell phones. Now, it looks like Moseley and Wynne has some serious time to play with, themselves.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
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AW OH! I see more disgruntled tell all books upcoming.

Wars, what wars, we have an occupation going on in Afganistan and Iraq. Supposedly supporting the local governments, but that may be a farce. See Bush's treaty.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Sounds like the Air Force has some serious problems.
Yeah the Douchebag who is their Commander and Chief and his hatchet man Gates.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,040
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Sounds like the Air Force has some serious problems.

Stop drawing conclusions or having opinions pop into your mind or use them immediately as clues that the truth is 180 degrees away. Your barn maker put your weather vane with it's chicken head pointing south.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Sounds like the Air Force has some serious problems.

We have an Air Force?

It's been all ground forcs since "Shock & Awe".

Actually I think S&A was carried out by the Navy?

No. We have been using precision strikes from the Air Force, Navy, Army helicopters, and drones (controlled by the AF if I'm not mistaken) in Iraq and Afghanistan. Remember the air strike that killed Al-Zarqawi? That was Air Force F-16s.

This sounds like a major disagreement between military leaders on the future and direction of the Air Force. Not the first time that this has happened with a military branch and it won't be the last.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
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Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Now, it looks like Moseley and Wynne has some serious time to play with, themselves.

That last sentence would be more accurate if the author had deleted the last comma. :p
 

Skitzer

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2000
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Sounds like the Air Force has some serious problems.
Yeah the Douchebag who is their Commander and Chief and his hatchet man Gates.

Typical thoughtless answer. The AF has been having major problems long before Gates took over. I am retired military (22 years) and I have a son in the AF so I speak from experience.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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I don't have enough information on the current issues to make any judgments yet. The Air Force has always presented themselves as the superior service branch, and fought zealously to maintain control of as many assets as possible.

In the past, the AF has:

taken control of missile programs run by the Army and Navy

claimed that future wars would be nuclear and therefore there was no need of an army

claimed the Navy was unnecessary because bombers and missiles could attack any place the Navy could, and all of the places they could not

fought the Army having helos and fought even harder against them having armed ones

The AF also has a vested interest in keeping a large inventory of piloted aircraft as it keeps their service officer heavy. Remote piloted aircraft opens the door not only to enlisted men (with several supervised simultaneously by a single officer) as "pilots", but but makes it difficult to protest other services (even the Coast Guard) having what amounts to attack and surveillance capabilities of their own.

This may be interesting to follow.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Sounds like the Air Force has some serious problems.

Stop drawing conclusions or having opinions pop into your mind or use them immediately as clues that the truth is 180 degrees away. Your barn maker put your weather vane with it's chicken head pointing south.

:laugh:
 

mundane

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2002
5,603
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Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
[...]

The AF also has a vested interest in keeping a large inventory of piloted aircraft as it keeps their service officer heavy. Remote piloted aircraft opens the door not only to enlisted men (with several supervised simultaneously by a single officer) as "pilots", but but makes it difficult to protest other services (even the Coast Guard) having what amounts to attack and surveillance capabilities of their own.

This may be interesting to follow.

Each of the branches has their own UAV programs, and there is strong pressure (from both above and the AF) to consolidate into one branch.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I was never terribly impressed by Wynne though Gen Moseley made some good decisions from what I recall (don't remember any bad ones). From what I read, though, Moseley's actions with the defense sector raised the spector of illegal influence which is particularly sensitive in the Air Force after the Boeing debacle several years ago.

I applaud Gates for not taking any sh*t. He's made some strong decisions, but I don't sense the kind of rancor that came with Rumsfeld's similar decisions, primarily because most people seem to agree with Gates. There have been some big failures within DoD (Walter Reed, for instance), and Gates doesn't seem to shy away from taking command and fixing things. I can't say that I agree with him 100%, but he's doing a very good job from my point of view.

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Sounds like the Air Force has some serious problems.

We have an Air Force?

It's been all ground forcs since "Shock & Awe".

Actually I think S&A was carried out by the Navy?

The depth of your ignorance is breathtaking at times. Try Googling: C-5, C-17, C-130, RQ-1, Global Hawk, F-16, F-15, B-1B, B-52, A-10, RC-135, KC-135. Never mind the thousands of Airman on the ground in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait, and Qatar ensuring that air operations move constantly and performing "ILU" jobs for the Army. :roll:
 

Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: AndrewR
The depth of your ignorance is breathtaking at times. Try Googling: C-5, C-17, C-130, RQ-1, Global Hawk, F-16, F-15, B-1B, B-52, A-10, RC-135, KC-135. Never mind the thousands of Airman on the ground in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait, and Qatar ensuring that air operations move constantly and performing "ILU" jobs for the Army. :roll:

Or Air Force Special Tactics. Combat Controllers, Pararescue, and AC-130 gunships played a HUGE role in Afghanistan (Bagram, Tora Bora, Takur Ghar, etc.), both independently and in cooperation with Special Forces, Delta, Rangers, and SEALs.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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mundane

Each of the branches has their own UAV programs, and there is strong pressure (from both above and the AF) to consolidate into one branch.

Part of my point is that all of the services want the equipment and the AF does not want that.

I see no particular need or benefit in consolidating everything under the AF. Even training can be done at facilities shared by all of the services as has already been done successfully with other training programs.

Different services have different needs and requirements for their operations. Do you think that the AF takes into design considerations specifics for say, naval deployment, i.e. salt air/water exposure, storage, TO/L from rolling, pitching decks, adding ASW or sea rescue components, etc.?
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
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Apparently, the resignations were demanded because of nuclear weapon snafus.

link

WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Robert Gates ousted the Air Force?s top military and civilian leaders Thursday, holding them to account in a historic Pentagon shake-up after embarrassing nuclear mix-ups.

Gates announced at a news conference that he had accepted the resignations of Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Moseley and Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne ? a highly unusual double firing.

Gates said his decision was based mainly on the damning conclusions of an internal report on the mistaken shipment to Taiwan of four Air Force electrical fuses for ballistic missile warheads. And he linked the underlying causes of that slip-up to another startling incident: the flight last August of a B-52 bomber that was mistakenly armed with six nuclear-tipped cruise missiles.

The report drew the stunning conclusion that the Air Force?s nuclear standards have been in a long decline, a ?problem that has been identified but not effectively addressed for over a decade.?

Gates said an internal investigation found a common theme in the B-52 and Taiwan incidents: ?a decline in the Air Force?s nuclear mission focus and performance? and a failure by Air Force leaders to respond effectively.

In a reflection of his concern about the state of nuclear security, Gates said he had asked a former defense secretary, James Schlesinger, to lead a task force that will recommend ways to ensure that the highest levels of accountability and control are maintained in Air Force handling of nuclear weapons.

Air Force Times - 5th Bomb Wing flunks nuclear inspection

The 5th Bomb Wing at Minot Air Force Base, N.D., has failed its much-anticipated defense nuclear surety inspection, according to a Defense Threat Reduction Agency report.

DTRA inspectors gave the wing an ?unsatisfactory? grade Sunday after uncovering many crucial mistakes during the weeklong inspection, which began May 17. They attributed the errors primarily to lack of supervision and leadership among security forces.

Inspectors from Air Combat Command also participated, but the Air Force refused to provide specifics on their findings.

Security broke down on multiple levels during simulated attacks across the base, including against nuclear weapons storage areas, according to the DTRA report, a copy of which was obtained by Air Force Times.

Inspectors watched as a security forces airman played video games on his cell phone while standing guard at a ?restricted area perimeter,? the DTRA report said. Meanwhile, another airman nearby was ?unaware of her duties and responsibilities? during the exercise.

Yeah, I can see the hammer coming down over this.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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Well that's bad. Maybe USAF really is becoming more tech nerdy? I know I'd make that same nuclear mix-up. ;)
 

Grunt03

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2000
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SecDef Gates is in a position that he must make very tough calls. I have served the past 24 years in the Marines, I have worked closely with all of the branches of service. I have operated with the Army Rangers and Delta, I have trained with the Seals and have been in Reconnaissance units. I am not the formost expert, but my interaction with the airforce has been disappointing.:frown:

I think the largest problem is that the airforce is a 9 to 5 job, it a shell game. Yes I know that they provide a specific as each service does. but they lack certain things that define a military service. I think for way to long they have had their way and have gotten very comfortable and know it. I think it is time to down size the Airforce, send the fighter assets to the Navy.

I for one am very glad to see them get the headline news coverage instaed of the insane coverage of Marine's passing out coins.

Lets forcast up coming events - he resigns, writes a book, becomes an anchor for a news channel then becomes a consultant for one of the major builders of aircraft supplying....
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
mundane

Each of the branches has their own UAV programs, and there is strong pressure (from both above and the AF) to consolidate into one branch.

Part of my point is that all of the services want the equipment and the AF does not want that.

I see no particular need or benefit in consolidating everything under the AF. Even training can be done at facilities shared by all of the services as has already been done successfully with other training programs.

Different services have different needs and requirements for their operations. Do you think that the AF takes into design considerations specifics for say, naval deployment, i.e. salt air/water exposure, storage, TO/L from rolling, pitching decks, adding ASW or sea rescue components, etc.?

The Navy doesn't want armed UAVs/UCAVs/whatever today's acronym is. There was a Joint armed UAV program, called J-UCAS, that was cancelled because the Navy pulled out. Originally, I thought it was because of design creep making the program too heavy, but subsequently, the Navy has pursued a large UAV for future deployment that is solely unarmed, which seems oddly stupid to me. However, it appears that the Navy manned aircraft mentality is even more entrenched than in the Air Force which has now accepted and is using the Reaper as a strike platform.

I am not certain that the Air Force should control all UAVs, but something needs to be done about standardizing UAV development to avoid duplication and wasted money. The Army took the Predator and made their own, called the Sky Warrior. In looking at the two programs along with the Reaper, I am uncertain why the Army felt the need to invest in an entirely new variant when the Reaper seems to be quite similar in design. Perhaps the Air Force didn't play nicely in developing Reaper, which is entirely possible. Acquisition and procurement is broken across ALL services, however.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: Grunt03
SecDef Gates is in a position that he must make very tough calls. I have served the past 24 years in the Marines, I have worked closely with all of the branches of service. I have operated with the Army Rangers and Delta, I have trained with the Seals and have been in Reconnaissance units. I am not the formost expert, but my interaction with the airforce has been disappointing.:frown:

I think the largest problem is that the airforce is a 9 to 5 job, it a shell game. Yes I know that they provide a specific as each service does. but they lack certain things that define a military service. I think for way to long they have had their way and have gotten very comfortable and know it. I think it is time to down size the Airforce, send the fighter assets to the Navy.

I for one am very glad to see them get the headline news coverage instaed of the insane coverage of Marine's passing out coins.

Lets forcast up coming events - he resigns, writes a book, becomes an anchor for a news channel then becomes a consultant for one of the major builders of aircraft supplying....

I take serious issue with your characterization of the entire Air Force from your interactions. From my experience, working in a flying wing and while deployed, Air Force personnel work to get the mission done and don't follow any 9-5 mentality. Are there exceptions? Sure, but those exist in every branch of service.

I have a friend (USAF) who spent three years embedded with III MEF and characterized enlisted Marines as much less intelligent than their Air Force equivalents and who required extension direction for taskings. Do I assume that all Marines are that way because of his experience over three years? Marines screw up constantly on Okinawa with the locals, but that does not color my opinion of the service in any way. I know there are plenty of responsible and respectful Marines as well, and the few bad apples are just that -- few.

I will admit that aircrew do insist on their crew rest BS too often (it's 12 hours flying and 16 hours total duty day), but I know that in crisis situations, the good ones will overlook or tweak their records to avoid problems with those restrictions (tsunami aid relief, for instance). Ask the maintenance guys about working 9-5, especially in contingencies.

I am not trying to turn this into an interservice slugfest; however, I find it irresponsible for anyone to accuse another service of ineptitude or lackadaisical performance when examples abound to prove the opposite. If you didn't see that over the course of your career, perhaps you weren't looking hard enough or in the right places. Walking on and off an aircraft does not give a good perspective about what the Air Force does on a daily basis, particularly if everything works as it should.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Sounds like the Air Force has some serious problems.

We have an Air Force?

It's been all ground forcs since "Shock & Awe".

Actually I think S&A was carried out by the Navy?

The Air Force provides a great deal of logitistical support, S&A was a joint operation involving Navy, Marine, and Air Force aircraft.
 

mundane

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2002
5,603
8
81
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
mundane

Each of the branches has their own UAV programs, and there is strong pressure (from both above and the AF) to consolidate into one branch.

Part of my point is that all of the services want the equipment and the AF does not want that.

I see no particular need or benefit in consolidating everything under the AF. Even training can be done at facilities shared by all of the services as has already been done successfully with other training programs.

Different services have different needs and requirements for their operations. Do you think that the AF takes into design considerations specifics for say, naval deployment, i.e. salt air/water exposure, storage, TO/L from rolling, pitching decks, adding ASW or sea rescue components, etc.?

I agree - the typical Marine use case is much different from that of AF. There is a lot of duplicity involved in the current approach, as AndrewR pointed out.

The Navy doesn't want armed UAVs/UCAVs/whatever today's acronym is. There was a Joint armed UAV program, called J-UCAS, that was cancelled because the Navy pulled out. Originally, I thought it was because of design creep making the program too heavy, but subsequently, the Navy has pursued a large UAV for future deployment that is solely unarmed, which seems oddly stupid to me. However, it appears that the Navy manned aircraft mentality is even more entrenched than in the Air Force which has now accepted and is using the Reaper as a strike platform.

I am not certain that the Air Force should control all UAVs, but something needs to be done about standardizing UAV development to avoid duplication and wasted money. The Army took the Predator and made their own, called the Sky Warrior. In looking at the two programs along with the Reaper, I am uncertain why the Army felt the need to invest in an entirely new variant when the Reaper seems to be quite similar in design. Perhaps the Air Force didn't play nicely in developing Reaper, which is entirely possible. Acquisition and procurement is broken across ALL services, however.

 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Sounds like the Air Force has some serious problems.
Yeah the Douchebag who is their Commander and Chief and his hatchet man Gates.

Absolutely wrong. As is often the case, when these types of problems become well-known (such as this situation with the Air Force), most people will ignorantly take the quick and easy route by blaming one or two people... usually the president and/or the Sec of Defense. Not to say they are completely blameless, but issues like this are normally entrenched, long term problems that fester.

Stay away from the political BS and I know Bush Bashing is the latest and greatest craze, but there's a lot of good, professional stuff to read out there if you're actually serious about learning and discussing the issue. Here's an example:

http://lexingtoninstitute.org/1274.shtml
HOW THE AIR FORCE FELL SO FAR
Loren B. Thompson, Ph.D.
Issue Brief
Jun 10, 2008

The forced resignation of the Air Force's top civilian and
uniform leaders last week is the latest chapter in a chronicle of
decline that has been unfolding for decades. The political influence of
U.S. air power has gradually ebbed away since the cold war ended, and
the resulting vacuum has been filled by representatives from other
services, most notably the Navy. Air Force officers today are largely
excluded from the uppermost tier of the joint command structure, and
have grown accustomed to being out of step with the priorities of senior
political appointees running the Pentagon. Some proponents of air power
offer conspiracy theories to explain why the Air Force has fallen to the
lowest point in its sixty-year history. But an honest appraisal of what
happened suggests that the service's wounds are mostly self-inflicted.

Perhaps the greatest defect of Air Force leaders in recent times
has been their failure to adapt to the changing demands of a transformed
global security environment. The Air Force won its independence from
the Army and became first among equals in joint military counsels by
offering a theory of strategic bombing that seemed uniquely responsive
to the geopolitical rivalries of the industrial age. The promise of air
power at its inception was that it could hit the "vital centers" of
enemy power, and thus bring speedy victory that avoided the static
trench warfare of World War One. A generation later, nuclear weapons
made air power even more potent -- not so much as an agent of victory,
but as a tool of deterrence. However, U.S. defeat in Vietnam signaled
that the source of danger was shifting to elusive, unconventional
aggressors, and the Air Force failed to change as fast as the threat
did.

Resistance to change is common in large, regimented
institutions, but in the Air Force it was made worse by cultural
insularity. Unlike the Army and Navy, who have located their service
academies and war colleges close to the nation's centers of economic and
political power, the Air Force chose to site its academic institutions
in remote locales such as Colorado Springs and Montgomery, Alabama. In
these isolated places there was little opportunity for cosmopolitan
cross-currents to influence the education of airmen. Air power doctrine
was passed down as dogma rather than as a living body of ideas, and that
produced senior officers who lacked the worldliness of their Navy
counterparts.

One symptom of this cultural insularity is a widespread
political obtuseness within the Air Force that leads it to misjudge what
power brokers outside the service want or will support. For example,
during the Bush years the service has expended considerable political
capital in resisting the efforts of civilian leaders to buy more B-2
bombers, increase spending on space systems, and accelerate the
development of unmanned surveillance aircraft. If it had simply said
"yes" in each case and conserved its capital for the really hard fights
like keeping the F-22 fighter in production, the Air Force today would
have a bigger budget, better capabilities, and more goodwill among
senior policymakers. By refusing to deal with the political system on
its own terms, the Air Force has handed other services with superior
political skills control of the entire joint command structure.

A final defect has been the Air Force's inability to communicate
with outsiders in a way that makes its capabilities and needs
compelling. This is a problem for all the services, but the Navy and
Marine Corps have worked much harder to improve their outreach
abilities. Because the Air Force has lost the capacity to speak
clearly, few Americans are aware of what it is doing in the global war
on terror; fewer still realize it may be more relevant to future
conflicts than the other services. It is sad that Secretary Wynne and
General Moseley are ending their service to the nation on such a
negative note, but it would be downright tragic if this moment did not
lead air power advocates to rethink the way they do their jobs.