NEWBIE wants your advice on building a computer.

[JackSpadesSI]

Hey, everyone! First-time poster here. I?ll open with the embarrassing part? my desktop is a little less than 7.5 years old. I got a Dell before college in 2001, and, at the time, it was screaming-fast! It is a 1.8 GHz P4 with a 64 MB GeForce 3.

That system cost just over $2k and for a good two+ years I didn?t even have to look at any games? system requirements because I knew I could blow them away. As my PC became obsolete I got more into console gaming than computer gaming because it was far more affordable as a college student.

Long story short, it is finally time for me to buy another computer. I knew I didn?t want to go back to Dell because of their HORRIBLE customer service, but I?m just now coming around to the idea of building my system from scratch.

1. What your PC will be used for: gaming mostly (hopefully at 1920x1200 with AA), minor video work, and general home computing.
2. What your budget is: $1,200-ish (unfortunately, the list below already adds up to $1,400? oops).
3. What country you will be buying you parts from: USA.
4. If you have a brand preference: Intel CPU.
5. If you intend on using any of your current parts, and if so, what those parts are: just the speakers.
6. If you have searched and/or read similar threads: I?ve read these forums for a few days only.
7. If you plan on overclocking or run the system at default speeds: I?d like to think I?ll overclock someday, but more than likely I know I won?t.
8. When do you plan to build it: as soon as my parts list falls to near $1,200 or before StarCraft II comes out (I do plan on playing more demanding games on this PC, but that?s the only game I couldn?t buy for my Xbox 360 if I really had to).

Here?s my build-list so far just from my own thoughts:
Processor = Intel E8500 3.16GHz
MOBO = Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P
Graphics = PowerColor Radeon HD 4870 1GB
Memory = Corsair Dominator 4GB (2x2) DDR2 1066
HDD = WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB
Optical 1&2 = two of: LG Black GH22LS30
Case = CoolerMaster RC-534-KKN2-GP
Power = PC Power & Cooling S75CF
Display = Acer P243WAid 24? Widescreen 1920x1200
Keyboard = Microsoft J93-00001
Mouse = Microsoft ?Habu? 9VV-00001
OS = Microsoft Vista Home Premium 64-bit

Things I want to know from you guys:
Your general thoughts and advice.
Did I forget any component (I don?t think I need a CPU cooler since I won?t be overclocking)?
Will this setup allow me to play today?s (and tomorrow?s? at least for a little while) games in 1920x1200 with AA?
Have any advice on how to shave $200 off that system (I?d rather wait for prices to drop than lose any really significant performance)?
Where would I be performance-limited (bottlenecked) in the build above?
Should I use DDR3 memory, instead (in which case, please recommend a new MOBO)?
For $30 more, would I be better off CrossFire-ing two PowerColor Radeon HD 4850 512MB cards vs. the one 1GB card above (keep in mind that the second PCIe 2.0 x16 slot on my chosen MOBO only runs at 8x)?
The reverse of being bottlenecked, did I choose anything far and away ?too good? for all the other surrounding parts (e.g. I?m not sure if I really need the 1GB graphics card and just using one 512MB HD 4850 would save me $100)?
Can anyone recommend a better monitor? I don?t like the fact that this one can?t tilt to adjust viewing angle (my dream monitor is the Dell Ultrasharp 2408WFP, but I can?t justify the price)?

Thanks, everyone, in advance!!!

EDITED: Please look at my post on 2/20/2009 for my newly-updated build list.

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: JackSpadesSI
Hey, everyone! First-time poster here. I?ll open with the embarrassing part? my desktop is a little less than 7.5 years old. I got a Dell before college in 2001, and, at the time, it was screaming-fast! It is a 1.8 GHz P4 with a 64 MB GeForce 3.

That's a screamer, alright!

Oh yeah, welcome to the forums!! Hope you enjoy your stay here.

Looks like a pretty good build overall, needs a few modifications and a little more info.

For starters, you should link to the parts you're getting & specify the price for each so we know where your overall cost comes from (and whether there are any better deals available).

Second, look around the Hot Deals forum, you may find some much better prices if you dig a little.

Next, specifics.
e8500 + UD3P + 1GB 4870 + Caviar Black + Vista64 = excellent choices
Case + keyboard + mouse + display = too personal for us to comment on
Memory = No need for DDR2-1066 unless into extreme overclocking. Instead pick up this G.Skill PI Black (2x2GB DDR2-800 CAS4 @ 1.8V) kit for $50.
Optical: why two drives? Get this LG Blu-ray/HD DVD/DVDRW for $120 and you can watch BR/HD DVD & burn DVDs. Trust me, BR/HD on 24" is pretty.
PSU: Grab this Corsair 650TX for $80AR, it's more than enough power even if you decide to CF a second 4870 later.

Questions.
-You covered everything, no need for fancy cooling if you're not overclocking.
-Can drop some cost by maybe selecting a cheaper case (there's an Antec 300 for about $50 shipped if you look around), dropping down to an e8400 (or even e5200 and upgrade to a quad late this year/early next year) and switching to the UD3R if you don't plan to CF in the future.
-You will be able to play 99% of today's titles at 19x12 smoothly. Keep in mind that most games, especially at high resolution, rely more on GPU than CPU, although quads are starting to be useful in a few games (SupCom, GTA4). So if the system starts to feel sluggish later you can drop in a second 4870 (if you use the UD3P board) or sell that card and upgrade to a faster/next gen card when you need it.
-DDR3: just say no (expensive & no benefit)
-CF: definitely an option, but understand what you're doing. CF doesn't always scale well (in some games - at all - two cards no better than one) and in the future your only upgrade option will be to sell those two cards & buy something new. There are some great deals, though, I've seen 4850s selling for $115-125 after rebate (see Hot Deals forum).
-Reverse bottlenecked - nope, you want more GPU than anything else for gaming.
-Monitor - read the LCD thread in the Video & Graphics forum. Lots of suggestions there.

 

[DSF]

For a monitor that size I'd keep the 1GB 4870. The extra memory has been shown to be important in recent games, especially since you want to be able to run with AA.

However, you can pitch the DDR2-1066 and go with DDR2-800 instead since you're not seriously considering overclocking. Even if you do overclock DDR2-800 will let you go up to 3.8GHz if your cooler allows. Incidentally, you could shave some money off by going with an E8400 which isn't noticably slower than the E8500. If you want, bumping an E8400 up to 3.16 GHz is a trivial overclock anyway, even on the stock cooler.

Any special reason for two optical drives? I have two in my computer also, but that was actually an ordering mistake. I didn't notice until the parts arrived that I'd accidentally ordered two, and I figured I may as well keep one as a spare anyway. If you're looking to cut costs that's an easy to

Do you know what features are on the UD3P that aren't on the UD3R? If the answer is no then you can step down to the UD3R without losing any performance, especially since you're not planning on multiple graphics cards anyway. (And I wouldn't bother with the double 4850 idea.)

There's no harm in using a 750W PSU, but your computer would run just fine on a quality 650W unit, or even 550W. If you want to save some money in that area, look at a Corsair 550VX or 650TX, or a PC Power & Cooling 610W.

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Processor = Intel E8500 3.16GHz = $188.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819115036
MOBO = Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P = $116.99 w/ rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128358
Graphics = PowerColor Radeon HD 4870 1GB = $224.99 w/ rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814131120
Memory = Corsair Dominator 4GB (2x2) DDR2 1066 = $44.00 w/ rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820145214
HDD = WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB = $119.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16822136284
Optical 1&2 = two of: LG Black GH22LS30 = $25.99 * 2 = $51.98
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16827136153
Case = CoolerMaster RC-534-KKN2-GP = $49.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16811119106
Power = PC Power & Cooling S75CF = $79.99 w/ rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817341011
Display = Acer P243WAid 24? Widescreen 1920x1200 = $339.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824009125
Keyboard = Microsoft J93-00001
From Amazon.com for $25.96
Mouse = Microsoft ?Habu? 9VV-00001
From Amazon.com for $56.23
OS = Microsoft Vista Home Premium 64-bit = $99.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16832116488

Total build price (before any shipping) = $1,399.09

I like having two optical drives so that I can be burning a CD/DVD while playing a game. Especially with dual cores to handle the load for whatever few minutes the burn takes I?d like to have that functionality for the extra $26. As for the Blu-ray/HD-DVD drive, I?ve already got a Blu-ray drive (standalone) and a HD-DVD drive (Xbox 360 peripheral) connected to my 52? Samsung 1080p HDTV. Because of that, I?ll never watch a movie on this computer? ever.

If you?re recommending the G.Skill RAM on cost alone because DDR2 1066 is excessive, then I think I?ll keep my RAM since it is only $44.00 and actually cheaper than the G.Skill RAM. I see that the G.Skill has a lower CAS latency and lower voltage, although at a slower speed of PC2 6400. What?s the trade-off? If there was another reason for the recommendation, please let me know!

Is there any disadvantage (besides energy bill) to having the 750W PSU for the same cost (e.g. better brand/build quality)? Since I MAY consider CrossFire GPUs down the road I wanted to have the PSU to handle it right away.

I chose the UD3P over the UD3R so that I could eventually use DDR2 1333 memory (although it sounds like my choice of DDR2 1066 is already very sufficient) and because of the second PCIe 2.0 x16 slot. I must ask? is it even truly CrossFire if the second slot is limited to x8 instead of having two truly x16 slots??? If my chosen GPU is awesome and DDR2 1333 is a waste I may use the UD3R, especially since I?d gain one standard PCI slot instead of potentially wasting a PCIe 2.0 x16 (x8). Anyone else want to comment on the UD3P vs. UD3R topic???

Is there a BETTER GPU I should consider (for a similar budget) if it is that vital to high resolution gaming? Ideally, I would like having an HDMI-out on the card, too, but I can live with DVI-to-HDMI conversion.

Keep the comments coming! Thanks!!!

 

[zerocool84]

I wouldn't go Xfire. Have you read up about it and read the advantages and disadvantages??? I would hope so. Also since you're not overclocking, just get DDR2 800 RAM. No need to spend more money on better RAM. Also since you're not overclocking you don't even need the UD3R. The PSU is fine but you can get cheaper if you want. You could go for something less expensive but it won't hurt anything.

E8400 $164.99
Save yourself $24 and get this. You won't notice the difference between the two.

GIGABYTE GA-EP45-DS3L $84.99AR
You're not overclocking so you don't even need to spend the extra $$$ on the UD3R.

Corsair 2 x 2GB DDR2 800 $24.99AR
Cheap/great ram

PC Power & Cooling 610W $69.99AR
This is rock solid and slightly less expensive. You can go with which ever you want.

 

[DSF]

A lot of good questions. A lot more thought than most people put into their builds.

DDR2-1066 is not only "very sufficient" it's "meaninglessly high" for someone who's not overclocking.

First of all, quality DDR2-800 will generally overclock to DDR2-900 or even higher if you're lucky. The same chips that are in good DDR2-800 are in DDR2-1066. The DDR2-1066 modules are just fed more voltage by default, and are guaranteed to reach that higher speed.

Secondly, I'm not saying that DDR2-800 is good enough but DDR2-1066 will be slightly faster. I'm saying that the difference is not going to be noticeable outside of synthetic benchmarks, especially when you take into account the lower latency of the DDR2-800. If there's a difference in gaming it will be on the order of 1 frame per second.

As a result, the DDR2-1333 support isn't an issue because you're never going to be taking advantage of that extra speed. A Core2 based system just isn't limited by memory bandwidth. As a matter of fact, I run my RAM at DDR2-533 because I can't tell a difference when I turn my memory up to DDR2-800.

As far as the PCI-e slots, here's the gist of it: The standard up until about a year and a half ago was PCI-e 1.0 x16. About eighteen months ago the first cards based on the PCI-e 2.0 standard were released, like the 8800GT. PCI-e 1.0 x16 is equivalent to PCI-e 2.0 8x.

On all P45 chipset motherboards, and this goes for the UD3P as well as ASUS' P5Q Pro etc., the PCI-e lanes run at PCI-e 2.0 x8 when run in Crossfire mode. Keep in mind that's equivalent to running at PCI-e 1.0 x16. Current cards don't even fully utilize all the available PCI-e 1.0 bandwidth, so in most cases the difference between PCI-e 2.0 x8 and PCI-e 2.0 x16 is meaningless.

It won't stay that way forever, but that's the way it currently works. Eventually PCI-e 2.0 x8 will become a bottleneck as cards get faster and faster and require more and more bandwidth.

Another note on Crossfire: Adding a second card a year or two down the road is rarely as effective as buying a single new card. If you're planning on adding a second 4870 later on to boost performance that's a poor use of Crossfire.

If you consider it worth your $26 to have the second optical drive, that's fine and dandy. Like I said, I've got two and it does come in very handy sometimes, even if it's only so that I have to switch CDs out less often. You asked for places to save money though, and I pointed out several places you could do so without sacrificing performance.

Incidentally, you could also save a good chunk of money by getting a 640GB drive instead of the 1TB, but if you need the extra space there's not much you can do about that.

 

[Denithor]

Corsair 650TX has a 120mm fan instead of the 80mm fan used in the PCP&P PSU you picked out. Larger fan = slower rotation = less noise

Memory primer.
-CPU runs at 333 fsb (e8400: 9x333=3GHz, e8500: 9.5x333=3.16GHz)
-DDR2 at 1:1 runs at twice fsb (DDR2-800 = 400fsb, DDR2-1066 = 533fsb)
-Unless you're a major overclocker you won't need more than DDR2-800 rated memory (this will allow e8400 @ 3.6GHz or e8500 @ 3.8GHz without overclocking the memory).
-Regarding memory, just look for good quality, ie low cas at low voltage (anyone can raise the volts & push down the timings or up the speed, good quality does it at lower voltage; high voltage = high temps = premature death). Look for DDR2-800 @ CAS 4 or 5 @ 1.8-1.9V and you're good to go.
-As a final note, memory timings & speed have almost no impact on system performance. Today's processors either have a large L2 cache (C2D & C2Q) or use an Integrated Memory Controller (Athlon X2/X3/X4 & Intel i7) to optimize the flow of data through the cache so that bottlenecks don't occur. In older architectures (Pentium 4, Athlon XP) the core could actually bottleneck waiting for data to transfer from the much slower system memory but that just doesn't happen anymore. If you look at any benchmarks from the last two years there's minimal difference from either increased speed or timings.

zerocool's picks are good but I would stick with the 650TX I suggested for a quieter build.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: Denithor
Corsair 650TX has a 120mm fan instead of the 80mm fan used in the PCP&P PSU you picked out. Larger fan = slower rotation = less noise

zerocool's picks are good but I would stick with the 650TX I suggested for a quieter build.

I can attest to the greatness which is the 650TX. It's extremely quiet. I have never heard it even while gaming. Hell it even comes with a complimentary velvet bag.

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: zerocool84
I can attest to the greatness which is the 650TX. It's extremely quiet. I have never heard it even while gaming. Hell it even comes with a complimentary velvet bag.

Just what everyone needs. :laugh:

But yeah, great PSU. That one is made by Seasonic, I should have gotten that model instead of their 750TX (made by one of the other OEM PSU makers, slightly lower quality).

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Ok, after a month of deliberation I've updated my build list. Please critique!

Processor = Intel E8500 3.16GHz = $187.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819115036
MOBO = Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P = $114.99 w/ rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813128358
Graphics = Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 "Toxic" 1GB = $224.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814102815
Memory = Corsair Dominator 4GB (2x2) DDR2 1066 = $59.00 w/ rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820145214
HDD = WD Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB = already bought
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16822136284
Optical 1&2 = two of: Samsung SH-S223Q = $26.99 * 2 = $53.98
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16827151173
Case = CoolerMaster RC-534-KKN2-GP = $54.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16811119106
Power = Corsair CMPSU-750TX = $99.99 w/ rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817139006
OS = Microsoft Vista Ultimate 64-bit = $179.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16832116493

I've since bought the display (Samsung 2433BW) which has a resolution of 1920x1200 - that's the resolution I plan to play games at. It connects via DVI, if that matters.

I also already bought that HDD as Best Buy had the retail version for the same cost as Newegg's OEM version (and a gift card I had made it an easy choice). Therefore, the HDD can't be changed from the list. I've also already found a new keyboard and mouse.

That makes a total *remaining* build price (before any shipping) of $975.92.

For reference of the performance requirements I'll need: I plan to play Neverwinter Nights 2, The Witcher, Crysis, Crysis Warhead. Also, when they come out, I'll play StarCraft II and Diablo III on this computer.

Please let me know what you think as I'd like to buy this soon. All suggestions and comments are welcome (including any way you know of to save some $ from the prices I listed above without sacrificing any performance).

Finally, please let me now of any predicted incompatibilities: anything from driver issues on Vista 64-bit, to bottlenecking performance, to physical ones if the graphics card couldn?t fit in the case.

 

[betasub]

Originally posted by: JackSpadesSI
Finally, please let me now of any predicted incompatibilities: anything from driver issues on Vista 64-bit, to bottlenecking performance, to physical ones if the graphics card couldn?t fit in the case.

Driver issues on Vista64 are pretty much limited to legacy hardware (where the maker no longer provides support). Shouldn't be an issue with a new build unless you are bringing old gear along to the party.

Bottlenecking performance: there's too much worry about this one. It only becomes relevant when there is an app that slows your system to a crawl - so it's very much app-specific.

Physical issues: well, the 4870 is gonna be a tight fit. I hope that hard drive cage is removable. And then you may find some SATA ports are blocked by the 4870 depending on the motherboard layout.

 

[imported_wired247]

good point about the space for the video card beta.

here's a lian li case with tons and tons of space for any of the biggest video cards... great quality, just doesn't have bling
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16811112154

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Is the case I listed supposedly a small one? I thought it was full-sized.

Is there anywhere I can find dimensions like the length of the video card or the size of the interior of the case?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Everything in your build looks solid, I would pull the trigger.

I do personally prefer the Antec 300 as a case, it's roomy and has great cooling. Because of that, some people might think that they are loud, but I haven't noticed that with any of my builds.

I also might consider running the beta of Windows 7 (and then later the RC), rather than splashing out the money for Vista at this point in time, because it is soon to be replaced by Windows 7. Then when Windows 7 is finally released, you can buy it then.

I might also consider getting an E8400 rather than an E8500, just to save some small money. As long as you get an E0, it should overclock well (4Ghz).

Edit: There will be another test version of Windows 7 available (RC) before the beta expires. MS claims (so I've heard) that you can "upgrade" to the RC, and then upgrade to the final version.

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Aren't they pulling the Windows 7 beta in July? Not that I'm super up-to-date on Windows 7 info, but if they pull the beta in July and then don't release the full retail copy until January 2010, then I'd still have to buy Vista soon anyway. Vista Ultimate 64-bit is rather pricey, but if I'd just have to buy it anyway in 5 months I may as well get it now.

I'll check out the Antec 300 case.

Also, how can I ensure I'm getting an E0 while shopping on Newegg?

Any other suggestions, anyone??

 

[Denithor]

Unless you need the specific goodies in Ultimate (can you even name the differences?) just grab Home Premium and save yourself $80. Or just use Win7 beta until the retail copy is released and upgrade then (postpone the OS cost for a while - better to have the money in your pocket than Microsoft's).

G.Skill 2x2GB DDR2-1066 $48 shipped (unless you just like wasting cash)
Corsair 650TX $100 - $20MIR

I'll ask again - why two DVDRW drives?

 

[JackSpadesSI]

I am looking at Vista Ultimate because of the automatic PC backup feature and the video desktops.

As for the two DVD drives, I'll copy and paste from above:
I like having two optical drives so that I can be burning a CD/DVD while playing a game. Especially with dual cores to handle the load for whatever few minutes the burn takes I?d like to have that functionality for the extra $26.

 

[boggsie]

Originally posted by: JackSpadesSI
I am looking at Vista Ultimate because of the automatic PC backup feature and the video desktops.

As for the two DVD drives, I'll copy and paste from above:
I like having two optical drives so that I can be burning a CD/DVD while playing a game. Especially with dual cores to handle the load for whatever few minutes the burn takes I?d like to have that functionality for the extra $26.

You need one DVDRW to satisfy the requirements that you've responded with. Going with a DVD drive (read-only) allows you to play games off of that drive, while you copy/write to the second optical, a DVDRW. You can probably save $11 by having drive D: a DVD and drive E: a DVDRW.

Best regards,
-boggsie

 

[JackSpadesSI]

Ok, I bought my system as most recently listed a few posts up (I'm excited!). It should all be here by the end of the week and I'll be putting it together this weekend.

Where can I find a guide on "how to assemble your computer"? I know really basic stuff, but I could use help on attaching the processor and OEM heatsink to the motherboard.

Thanks!

 

[imported_wired247]

for guides on installing LGA775 cpu check youtube.


if you're using the stock intel heatsink (which is perfectly fine if you're not overclocking) then you don't need to worry about thermal paste. there is already thermal material installed on the heatsink.

don't worry... LGA775 is hard to foul up

 

[JackSpadesSI]

So I've built my whole computer. However, I've got a few concerns. When I run CPU-Z it says I'm only running at 1.998 GHz with a multiplier of 6.0. I Googled that issue and found an article saying that the C2D chips have some kind of power saving feature that drops their speed when at idle. Fine, I can live with that feature. Then I ran Crysis (v1.2.1) in windowed mode at VERY HIGH settings at 1920x1200. I used windowed mode so I could have CPU-Z running alongside it. I hoped it would display 3.164 GHz with a multiplier of 9.5 like an E8500 should, but it only said 2.831 with a multiplier of 8.5. If that doesn't max out my processor, I don't know what could!

So, I know that the sticky on AnandTech forums says that this question shouldn't be posted a million times but I've done my homework and I still can't it to verify that I bought the right processor. I just want some kind of acknowledgment that I own a perfectly optimal E8500.

Secondly, CPU-Z says my Stepping is A but my Revision is E0. Is that the same thing as having a Stepping of E0? I'm not sure since it didn't spell it out point-blank and I'm new at this.

Finally, is there anything to be concerned about if, while helping me assemble the computer, someone left an oily fingerprint on top of the processor where the thermally-conductive patch on heatsink makes contact with the processor?

 

[imported_wired247]

check bios, set multiplier to 9.5 manually, in case it's set to auto or something. sometimes there are 2 different bios screens where multiplier can be modified. intel speedstep (C1E) lets your CPU relax to a state of x6 multiplier, and when more power is needed it should kick up to the maximum set in the bios. there shouldn't be any in between.

yes you have an E0 CPU.

It's best to avoid oil since it's not as thermally conductive as the thermal paste. However you should be fine with stock settings. One fingerprint shouldn't really make a noticeable difference, but in the future just clean it with some high purity rubbing alcohol and if you leave any dust or fibers behind, just use compressed air to clean it off before applying heatsink.