Newbie (Idiot actually) Q: What's up with AMD? Intel CPU's are cheaper, wtf?

[DOOManiac]

Someone please, correct me in what I'm missing from this picture. I only start to keep up with hardware when its time to upgrade again, so thus I'm kinda out of the loop as far as the current things that are going on. So I'm going to sharkyextreme and here to anandtech to check out prices, and what do I see, AMD 2.0ghz cpus MORE EXPENSIVE than Pentium 4 2.0 CPUs. It gets even worse as AMD's speed increases get littler and littler, and P4 gets to be cheaper (than AMD) yet lots faster...

that's just... insane... I cannot even comprehend how AMD would let this happen. I mean that seems to contradict everything they have their processors for (cheap alternatives to expensive pentiums)...

And I'm also quite worried that P4 has a 3ghz cpu's yet AMD doesn't even have 2.3ghz yet... (And no, I'm no fan of AMD's phoney baloney xp rating method either. Apples to apples I say, not Apples to Scrabble...)

So I'm kinda dumbfounded about what to do about upgrading... I mean sure P4's are higher quality, faster, and cheaper... but I also have this PC2100 DDR Ram that, last time i checked, wouldn't work on intel mobo's, not to mention the new power supply thing...


Someone please shed some light onto this situation, as there must be SOMETHING in this equation that I'm flat out missing...

 

[bgeh]

AMD has begun to lose money in the past few months
so i think that they increased their price at the high-end level to recoup their losses
but the low-end processors(XP2200+ and below) are still cheaper than intel's

 

[Tab]

I dare you to put a 2.0Ghz Intel vs. a 2.0Ghz AMD and I bet the AMD will win in the benchmarks.

 

[gaidin123]

You are missing the fact that AMD CPUs have a higher IPC than P4s. P4s are optimized for very high Mhz while accomplishing relatively little per clock cycle. Current AMD CPUs are "slower" in Mhz but complete more instructions per clock than the P4s. That is partly why AMD went with the PR rating (Athlon 1800+=1.53Ghz~Athlon Thunderbird 1800Mhz).

The price/performance ratio of AMDs is still better than Intels but personally I think that is somewhat debatable at the moment with the 1.8s and 2.26s being such good overclockers on the Intel side.

The "power supply thing" for P4s is the requirement of a 12v connector on the motherboard. Almost all new PSUs have this 4 pin connector, but some motherboard manufacturers added a standard 4 pin molex (hard drive) power connector so even if your PSU wasn't "P4 ready", it would still be able to function.

You apple to apples comparison doesn't hold water since there are very different design philosophies that went into the P4 and Athlon chips. 1Mhz AMD != 1Mhz Intel. Mhz is only part of the performance equation and unfortunately no one company or consortium has come up with an acceptable standard of rating the overall performance of a CPU.

Gaidin

 

[DOOManiac]

hmm.. Thanks guys...

I'm not really interested in overclocking. I just don't care, its not worth the risk for me, plus I don't wanna deal w/ cooling issues. I like a quiet case w/ 27 fans. 😛

So now I just don't know what I should do... I'm kinda on a budget, but this 1.4ghz is finally showing its age w/ newer games heh.

:/

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: DOOManiac
I mean sure P4's are higher quality, faster, and cheaper... but I also have this PC2100 DDR Ram that, last time i checked, wouldn't work on intel mobo's, not to mention the new power supply thing......

The vast majority of P4 motherboards use DDR RAM, so I'm not sure why you think your PC2100 will not work.

Most of the P4 boards use a 4x4 12v connector. But there are boards that don't use it. Asus boards can use a regular Molex connector, and EPoX has some that don't have any extra connectors at all. And even if you do select a board that has the 12v connector, it's easy to find a very inexpensive adapter.

 

[BigJ]

The phoney balogna rating that AMD uses is the best way to get an accurate comparison of P4 vs. AMD. Go apples for apples? Test the 2400+ (2.0ghz) to Intels 2.0ghz as stated.

I guess you've been out of the loop for awhile, considering when the XP rating system came out, this was explained (AMD denies its in comparison, but we know the truth 😉).

Worried that AMD doesnt have a 3ghz CPU yet? They don't need it. It'd be a hell of a thing to see a 3ghz Barton or Tbred.

I guess that a P4 Celeron 2.2ghz is a better buy then an XP 2100+ because the Athlon XP is only 1.73ghz? That'sone of the big problems with AMD's rating system, is because common people have misconceptions, which is what they're aiming at. Don't worry about it though, at least we can educate you 🙂

 

[Lonyo]

I'm not sure what AMD are trying to do with the Batron (2500+ at least) and the PR stuff, maybe they've gone to comparing with Celery speeds?

 

[Aiden]

the amd value has all but disappeared for the most part. amd generally has a value on there low end cpu's still,but once you hit the mid range,there is minimal price difference between an amd system,and an intel system all other things being equal.

Since your on a budget, i would say you should spend more money on other parts then you would on a cpu. thus an amd cpu would be a logical choice. the one advantage you have with AMD is that they keep there slower speed cpu's on the market longer,and they are sold at very attractive prices.

It doesnt do alot,if you buy a 400$ cpu,if you dont spend the money getting the rest of the parts that will make it useful. would rather have a 50$cpu and a motherboard/memory that can handle the xp2800 or barton3000 when the price drops on those chips make them feaseable to buy.

 

[DOOManiac]

Yes, I am out of the loop BigJ2078.

So, in regards to actual performance, am I better off w/ a AMD 2400 XP (for $177) or p4 2.4ghz (for $194), as I can get a mobo for p4 that works w/ my pc2100 ddr ram?

Also, what's the differences between the p4 2.4 and 2.4B (besides $10)? Just revision?

Also, is it even worth going to 2.4ghz from my existing 1.4? I mean I usually wait till speeds double before I upgrade, as I don't wanna not notice the speed difference. 😛

Thanks again for putting up with me and trying to sort me out guys, I appreciate help. 🙂

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: DOOManiac
Yes, I am out of the loop BigJ2078.

So, in regards to actual performance, am I better off w/ a AMD 2400 XP (for $177) or p4 2.4ghz (for $194), as I can get a mobo for p4 that works w/ my pc2100 ddr ram?

Also, what's the differences between the p4 2.4 and 2.4B (besides $10)? Just revision?

Also, is it even worth going to 2.4ghz from my existing 1.4? I mean I usually wait till speeds double before I upgrade, as I don't wanna not notice the speed difference. 😛

Thanks again for putting up with me and trying to sort me out guys, I appreciate help. 🙂

The difference between the 2.4 and the 2.4B is that the FSB on the 2.4B is 133mhz, compared to 100mhz on the 2.4 standard chip. The FSB is quad-pumped on P4s, giving you the 533mhz FSB they so often talk about on the 2.4B and 400mhz on the 2.4 (2.4A is which they sometimes call it, denoting an older revision with the 100mhz FSB).
90% of the mobos out there being made for XP or P4 chips are DDR compatible, with the rare exception being Rambus boards and the old KT133A boards. As far as performance goes, you cannot go wrong with either the 2400+ or the 2.4ghz. It's purely just personal preference. Both chips are great performers.

From 1.4 to 2.4ghz (or theoretically with the 2400+)? Seems like a noticable speed jump, you should be able to see a difference. I saw one between my 1600+ @ 1.8ghz and my 2400+ @ 2.34ghz, and thats a 600mhz difference for already fast performance. You should notice a pretty nice improvement.

 

[blcjr]

From 1.4 to 2.4ghz (or theoretically with the 2400+)? Seems like a noticable speed jump, you should be able to see a difference. I saw one between my 1600+ @ 1.8ghz and my 2400+ @ 2.34ghz, and thats a 600mhz difference for already fast performance. You should notice a pretty nice improvement.

I can vouch for that personally. This past week, I upgraded from a T-bird 1.4 o'clocked to 1.53 (hence ~1800+) to a T-bred 2100+ o'clocked to 2600+. 3Dmark2001se scores went from 8900 to 16000. I'd say the difference was noticeable.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: BigJ2078
The phoney balogna rating that AMD uses is the best way to get an accurate comparison of P4 vs. AMD. Go apples for apples? Test the 2400+ (2.0ghz) to Intels 2.0ghz as stated.

I guess you've been out of the loop for awhile, considering when the XP rating system came out, this was explained (AMD denies its in comparison, but we know the truth 😉).

Worried that AMD doesnt have a 3ghz CPU yet? They don't need it. It'd be a hell of a thing to see a 3ghz Barton or Tbred.

I guess that a P4 Celeron 2.2ghz is a better buy then an XP 2100+ because the Athlon XP is only 1.73ghz? That'sone of the big problems with AMD's rating system, is because common people have misconceptions, which is what they're aiming at. Don't worry about it though, at least we can educate you 🙂

There are guys that have been able to push the Tbred B up to 3GHz, I believe the 3rd place 3D Mark score is an AMD Tbred B @ 2874 MHz, and its beat only by P4s at 4151 and 4232 MHz... a 3GHz Athlon would definately be a killer CPU... especially if it had a 200MHz + fsb 😉

 

[DOOManiac]

thanks guys. I guess I'll just start saving my $$ and then pick one when I get the money.

Oh crap, now to find out what motherboard to get. Any recommendations? To me, stability & reliability is equally as important as speed too heh. And for p4 its gotta support PC2100...

*edit*
A friend from IRC has sold me on the P4 2.4B. Right now he's trying to sell me on this mobo.
ASUS P4B533-E w/Raid Motherboard for Intel P4 478 RETAIL

My only thoughts so far are that 1) I don't need a raid 2) i don't want onboard sound, will immediately disable 3) my nic is better than their onboard, will disable. heh. in all honesty i'd rather see one w/o that crap, but oh well...
*edit*

*edit2*
He is now also sellling me on the Intel Board D845PEBT2 .

And I just noticed that neither of these boards have AGP 8x... I want to use my gf4 ti4400 to its full potential 😛

again i remind you that i'm a moron, be gentle.
*edit2*

*edit3*
and now the bastard has wetted my tounge with the most temping one yet, the ASUS P4G8X Deluxe, which apparently has 8X agp and this thing he tells me about dual ram somethings that make my two idential sticks of ram go uber fast. I can feel my checkbook crying for mercy already... heh
*edit3*

A jillion thanks again guys. You all rock! 🙂

 

[Wingznut]

I prefer the i845PE chipset (which is what is on that Intel board you have linked)... But the Asus P4B533 is an awesome board. If you do go with the P4B533, you may as well get the one without the "-E" and save about $40.

Consider the Asus P4PE also.

As for the onboard stuff, don't let it sway your decision any. Just simply disable it, if you don't plan on using it. (Btw, I said the same thing about onboard LAN. But now I use the onboard LAN, as I cannot tell the difference... I doubt anyone can.)

AGP8x is a non-issue. Again, there's realistically no measurable difference between 4x and 8x AGP.

The P4G8X... AWESOME board! It's a little pricey, but if you can afford it, then go with that one.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: DOOManiac
thanks guys. I guess I'll just start saving my $$ and then pick one when I get the money.

Oh crap, now to find out what motherboard to get. Any recommendations? To me, stability & reliability is equally as important as speed too heh. And for p4 its gotta support PC2100...

if you go AMD, nforce 2 mobos are the only way to go. They also have dual channel DDR. The Epox 8rda+ is a pretty good board and it's just a bit over 100 dollars.

Also, do you have to have a high clocked cpu? You can just sink $60 on a 1700+/1800+ and just get by. The big dick feeling is nice and all but after a month you probably won't care anymore.

Between those two parts, it'll be about 160-170 and you won't sacrifice a thing in stability.