New York Cop Who Pepper Sprayed Driver For Giving Him the Middle Finger Getting Fired

[Atomic Playboy]

Freedom fighters are the assholes?

Sometimes, yes. The Westboro Baptist Church is a good example. They have every right to do what they do, and I don't think we should take those rights away. But just because it's legal doesn't make it "good." I find protesting funerals morally reprehensible, and I think someone has to be an asshole to do it. I think that people who go out and do things that are legal but of questionable morality solely to provoke an angry reaction out of people are being dicks. I put flipping off cops in that category. I can't think of a single valid reason to film yourself running around flipping police officers off. I'm not saying I think it should be illegal, it just would never occur to me to do that because I find that behavior to be awful.

There's a quote from xkcd about free speech rights which sums up my feelings:

I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.

 

[shortylickens]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeGlj6q7o_E

 

[BoberFett]

There's no inconsistency. I think that everyone who goes out and intentionally attempts to provoke a violent reaction is acting like an asshole. A woman who dresses provocatively is not attempting to get raped. A man who films himself flipping off cops is absolutely attempting to provoke a violent response. That doesn't justify the cop's behavior, but it's not even remotely the same as a woman who is sexually assaulted simply for wearing a particular outfit. It's all about the intentions behind the actions.

She's not out to get raped, she's out to provoke a certain emotion. This guy who flipped off wasn't out to get pepper sprayed, he was out to provoke a certain emotion. Same thing. They both got the results they didn't want.

 

[BoberFett]

Grow up and stop intentionally trolling. You're acting no different than the guy giving the cops the bird. You're being an asshole.

What are you gonna do tough guy? Pepper spray me?

 

[BoberFett]

LOL, exactly, thank you.

No, she's not trying to exude sexuality and provoke a response. Not at all.

 

[DrDoug]

At my wife's retail job the company has what they call "Secret Shoppers" who come in like regular customers and evaluate the employee performance without them knowing that they are being evaluated. The employee later receives the evaluation and a rating on it. Poor performance is enough of a reason for you to lose your job. The idea is that the employees will strive to treat every customer like a secret shopper, thus customers will get better service.

If it's good enough for my wife's employer then it's good enough to use on the cops...lol!

 

[mikeymikec]

I'm wondering whether the guy who flipped the bird is somewhat braver than people here are making him out to be. Like it or not, the US has a rep of police officers who abuse their power and some people are ending up dead because of it. The whole point of an exercise like this is to expose those who abuse their power, and the guy who swore at the officer doesn't know what the reaction is likely to be before doing it.

Even if the guy in question gets his kicks by doing things like this, he may well be an arsehole, but unless he's completely stupid (and I doubt that an organisation would pick someone without being sure that they're fully aware of the potential consequences), he must know that he's taking a significant risk.

 

[purbeast0]

LOL, exactly, thank you.

No, she's not trying to exude sexuality and provoke a response. Not at all.

yeah, because staring at a chicks tits in a low cut shirt is the same thing as raping a girl.

:thumbsup:

this thread has really brought out the dumbfuck in ATOT

 

[jlee]

Maybe not excusing, but definitely victim blaming. Shall I continue?

Please do. Show me where I'm "defending the blue wall" here.

 

[tcsenter]

Let's change your wife beating husband example to something less gender charged. Let's say there is a guy A walking around in the park flipping people off and getting into their faces.

Bad analogy. Getting into someone's personal space aggressively has a reasonable and instinctive tendency to make people feel as though a sucker punch might be coming at any time. Proximity and range is definitely a factor in perception and reality. So your analogy should be more like "Let's say a guy is walking around the park telling people off from 30 feet away and never approaches anyone....." and then have your vigilante approaching and closing distance on him to deliver violence.

 

[Nashemon]

Bad analogy. Getting into someone's personal space aggressively has a reasonable and instinctive tendency to make people feel as though a sucker punch might be coming at any time. Proximity and range is definitely a factor in perception and reality. So your analogy should be more like "Let's say a guy is walking around the park telling people off from 30 feet away and never approaches anyone....." and then have your vigilante approaching and closing distance on him to deliver violence.

I understand your point.

The cop was wrong. <- Period
He 100% should not have reacted the way he did.

There are two views in my mind.

The first is that flipping the bird is protected under the 1st Amendment. It's your right to flip off those you have ill contempt for, just as it's your right to speak in front of a crowd about your ill contempt for those same people. It's as simple as that. You cannot be prosecuted for it according to the Constitution.

The other view is at what point does an obscene gesture become assault? Perhaps never, but at what point do you not tolerate it anymore. How many people (yes, cops are people) did this guy go around flipping off until he found one who reacted this way? If someone goes around town (specifically not a private event, as they can be removed from the premises, after of course first being asked to leave in our beta society), flipping people off, cursing them, farting on their children, etc, at what point does it become appropriate for someone to intervene? Many of us would say that until he crosses the line into the realm of physical assault, no one should interfere with their antics. We should simply turn our backs and ignore it. Tolerate the unruly; Tolerate gross indecency; Tolerate the assault on our children's innocence.

I'm not aware of the court cases defining the laws around flipping the bird that someone else mentioned in the thread, but in my mind, it's borderline verbal assault. Can a mute person not verbally assault someone in sign language? Perhaps visual assault? It's obscene, perverse, socially unaccepted. But it's your right to do it, and should be without consequence. But perhaps there is some other law that should apply when it's used in a manner consistant with assault.

 

[jlee]

I understand your point.

The cop was wrong. <- Period
He 100% should not have reacted the way he did.

There are two views in my mind.

The first is that flipping the bird is protected under the 1st Amendment. It's your right to flip off those you have ill contempt for, just as it's your right to speak in front of a crowd about your ill contempt for those same people. It's as simple as that. You cannot be prosecuted for it according to the Constitution.

The other view is at what point does an obscene gesture become assault? Perhaps never, but at what point do you not tolerate it anymore. How many people (yes, cops are people) did this guy go around flipping off until he found one who reacted this way? If someone goes around town (specifically not a private event, as they can be removed from the premises, after of course first being asked to leave in our beta society), flipping people off, cursing them, farting on their children, etc, at what point does it become appropriate for someone to intervene? Many of us would say that until he crosses the line into the realm of physical assault, no one should interfere with their antics. We should simply turn our backs and ignore it. Tolerate the unruly; Tolerate gross indecency; Tolerate the assault on our children's innocence.

I'm not aware of the court cases defining the laws around flipping the bird that someone else mentioned in the thread, but in my mind, it's borderline verbal assault. Can a mute person not verbally assault someone in sign language? Perhaps visual assault? It's obscene, perverse, socially unaccepted. But it's your right to do it, and should be without consequence. But perhaps there is some other law that should apply when it's used in a manner consistant with assault.

Disorderly conduct would apply in the State of NH-

644:2 Disorderly Conduct. – A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:

(b) Directs at another person in a public place obscene, derisive, or offensive words which are likely to provoke a violent reaction on the part of an ordinary person;

As I recall, police cannot be the 'victim' for disorderly conduct per this statute (i.e. obscene, derisive, or offensive words towards a police officer do not constitute a valid charge of disorderly conduct). It has been a few years now so I may be a bit rusty.

 

[waggy]

I understand your point.

The cop was wrong. <- Period
He 100% should not have reacted the way he did.

There are two views in my mind.

The first is that flipping the bird is protected under the 1st Amendment. It's your right to flip off those you have ill contempt for, just as it's your right to speak in front of a crowd about your ill contempt for those same people. It's as simple as that. You cannot be prosecuted for it according to the Constitution.

The other view is at what point does an obscene gesture become assault? Perhaps never, but at what point do you not tolerate it anymore. How many people (yes, cops are people) did this guy go around flipping off until he found one who reacted this way? If someone goes around town (specifically not a private event, as they can be removed from the premises, after of course first being asked to leave in our beta society), flipping people off, cursing them, farting on their children, etc, at what point does it become appropriate for someone to intervene? Many of us would say that until he crosses the line into the realm of physical assault, no one should interfere with their antics. We should simply turn our backs and ignore it. Tolerate the unruly; Tolerate gross indecency; Tolerate the assault on our children's innocence.

I'm not aware of the court cases defining the laws around flipping the bird that someone else mentioned in the thread, but in my mind, it's borderline verbal assault. Can a mute person not verbally assault someone in sign language? Perhaps visual assault? It's obscene, perverse, socially unaccepted. But it's your right to do it, and should be without consequence. But perhaps there is some other law that should apply when it's used in a manner consistant with assault.

flipping someone off should never ever be considered assault. to try to classify such would open a can of worms ti would be very bad.

 

[Humpy]

This thread reminded me of when I flipped off GW Bush as I passed his motorcade on the interstate. It felt good, but holy crap, for the next ten minutes I thought for sure I was going to get pulled over and beat on for a while.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

flipping someone off should never ever be considered assault. to try to classify such would open a can of worms ti would be very bad.

This. Flipping someone off is bad manners, but assault? That's absurd. Now if someone just follows you around constantly flipping you off, I would say that crosses the line into harassment. But still not assault, and never an excuse for physical retaliation.

 

[Nashemon]

This. Flipping someone off is bad manners, but assault? That's absurd. Now if someone just follows you around constantly flipping you off, I would say that crosses the line into harassment. But still not assault, and never an excuse for physical retaliation.

Yeah, that'll do it. I knew it had to be a lesser form of assault, but for some reason could not think of the word harassment.

I guess I'm thinking of the extreme situation where there is a "mad man" running around a public place, flipping off kids or dogs, or something. Not physically harming anyone, just being an annoyance making kids cry or dogs give them the sideways glance. Of course when it's your kid he's flipping off, you take it more personally than someone else's kid. Perhaps he does this for a few hours, relentlessly. No kid deserving it more or less than any other. You could tell him to knock it off. But he just gives you the finger, and continues flipping off your kids. You can let him win by leaving, removing yourself from the situation, tail between your legs, of course. But he's just going to continue, not quite assaulting other children.

Bringing up harassment charges in that case makes sense. One can be charged for that.

 

[TwiceOver]

"I'm going to sue THE SHIT out of you guys".

Classic funny.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

"I'm going to sue THE SHIT out of you guys".

Classic funny.

And 100% true. He owns their ass, the only thing left to decide is how big the check is going to be.

 

[waggy]

This thread reminded me of when I flipped off GW Bush as I passed his motorcade on the interstate. It felt good, but holy crap, for the next ten minutes I thought for sure I was going to get pulled over and beat on for a while.

and they should have you fucking terrorist!

 

[Pulsar]

flipping someone off should never ever be considered assault. to try to classify such would open a can of worms ti would be very bad.

Agreed on that point. Flipping the bird at someone IS free speech. It may not be a good idea - but it's free speech.

 

[Pulsar]

And 100% true. He owns their ass, the only thing left to decide is how big the check is going to be.

Actually... he may not. There are cases where things like this get thrown out because it's obvious the instigator was trolling. Yeah, the police officer gets a charge of assault and suspended for a few days and a mark goes on his record. But sometimes the judge acknowledges that the punishment is already appropriate, and it's clear that the instigator was fishing (trolling) for a response.

 

[TwiceOver]

Actually... he may not. There are cases where things like this get thrown out because it's obvious the instigator was trolling. Yeah, the police officer gets a charge of assault and suspended for a few days and a mark goes on his record. But sometimes the judge acknowledges that the punishment is already appropriate, and it's clear that the instigator was fishing (trolling) for a response.

Yup. Same as the people strolling down the road with as big of a gun as they can find on their back and video cameras on all sides.

Guns are fine. Protecting your rights is fine. Displaying your rights is also fine. Being a douche about it is not cool.