New Title: Staunch liberal admits to being lifelong Conservative Republican

[PeshakJang]

See end of thread for stunning revelations!

http://www.businessinsider.com/sorr...ion-does-nothing-to-lower-unemployment-2010-1

Ten months into President Barack Obama's first economic stimulus plan, a surge in spending on roads and bridges has had no effect on local unemployment and only barely helped the beleaguered construction industry, an Associated Press analysis has found.


Spend a lot or spend nothing at all, it didn't matter, the AP analysis showed: Local unemployment rates rose and fell regardless of how much stimulus money Washington poured out for transportation, raising questions about Obama's argument that more road money would address an "urgent need to accelerate job growth."


Obama wants a second stimulus bill from Congress that relies in part on more road and bridge spending, projects the president said are "at the heart of our effort to accelerate job growth."


Construction spending would be a key part of the Jobs for Main Street Act, a $75 billion second stimulus to revive the nation's lethargic unemployment rate and improve the dismal job market for construction workers. The House approved the bill 217-212 last month after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., worked the floor for an hour; the Senate is expected to consider it later in January.


AP's analysis, which was reviewed by independent economists at five universities, showed that strategy hasn't affected unemployment rates so far. And there's concern it won't work the second time. For its analysis, the AP examined the effects of road and bridge spending in communities on local unemployment; it did not try to measure results of the broader aid that also was in the first stimulus like tax cuts, unemployment benefits or money for states.


"My bottom line is, I'd be skeptical about putting too much more money into a second stimulus until we've seen broader effects from the first stimulus," said Aaron Jackson, a Bentley University economist who reviewed AP's analysis.


Even within the construction industry, which stood to benefit most from transportation money, the AP's analysis found there was nearly no connection between stimulus money and the number of construction workers hired or fired since Congress passed the recovery program. The effect was so small, one economist compared it to trying to move the Empire State Building by pushing against it.

​

So what many opponents have been saying all along looks to be right. Road construction spending has been a *massive* waste of money, and has done very, very little other than enriching a few construction companies with political prowess.

Of course, now the argument will change from, "It will kick start the economy with millions of jobs!", to, "It's a long-term investment in our infrastructure to fuel our economy in the future!", as it has with every other failure of a project.

Once something is deemed a failure, either blame not enough money, or re-brand it as an investment. Doing a heck of a job, Barry!

 

[Medellon]

Yup, liberals just change the names of things when they fail. Spending has now become investment.

 

[Sinsear]

Shovel ready.

 

[K1052]

A lot of the spending went to resurfacing projects since they have the least amount of lead time. These are of limited utility since the broken road beds are left in place.

The real infrastructure backlog in the US totals something like $3+ trillion. Bridges, tunnels, drinking water systems, locks, dams, interstates, railways, transit systems, sanitation systems, ports, electrical supplies, etc. A lot of these things are on borrowed time and we just get upset when something falls down/blows up and kills a bunch of people only to be forgotten shortly afterward.

This country needs a permanent means to support the replacement and upgrading of vital infrastructure. The infrastructure bank (which has been proposed at various times over the years) would provide the best way of making the most of limited federal dollars and leverage the vast sea of cash sitting on the sidelines. Now is also a better time than ever to start doing this since construction costs are WAY down and we can get the most for our dollars.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Pulls the work forward only; it is not new work needing to people.

Only a long term project (2-3 years) will have the potential to create jobs

 

[drebo]

A lot of the spending went to resurfacing projects since they have the least amount of lead time. These are of limited utility since the broken road beds are left in place.

The real infrastructure backlog in the US totals something like $3+ trillion. Bridges, tunnels, drinking water systems, locks, dams, interstates, railways, transit systems, sanitation systems, ports, electrical supplies, etc. A lot of these things are on borrowed time and we just get upset when something falls down/blows up and kills a bunch of people only to be forgotten shortly afterward.

This country needs a permanent means to support the replacement and upgrading of vital infrastructure. The infrastructure bank (which has been proposed at various times over the years) would provide the best way of making the most of limited federal dollars and leverage the vast sea of cash sitting on the sidelines. Now is also a better time than ever to start doing this since construction costs are WAY down and we can get the most for our dollars.

The gas and road taxes, as well as tolls, should be more than enough to pay for that. If only it didn't go into the general fund to be misspent.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Few major road and construction projects have local companies perform the work. The local companies don't have the necessary equipment or the capitol to invest in it. The materials (cement, asphalt, steel, etc.) and equipment (including lots of maintenance parts) are not produced locally either.

True impact of the projects would require a really broad analysis. Somebody, somewhere is making the materials and equipment and transporting them. And neither the construction companies nor the suppliers keep people on the payroll just in case they get a big job or order. And the decades long drive for efficiency by virtually all companies has left little room to produce more with a fixed staff. More orders/contracts; more staff. Some portion of billions of dollars in contracts will go to company profits, but the majority of it will go into paychecks someplace. Paychecks that wouldn't exist if there was nothing for the people to do.

 

[K1052]

The gas and road taxes, as well as tolls, should be more than enough to pay for that. If only it didn't go into the general fund to be misspent.

Fuel taxes have been falling short for years now. The Feds have had to dump about $10B a year into the Highway Trust Fund since 2008 because of gas tax shortfalls. Most state funds are in similar condition. Because of that interest in mileage taxes to replace the fuel tax has been gaining ground because the gap is only projected to widen.

That also doesn't account for all the huge projects done by capital spending programs outside the established funds over the past 40 years. This is more infrastructure that has to be taken care of with an ever dwindling supply of funds.

 

[PeshakJang]

Few major road and construction projects have local companies perform the work. The local companies don't have the necessary equipment or the capitol to invest in it. The materials (cement, asphalt, steel, etc.) and equipment (including lots of maintenance parts) are not produced locally either.

True impact of the projects would require a really broad analysis. Somebody, somewhere is making the materials and equipment and transporting them. And neither the construction companies nor the suppliers keep people on the payroll just in case they get a big job or order. And the decades long drive for efficiency by virtually all companies has left little room to produce more with a fixed staff. More orders/contracts; more staff. Some portion of billions of dollars in contracts will go to company profits, but the majority of it will go into paychecks someplace. Paychecks that wouldn't exist if there was nothing for the people to do.

Oh, I almost forgot. Third thing to do when a project fails to create jobs is to claim that it "saved" jobs.

Obama's stimulus is paying the salaries of dozens of workers, but local officials said the unemployment rate continues to rise and is expected to top 20 percent soon. The new money for road projects isn't enough to offset the thousands of local jobs lost from the closing of manufacturing plants and automotive parts suppliers.

...
The Obama administration has argued that it's unfair to count construction jobs in any one county because workers travel between counties for jobs. So, the AP looked at a much larger universe: The more than 700 counties that got the most stimulus money per capita for road construction, and the more than 700 counties that received no money at all.

For its analysis, the AP reviewed Transportation Department data on more than $21 billion in stimulus projects in every state and Washington, D.C., and the Labor Department's monthly unemployment data. Working with economists and statisticians, the AP performed statistical tests to gauge the effect of transportation spending on employment activity.

There was no difference in unemployment trends between the group of counties that received the most stimulus money and the group that received none, the analysis found.

​

The study was pretty broad.
​

 

[Moonbeam]

As I suspected, it's corrupt private construction firms, the kind owned by Republicans who lobby and win this money by deceiving the government. Government waste and abuse can always be tracked back to Republicans who milk the country for all it's worth, the filthy assholes.

 

[ShawnD1]

Yup, liberals just change the names of things when they fail. Spending has now become investment.

It is a good investment. My city finally converted a road/train crossing to a road that goes under the train. Huge traffic improvement. Money well spent.


But roads don't help with your trade deficit so I guess you're kinda screwed eh?

 

[PeshakJang]

It is a good investment. My city finally converted a road/train crossing to a road that goes under the train. Huge traffic improvement. Money well spent.


But roads don't help with your trade deficit so I guess you're kinda screwed eh?

How much did the project cost? What is the ROI over the next 10 years? 20 years?

If something is going to be labeled as an investment, you need to show that it is generating a return in excess of the total cost of implementing it plus the costs associated with not implementing it. Problem is, nobody funding these projects does that. They just look for something to throw money at, list a couple benefits, and label it an 'investment'... even if an analysis would show that it is a tremendous cost with little return.

Invading Iraq was an investment, because in 25-50 years, if a stable pro-west government is in place, we will probably get some favorable trade agreements, and overall stability in the region will benefit our economy. See how easy that was?

 

[CycloWizard]

As I suspected, it's corrupt private construction firms, the kind owned by Republicans who lobby and win this money by deceiving the government. Government waste and abuse can always be tracked back to Republicans who milk the country for all it's worth, the filthy assholes.

Or you could put the blame where it belongs: on the corrupt idiots who knowingly keep throwing money at these assholes. The job of a company is to provide a good/service in exchange for money. These companies are doing that very well, apparently.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

1) Can you link an article that is less than a year old?

2) I went into the article thinking, how did they go about comparing unemployment levels with help from public projects against having no help from public projects. And the answer is, they didn't!

The bottom line
When Action X results in Result Y, there is no way to state how Action Z would have resulted. What people are not seeing is what could have happened.

I'll go further. There are many people (including Warren Buffett) that think that people that are complaining about unemployment levels do so without comprehending how bad things could be with help via government spending. You will all learn this the hard way if a republican takes the presidency in 2012. Because the economy is not going to get better. We were spending borrowed money like drunken whores for 5+ years. Stop pretending that this can all be fixed in 1 or 2 years. Before people can use leverage again, people have to deleverage (personal debt to per capita GDP levels need to drop). Not till this happens will things truly get better.

You should all be happy that the government has been backstopping the economy as best it can. Want to know what caused the great depression, just stop gov't spending. Those that ignore the past are doomed to repeat it. Stop listening to what the media says and actually study the great depression. (1)It's causes. (2)The failed attempts to fix things. (3)And what finally fixed things. By doing so, you can all learn that we by and large skipped step 2 this time.

 

[ShawnD1]

How much did the project cost? What is the ROI over the next 10 years? 20 years?

If I had to guess, I'd say maybe 1-2 million dollars for that underpass? Roads are insanely expensive.

The ROI is that it saves fuel for everyone going that way. I remember one job I had involved driving across an intersection where two major roads met, and just crossing that one road took about 30 minutes of stop and go plus engine idling. Fuel saved for my small car would be about $1 per day. Now multiply that by how many people are on this road... so maybe 1000. So $1000 per day (mon to fri) for 10 years = 1000 * 365 * 5 / 7 * 10 = $26,071,428,571

I probably did that calculation wrong. A single overpass for a major intersection could save 26 billion dollars!! It's more realistic if that's rounded down a little. Maybe it will save only 1 billion dollars in fuel 😉


Then republican economics kicks in. We have more money in our pockets so we buy goods from China and this helps the domestic economy (somehow) 😀

 

[glenn1]

This country needs a permanent means to support the replacement and upgrading of vital infrastructure. The infrastructure bank (which has been proposed at various times over the years) would provide the best way of making the most of limited federal dollars and leverage the vast sea of cash sitting on the sidelines. Now is also a better time than ever to start doing this since construction costs are WAY down and we can get the most for our dollars.

There is, it's called your state government. Fvck bailing out the spendthrift state legislatures and let them spend their own money fixing their infrastructure.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I've found it amazing just how danged expensive it is to build a road today. I look at the price tags for road construction projects sometimes and wondered how the hell we ended up with all the roads we have today.

 

[theeedude]

Idiotic analysis. There are people employed due to stimulus money right down the street from me. With the state broke and city slashing budget, they would not be employed without it.

 

[Patranus]

The gas and road taxes, as well as tolls, should be more than enough to pay for that. If only it didn't go into the general fund to be misspent.

Exactly.

They now use infrastructure to generate revenue for liberal pet projects.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Then republican economics kicks in. We have more money in our pockets so we buy goods from China and this helps the domestic economy (somehow) 😀

Republican economics? That's odd...I thought it was the Dems who pushed for GATT and signed it into law. Silly me.

 

[PeshakJang]

Idiotic analysis. There are people employed due to stimulus money right down the street from me. With the state broke and city slashing budget, they would not be employed without it.

So you are basically cementing the argument that it didn't create jobs, but saved jobs.

You're also broadening it "stimulus" from "road construction spending".

Also going from a quantified, broad study to a single anecdote.

Looks like the idiotic analysis = you.

 

[umbrella39]

Threads like this prove one thing... some people are never happy and find fault in all everything.

 

[ShawnD1]

I've found it amazing just how danged expensive it is to build a road today. I look at the price tags for road construction projects sometimes and wondered how the hell we ended up with all the roads we have today.

I'm guessing they used taxes.

Old TV shows are weird. People always claim to be good citizens because "I pay my taxes" as well as a few other things. I haven't seen that on any newer TV shows. Maybe Americans had a sense of pride in those days that doesn't exist today. Back then it seems like people were expected to trust the government to a certain extent and help the government when asked to do so. Right now both parties on this forum have an equal distrust of the government.

The public perception of which government projects should exist seems to have changed a lot. fitty years ago you had no healthcare but you had a massive interstate road construction project. Now it's the complete opposite. Dems are pushing for some kind of health care to cover everyone, old people are all on the dole, poor people are on the dole as well, and infrastructure is left to rot. Instead of everyone contributing to build something great like a highway or SR-71 blackbird, it's a game to see who can contribute the least while getting the most personal benefits.

 

[K1052]

There is, it's called your state government. Fvck bailing out the spendthrift state legislatures and let them spend their own money fixing their infrastructure.

No, an infrastructure bank would look objectively at projects based on cost vs need and benefit. Essentially the polar opposite of state legislatures.

Also if left to fend for themselves pretty much all states would be forced to abandon major pieces of infrastructure.

 

[ShawnD1]

Republican economics? That's odd...I thought it was the Dems who pushed for GATT and signed it into law. Silly me.

Republicans: lower taxes so we have more money to spend on chinese products!
Democrats: ima take yo money to build some stupid bullshit shelter for butterflies with upside down wings