New system has a few bugs.. help please!

[fsumarc]

Hi all,
I'm hoping someone here can help me with the system I just finished building...
this will probably end up a very long post but I am going to try to give as much detail as
possible to help.

Let me preface this project:
My previous system was a P3 866 on an Asus CUSL2-C
512M of Crucial 150 cl2 sdram
GF2 Ultra, SB Audigy, 80G Maxtor 2M cache fluid bearing 7200rpm
Plextor 24x cdrw, el cheapo 48x cd, etc...

Anyway, this system was fairly stable in the beginning of it's life but
over the last year it has become a slow, buggy system.. time for a replacement.

Did my research and saving up and put the new system together. I was going for
performance as well as stability.

The problems I am having is when playing games (Splinter Cell, Unreal 2) the system
will just randomly lockup. black screen, and sound looping. I can do nothing to get it to
recover or reboot except hit the reset button. after I hit the reset button it will not
post until 2 - 4 reset presses. The other problem I see is it will never reboot itself.
Whether I am in windows and choose restart, or in dos and 3 finger salute it, or even
in bios and choose save and exit, it will just go to black screen and at that exact moment when
it SHOULD beep the post beep and begin cmos screen it just sits there eternally. until I hit
the reset button. Then it will post and boot fine.

I have a couple of concerns but dont know if they are a result, a cause, or just nothing to worry
about.

1: the voltages (especially 12v) seem a little low to me.
2: the temps seem a little high to me.

These issues bug me because at the same time I built this system, I also helped
a friend build almost the exact system for himself. The only differences between the 2
is he has an Antec Smartpower 450 and only 512M of the ram (2 256M sticks) but besides
that they are identical. His voltages are very close to exact. (12 is 11.9, 5 is 4.98, etc) and
his temps run, on average, 10 degrees C cooler then mine doing the exact same thing..
His system seems very stable and solid. not a single crash/lockup/reboot issue.
and he is even running his memory much faster. (2/6/2/2)

Here is my system's details:

Hardware:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P4 2.53 533fsb on a Gigabyte SINXP-1394 (Sis 655)
ANtec TrueBlue 480 psu in a SkyHawk Usa aluminum mid tower. (modded to flip psu upright..)
1 Gig Corsair XMS pc3500 (2 512 sticks in DCDDR)
Ati Radeon 9700 Pro
Samsung 955df 19" crt monitor
SB Audigy 2
Maxtor 80G 8M cache 7200 rpm fluid bearing
Maxtor 80G 2M cache 7200 rpm fluid bearing (from old system)
Opticals: Liteon 16dvd and Liteon 52x cdrw
HP PSC950xi multifunction printer
Logitech Elite wired keyboard/ wired Trackman Marble fx
Monsoon MH-505 5.1 speakers. (these are awesome!)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cooling:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPU: Thermaltake Spark 7 HSF using AS3 for compound (wired to temp sense)
HDD: Both mounted in Thermaltake Hardcano 5s
VGA: Ati Stock cooler
NB: stock gigabyte hsf
CASE: 1x 80mm bb coolermaster front fan blowing in
1x 80mm bb coolermaster side window fan (blue led) blowing out
1x 60mm bb cant remember rear fan blowing in
PSU: 2x stock internal fans
DPS: 1x stock blue light fan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Voltages: (using bios and easytune4)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vcore: 1.57-1.58
3.3v: 3.21
5v: 4.91
12v: 11.77 - 11.71
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Voltages: (using Sandra)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPU1 Core Voltage : 1.54V
+3.3V Voltage : 3.22V
+5V Voltage : 4.92V
+12V Voltage : 11.42V
-12V Voltage : -12.20V
-5V Voltage : -5.71V
Standby Voltage : 5.03V
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Memory Timings: 2.5/6/3/3

Temps: (using probes and easytune/bios)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPU Idle: 34c
CPU Normal: 38-41c
CPU 100%: Max of 51c steady (measured using burnin wizard in Sandra)
HDD: 31c idle 34c running solid
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not overclocking anything.
3D mark 2003 score: 4577

Drivers:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gigabyte AGP: 1.14
BIOS: F4 (non mod)
9700 Pro: Cat 3.1
Directx: 9
Audigy 2: 5.12.1.324
Onboard Lan: 6.2.21.0
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRQs:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
only sharing I see:
16 shared by 1394 controller/Radeon 9700 pro
19 shared by Audigy 2/ onboard lan controller
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please tell me what I can do to figure this out! I saved up for quite a while (got a wife and
2 kids to take care of first..) and dropped a serious (for a working stiff anyway) load of
bucks on this rig and did everything I could think of to build in stability and performance.
It drives me nuts when my system has mystery bugs like this....

Thanks for reading my long winded (typed) novel,
fsumarc

 

[microAmp]

Your voltages seem fine to me, you can have 5% to 10% variance on the +12 line or the +5 line.

Your full load temps are what I'm not sure about, since I haven't paid attention to P4 temps around here. Are you using thermal compound on the heatsink?

ATi released new drivers today, you can give that a try to fix the game problems. How to uninstall ATi drivers correctly.

Isn't DirectX 9 still in beta? I would revert back to DirectX 8.x, but you have to find a uninstaller for DX9 since it is a one way street with the installation.

Also, check for latest BIOS update on your motherboard. I would do that first before doing any of the above.

 

[Bacinator]

I had this problem a few years ago with my PIII. Don't know if it's the same, but it ended up behind a heat issue. Got it a Volcano 5, and it never happened again. But 51c doesn't sound all that hot to me, so I'm not sure. Your faulty indications sound exactly the same as mine... Always when gaming, and never consistent (sometimes after 5 minutes, sometimes after a few hours).

It may not be a heat issue, but I would recommend making the front and side fans blow in, and the rear fan blow out. The way it looks now, you have the front and year fighting each other, and the side fan blowing out. From a technical point of view, you are cancelling the effectiveness of your cooling by making a 60mm and 80mm fight each other, and a side 80mm to try and relieve the pressure. So the side 80mm is almost working by itself. After you turn your rear fan around to blow out, make sure there is plenty of space in front for intake, and behind for exhaust.

This should help your temps, and if it fixes your problem (probably won't) then enjoy!

Oh yeah, and the cat 3.2 drivers are out. I'm assuming you are using windows XP

And I wold also recommend a few more bux spent on quality case fans. I hear Panaflo's push alot of air, and are fairly quiet, and the Enermax Whisper is a dollar more, and pushes a bit more air. You got a very nice system, and keeping it solid as close to room temps as possible would increase the life and stability of all internal components, and protect your investment - IMHO.

 

[fsumarc]

Originally posted by: motoamd
Your voltages seem fine to me, you can have 5% to 10% variance on the +12 line or the +5 line.

Your full load temps are what I'm not sure about, since I haven't paid attention to P4 temps around here. Are you using thermal compound on the heatsink?

ATi released new drivers today, you can give that a try to fix the game problems. How to uninstall ATi drivers correctly.

Isn't DirectX 9 still in beta? I would revert back to DirectX 8.x, but you have to find a uninstaller for DX9 since it is a one way street with the installation.

Also, check for latest BIOS update on your motherboard. I would do that first before doing any of the above.

Hi Motoamd,
Thanks for the reply. I am using Arctic Silver 3 for the heatsink compound.
Directx 9 isn't beta anymore as far as I know.. it doesn't say anything about beta.
Motherboard bios is F4 which is the latest on Gigabytes website.

I will check out the new Catalyst 3.2 drivers. Though I'm not sure it is a driver issue because the buddy of mine that built
the same system as mine is using the same driver revisions and he doesn't have the problem.

Thanks,
fsumarc

 

[fsumarc]

Originally posted by: Bacinator
I had this problem a few years ago with my PIII. Don't know if it's the same, but it ended up behind a heat issue. Got it a Volcano 5, and it never happened again. But 51c doesn't sound all that hot to me, so I'm not sure. Your faulty indications sound exactly the same as mine... Always when gaming, and never consistent (sometimes after 5 minutes, sometimes after a few hours).

It may not be a heat issue, but I would recommend making the front and side fans blow in, and the rear fan blow out. The way it looks now, you have the front and year fighting each other, and the side fan blowing out. From a technical point of view, you are cancelling the effectiveness of your cooling by making a 60mm and 80mm fight each other, and a side 80mm to try and relieve the pressure. So the side 80mm is almost working by itself. After you turn your rear fan around to blow out, make sure there is plenty of space in front for intake, and behind for exhaust.

This should help your temps, and if it fixes your problem (probably won't) then enjoy!

Oh yeah, and the cat 3.2 drivers are out. I'm assuming you are using windows XP

And I wold also recommend a few more bux spent on quality case fans. I hear Panaflo's push alot of air, and are fairly quiet, and the Enermax Whisper is a dollar more, and pushes a bit more air. You got a very nice system, and keeping it solid as close to room temps as possible would increase the life and stability of all internal components, and protect your investment - IMHO.

Hi Bacinator!
I was concerned about the temps because I see posts from people who are overclocking saying their cpu runs in the mid to upper
20s C when idle and high 30sC when overclocked and loaded.. I cant even get that low when running stock.. mine is 10 degrees C
hotter then my friends identical system..

I will do some playing around with the fans and see what happens, and the Cat 3.2 drivers.
I thought the coolermaster and thermaltake fans were quality fans? they are all dual ball bearing, very quiet (compared to
my old cheapy sleeve no names anyway) and seem to move a lot of air.. guess I will look into some others.. I read the
panaflos were somewhat noisy?

Thanks for the great suggestions, I will test them out!

fsumarc

 

[Bacinator]

Not saying the coolermasters or thermaltake's are bad... Just offered some idea's to help maximze bang for the buck.

Also, I am 100% finished tinkering with the hardware in my new xp2100, and put it in it's cubby hole (built into desk). I forgot that closing the door would prevent intake ventellation... The computer quickly overheated and shut down... My asus a7n8x came with a temperature monitor, and it showed in the history that my CPU temp went from 40c to 52c in about 80 seconds, at which point it shut down. Outside of the cubby it never gets above 42c. So I'll probably be removing the cubby door for a comprimise. Thinking of ways to inject cool air into cubby also.

 

[fsumarc]

Wow! 52c is when it shuts down? I hit 50 - 51 pretty quickly if I run aggressive burn in cpu tests in Sandra..
Why is the default alarm setting in easytune 60c if 52c is a thermal shutoff point? I understand you have
an AMD but I would assume thermally they might be close?

Interesting about the cubby desk. the friend who I built this same pc for has one of those cubby desks where
the pc box sits inside a wooden door. it seemed to be ok for his P3 1G system. ( though I did have him take the
back off, and he usually left the door open when playing games...) but because the new system looks so cool he
decided to put it on top out in the open for a while.. I will suggest he leave it there and not put it inside.

well, off to play with fans and catalyst drivers. I ordered a Lian Li dual lcd display temperature probe for the
3.5 inch bay from newegg. when that comes in, I am going to unmount my cpu hsf (since I have to to attach
temp probe) and redo the AS3 and reseat it to see if that helps too.. I did mine first and it was the first time
I had done one that wasn't factory hsf with heatpad.. maybe didn't get the AS3 right..

Thanks again,
fsumarc

 

[Bacinator]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure my thermal cutoff is set around 55-60c, cuz I want to know when there's problems. My solution with the cubby will probably be to remove the cubby door. Heat isn't a problem when the door's open.

And my P4 socket 423 worked just fine with the door closed. AND it only had stock HSF, single PSU fan, and one 80mm rear exhaust. But then again, the P4 wasn't overclocked either. I wonder what my shutoff temp was set to? I don't think I ever checked... It may have been like 80c, which is why I never had heat problems with it. LOL! Pretty much same eq was in P4 except for my radeon 9500 pro... It had a GeForce2 MMX 440. And the new case is bigger, and puts out 120 more watts. WeeEEee... Good luck.

EDIT: And I'm assuming EZ tune is a BIOS feature? There are a couple places to set temperature alarms, and I'm fairly certain I have both my BIOS and Desktop monitoring set to about 55, but the monitor never technically reached that point... But maybe it's a safeguard. Either way, I'm happy with it shutting off a bit early.

 

[fsumarc]

Hi again Bacinator,
Just a follow up. Very busy weekend so no time to tinker anyway, I reversed the fans and so now here is what I have:
front 80mm blowing in
side 80mm blowing in
rear 60mm blowing out
dual fans in psu blowing out
and dont know if they count much but the fans in my 2 hardcano5s are blowing in as well.

Here is what I ahve observed so far:

CPU temps are down on average 2-3c
HDD temps are up 3c

so now under load my cpu runs around 47-48c
and hdds run around 35c

I do notice there is a LOT more air blowing out of my psu in the back now compared
to before and the air coming out is quite warm.. I need more cooling! I am going to
dismount the hsf unit from the cpu tommorrow as soon as the lcd temp monitor gets
here from fedex and reseat it again using AS3 again. is there any issues with removing
the hsf, cleaning the AS3 off and then redoing it? this would make the 3rd time doing this now.
The first time was when I switched the thermaltake spark from pot controlled to temp controlled,
had to put a sensor on bottom of the heatsink. (yes, I made sure it is nowhere near being between
the die and heatsink)

Thanks again,
fsumarc

ps. anybody else has any suggestions while I wait until tommorrow for my lcd temp probes?

 

[Bacinator]

There shouldn't be any problem cleaning off and reapplying the AS3. In fact, I believe this should be done every time you remove your HSF for any reason. Is it necessary, not really. Is it one of those things you do to ensure that everything is set optimally, definitley. Just like topping off your windshield wiper fluid, even though it's half full.

The lower temps are a good sign. You did not mention if that fixed any problems... Sometimes a few degees can make a big difference.

Don't forget to ensure plenty of cool intake air room (nothing obstucting intake, and no heat eminating sources near intake [sun on floor, heating vent, wall, another computer, etc...]), and plenty of room for exhaust. If you have a cramped exhaust space, it will make the entire area behind the computer heat up, increasing the case's ambient temperature, in addition to possibly warming intake air. And if you can find a way to cool the intake air more than normal, and a way to sweep away the hot exhaust, you can be sure your temps will drop more.

Of course I am talking "perfect" conditions, which we may not always be able to achieve at home.

I've subscribed to the thread, and am looking forward to positive reports.

 

[fsumarc]

Hi Again!
OK here is where I am at now. The temp probe came in today. It is a simple Lian Li lcd display unit.
I removed the hsf. clean off all the AS3. stuck the temp probe to the heat sink surface right next to
where the die contacts the heat sink. (but not between them) reapplied AS3 and reinstalled.

1 thing I did notice while working on the system, I thought I had the 60mm fan on the back blowing out
but I must have reinstalled it blowing in again by accident. So I turned it to blowing out (and made sure this time).

The temp display is a dual probe system so I stuck the other probe to the Radeon 9700 pro for kicks. stuck it to the under side
of the heatsink. There is a space where it can be tucked under the heat sink without removing the heatsink...

Anyway, after powering up and running some tests here is what I now observe:

Temps at idle:
CPU 93-97f (per easytune4)
CPU 93-94f (per temp probe)
HDD's both 92f (per temp probes)
9700 Pro 113-115f (per heat probe)

Running 3DMark2003:
CPU 103f (per probe)
cant observe easytune during 3DMark
HDD both 95f
9700 Pro 126f max (per probe) this is a steady climb to the max and then holds there...

Running cpu burn-in in Sandra (10 loops):
CPU 104f (per probe)
CPU 117f (per easytune4)
HDD 93f (per probe)
9700 Pro 116f (per probe)

All these temps look pretty good to me. My only concern is the vast difference in reading the cpu
in sandra between the probe and easytune4.. big variance... which would be more accurate?
I would be inclined to think that the difference might be caused because easytune is taking it's reading
via a sensor in the die and the probe is just that, a probe stuck to the heatsink... except, once again,
I have the fortune (misfortune) of having an almost identical reference system, my buddys, and his probe
and easytune are almost identical temps every time.. will have to get him to do some more tests when he
gets home from work.. to verify this again.

So far I have not been able to perform the BIG test.. play unreal 2 for a couple hours... maybe tonight
I can squeeze some in and report back.. but no lockups or crashes yet. (fingers crossed)

I will report back as soon as I can.
Thanks again for all the help!
fsumarc

 

[Bacinator]

Sounds good.
Two different temps with seperate monitors would be normal in my opinion. To get the exact same temps from 2 monitors, that would be ideal, and scary... Scary because everything is set so perfect, or appears to be. I would prefer a wee bit of difference in the two, if only for contrast. Plus it looks like your EZTune temps are reading a bit higher. Keep in mind the thermal diode, and your probe are in different spots. If you have a heater, 10ft away you cant feel it, 5 feet you may feel it, 2 feet your warm, 1 foot barely tolerable, and you wouldn't think of touching it intentionally. Lots of difference, especially when you're pushing a lot of air through a case.

Good luck.

 

[fsumarc]

True. I would expect some difference but this seems weird.. At idle to moderate temps they are only a few degrees different
but at 100% utilization they are up to 10-14f degrees apart. It's like they are on different scales. I would attribute it to good
cooling, (hot at the die but dissipating well before it gets to the probe) except on my buddies system with everything the same (location,
testing software, etc) his stay 3-4 different throughout the scale. strange... it's really weird when we are running the tests at
the same time. His probe, easytune, and my probe are almost exactly the same. the only odd one is my easytune reading..

speaking of which, the temp reading that is in bios and easytune, where is this temp derived? is it a diode on the mobo or
in the processor? If in the processor, is it on the actual die or is it seperate but within the packaging? just curious. maybe I
have a bad diode... if it is a function of the processor I am considering swapping chips with my buddy to see what happens..
If it's on the mobo I AM NOT going through that!

played about 30m last night, no problem so far. hopefully will be able to get in a bigger session soon.

Thanks for keeping me company through this!
fsumarc

ps. about the heater analogy, actually I am the type who DOES touch it to see just how hot it is! guess it is
from my engineering background.. that's why I cant leave this system alone until I know I have all the bugs and kinks worked
out.