New SLi AA coming soon for G80

[Gstanfor]

I believe (as I did @ G80's launch) that nvidia has always had a handle on G80 drivers. It's just pointless to reveal your full features/potential before its too late for the competition to adapt to them with their own part. Enthusiasts may be a little upset that the early drivers were not perfect, but from nvidia's (corporate) perspective things have gone brilliantly considering the damage G80 has inflicted upon ATi's image amongst general consumers and the damage to ATi/AMD's balance sheet.

Nitromullet, I'm not about to let Vista worry me too much for the next year or so. I am purchasing a copy with the new PC, true, but will be dualbooting it with XP. I'm really not too worried about having to use an "inferior" or "obsolete" OS to get the performance/IQ I want.

 

[josh6079]

I believe (as I did @ G80's launch) that nvidia has always had a handle on G80 drivers. It's just pointless to reveal your full features/potential before its too late for the competition to adapt to them with their own part.

Pointless if all you care about is the competition instead of the people you're selling to.

I don't think they've had a "handle" on their drivers from the start and were intentionally releasing beta drivers so they could "hide their brilliance". If that were the case they would have at least given users a WHQL driver when Vista "launched" (which they didn't) and just kept the xS modes out of it then. Not to mention they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of creating a web page for troubleshooting Vista drivers.

Enthusiasts may be a little upset that the early drivers were not perfect, but from nvidia's (corporate) perspective...

From the "corporate" perspective things were going well even before they gave us xS modes again.

Thinking that nVidia "had a handle" on their drivers all along either highlights your wishful thinking or shows nVidia's lack of respect for their consumers.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I believe (as I did @ G80's launch) that nvidia has always had a handle on G80 drivers. It's just pointless to reveal your full features/potential before its too late for the competition to adapt to them with their own part. Enthusiasts may be a little upset that the early drivers were not perfect, but from nvidia's (corporate) perspective things have gone brilliantly considering the damage G80 has inflicted upon ATi's image amongst general consumers and the damage to ATi/AMD's balance sheet.

Nitromullet, I'm not about to let Vista worry me too much for the next year or so. I am purchasing a copy with the new PC, true, but will be dualbooting it with XP. I'm really not too worried about having to use an "inferior" or "obsolete" OS to get the performance/IQ I want.

I hope you're wrong regarding your theory on withholding parts of the drivers. If that sort of thing came to light and it was true, I think I would have to take a long pause before I bought another NVIDIA card. Given the option of having features withheld or having to deal with 'unoffical' patches (like the Chuck patch), I'd take the Chuck patch way any day.

With regards to Vista and SLI 2.0... It's my guess that SLI 2.0 is Vista 8-series SLI... There is already 6,7, and 8-series SLI support for XP and 6 and 7-series SLI support for Vista... What do you really think "SLI 2.0" is?

My point was just in general that I wouldn't recommend swallowing SLI 2.0 hook, line, and sinker until it makes its debut and we can see how well it works.

 

[BFG10K]

BFG, how do the xS modes do with games like FEAR, CoD2, Q4, etc.?

Generally 8xS has a performance hit between 8xQ and 16xQ while 16xS is much more demanding than 16xQ.

My 8800 GTS can do 8xS in Fear at 1600x1200 if I reduce the shadow detail a bit (which I do anyway). I can't test 8xS in OpenGL yet but I suspect it would manage 1760x1320 in Quake 4 (again with reduced shadow detail) since I could already do 1600x1200 with 8xS on my 7900 GTX.

You can forget about using xS in Call of Duty 2 as the game is far too demanding. To get a decent framerate there I have to use 1760x1320 with 4xAA - anything higher is just far too slow.

I'm curious as to the performance increase with xS frames from the 79 series to 80 series with our normal benchmarking selection of games - not to mention just the frames in general.

In a few games I've tested the 8800 GTS is a lot faster when using 8xS than my 7900 GTX was.

 

[Cookie Monster]

nVIDIA's priority for releasing new AA modes isnt at the top of the list. That is why we havent seen the xS modes, and other AA modes from them for sometime. The most important priority for the forceware team is Vista and stability. SLI and other goodies will have to wait, but this is promising.

 

[jim1976]

Was about time..

*edit.. I agree with your last post Cookie Monster.. But it was something that was highly anticipated anyway..

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: jim1976
Was about time..

*edit.. I agree with your last post Cookie Monster.. But it was something that was highly anticipated anyway..

All we need is benchies

*waiting patiently for BFG's benchmarks using some of the new and old modes*

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
I believe (as I did @ G80's launch) that nvidia has always had a handle on G80 drivers. It's just pointless to reveal your full features/potential before its too late for the competition to adapt to them with their own part. Enthusiasts may be a little upset that the early drivers were not perfect, but from nvidia's (corporate) perspective things have gone brilliantly considering the damage G80 has inflicted upon ATi's image amongst general consumers and the damage to ATi/AMD's balance sheet.

Nitromullet, I'm not about to let Vista worry me too much for the next year or so. I am purchasing a copy with the new PC, true, but will be dualbooting it with XP. I'm really not too worried about having to use an "inferior" or "obsolete" OS to get the performance/IQ I want.

I hope you're wrong regarding your theory on withholding parts of the drivers. If that sort of thing came to light and it was true, I think I would have to take a long pause before I bought another NVIDIA card. Given the option of having features withheld or having to deal with 'unoffical' patches (like the Chuck patch), I'd take the Chuck patch way any day.

With regards to Vista and SLI 2.0... It's my guess that SLI 2.0 is Vista 8-series SLI... There is already 6,7, and 8-series SLI support for XP and 6 and 7-series SLI support for Vista... What do you really think "SLI 2.0" is?

My point was just in general that I wouldn't recommend swallowing SLI 2.0 hook, line, and sinker until it makes its debut and we can see how well it works.

Do you really think nvidia is troubled by your concerns over their competitive tactics? Most consumers are blissfully unaware of the politics knowing only that nvidia has new parts and ati doesn't.

As for SLI 2.0 no-one yet knows precisely what form it will take, but nvidia would be foolish to overlook XP users for no reason whatsoever (it may be that its only possible under Vista, but we don't know that yet). In any case if it offers me enough performance (read: ability to use high IQ modes at high res) I'll be there.

 

[SonicIce]

Man, BFG, you get so worked up over AA modes. As long as you're having fun

 

[josh6079]

Do you really think nvidia is troubled by your concerns over their competitive tactics?

One would hope. Afterall, isn't that what the following is for?

nVidia forums

nVidia's Vista Quality Assurance Page

You, being one with a business of your own, must know how to provide a level of customer care and a competitive edge. Sometimes having good customer care *gives* that edge. Are you implying nVidia can't do both? That nVidia must make a driver release as important as a hardware debut just to be competitive? That they forsake their consumers demands, place a deceptive "please-report-your-nVidia-vista-problems-here-so-we-can-fix-them" page, struggled to provide WHQL support at Vista's arrival, and are continuing to hold out on G80 Vista SLI just because of ATi - a company you feel inferior and gone?

You can't have ATi be important enough for nVidia to care about in one hand while being a push-over company in the other.

 

[Gstanfor]

nvidia's customers have had customer care and a competitive edge though Josh, thats the whole point.

You are trying to blow the vista problems up into something more than they really are. Nothing ever goes 100% to plan. nvidia is dealing with its vista problems well IMHO, Users have a chance to report problems thanks to the vista feedback page.

Strategically G80 has been very important to nvidia. ATi is no longer able to launch their hardware at the same time nvidia does (ATi fought hard to get their release schedules close to nvidia's), nvidia has better IQ, better performance, better everything - ***even with drivers that are holding back features***

 

[josh6079]

nvidia's customers have had customer care and a competitive edge though Josh, thats the whole point.

I'm not disagreeing that they've had an edge - more like a cliff lately - just that whatever features/potentials the G80 has wasn't viable to them from day one. I bet they've learned more about their own product since it's debut and have therefore been able to tweak it because of it.

That's what makes a driver support team great, being able to fix and evolve software as it needs it, not predetermine the highlights and pitfalls of a an architecture and intentionally release beta versions and buggy support so as to throw off the competition, which is what you're implying. Those previous bugs and crappy drivers weren't corporate strategies but the early stages of driver perfection and maturation, IMO.

You are trying to blow the vista problems up into something more than they really are.

Just as you're trying to brush them under the rug. I have only echoed what others have complained about.

Nothing ever goes 100% to plan.

Then how could they have "had a handle" on them from the get-go with a big scheme of crappy support to throw off the competition? If nothing ever goes 100% to plan, what do you think nVidia's initial drivers were? Trick attacks to throw off ATi or simply the first series of drivers that nVidia could come up with at the time?

nvidia is dealing with its vista problems well IMHO, Users have a chance to report problems thanks to the vista feedback page.

I wasn't arguing that. Notice how I even linked that page earlier...

You made the claim that nVidia doesn't care about what the enthusiasts want, then back-peddle and give them a pat on the back for making a page that relays just that: tells them what the enthusiasts' want. Make up your mind.

Strategically G80 has been very important to nvidia.

:Q

Hey now, that's some good observation there. Strategically Carbon has been very important to life...

ATi is no longer able to launch their hardware at the same time nvidia does (ATi fought hard to get their release schedules close to nvidia's), nvidia has better IQ, better performance, better everything - ***even with drivers that are holding back features***

So why (again) would nVidia be concerned with them? Why hold back good drivers to throw off the competition that already isn't competing?

 

[Gstanfor]

I pretty much ignore G80 Vista drivers at this point in time. Both they and Vista are way too immature to indicate anything and I don't see what is so different about the situation if you go back to when XP was still in its nappies. You need to look at the XP drivers to see nvidia's strategy. Of course focussing on Vista drivers suits the fanatics since they then have something they can whinge about...

nvidia are still concerned with ATI even now because its possible ATI could somehow produce another R300 chip which would help them to compete again. nvidia is raising the cost of such a reentry as high as they possibly can for obvious (if you aren't a fanatic) reasons. ATI I'm sure has had G80 under the microscope (literally) trying to uncover its secrets but that can only tell you so much. Full featured drivers would make ATI's life much easier - they would know exactly what they are up against and would be able to prepare counter-measures. Smart businesses don't give their competition such luxuries and nvidia is a very srmart business.

 

[josh6079]

I pretty much ignore G80 Vista drivers at this point in time. Both they and Vista are way too immature to indicate anything...

How does this support your original argument? How does having immature drivers and OS's indicate that nVidia "had a handle" on the quality of their software?

You need to look at the XP drivers to see nvidia's strategy.

It's not a strategy, it's what happens to all new video cards and drivers. It emerges and is improved upon. That improvement comes from the public detailing what's wrong with it and through extensive testing and troubleshooting, it's not a pre-planned "tactic" to initially release buggy drivers on purpose just so that a failing competitor won't know what's up - and if that is indeed true, nVidia's corrupt for caring more about a failing competitor than their consumers.

nvidia are still concerned with ATI even now because its possible ATI could somehow produce another R300 chip which would help them to compete again.

The chance of that happening is about as good as you buying an ATi card.

And I find it amusing how you use the excuse that ATi is dead, gone, and not a threat to nVidia and still try to paint them as the reason for delaying quality.

 

[Gstanfor]

Could you please point out to me where I have said ATi is dead or gone please Josh?

nvidia is a publically held company. They care about their shareholders more than anything else, just like any other publicly held company.

I've no patience for your iditioc rantings. Go vent your fanatic spleen elsewhere. I understand the fanatics @ rage3d have been purging "less desirable" members from their fourms -- you should fit in just fine over there and help pump the numbers back up.

 

[josh6079]

Could you please point out to me where I have said ATi is dead or gone please Josh?

No, because those you've chanted it all to often in threads long gone. We could take a poll if you'd like though and see how many other members recall you feeling that way.

In this very thread you've commented on how little ATi has going for them, hence how little of a concern they are: "ATi is no longer able to launch their hardware at the same time nvidia does (ATi fought hard to get their release schedules close to nvidia's), nvidia has better IQ, better performance, better everything - ***even with drivers that are holding back features***"

nvidia is a publically held company. They care about their shareholders more than anything else, just like any other publicly held company.

Can't a consumer *be* a shareholder as well?

I'm not here to argue who nVidia does and doesn't care about, I'm here to point out who they *should* care about. A bogus driver release method such as the one you detailed in your posts above would only show that their motives are for their own sake and their own sake alone rather than for the sake of themselves and their consumers/shareholders.

I've no patience for your iditioc rantings. Go vent your fanatic spleen elsewhere.

You couldn't formulate a coherent scapegoat and your theory of driver "trick attacks" fell through the floor. Don't get upset at me for pointing out where your brain isn't working.

 

[Gstanfor]

quote:
Could you please point out to me where I have said ATi is dead or gone please Josh?


No, because those you've chanted it all to often in threads long gone. We could take a poll if you'd like though and see how many other members recall you feeling that way.[q/]
You are a liar, and a p!ss poor liar at that. Run your little poll if you like, won't change the fact that I've never said what you allege I have.

A bogus driver release method such as the one you detailed in your posts above would only show that their motives are for their own sake and their own sake alone rather than for the sake of themselves and their consumers/shareholders.

wrong, dead wrong. a "bogus" driver release method strengthens nvidia relative to their competition which works to shareholders advantage (more profit ==> bigger share dividends). No sane company reveals trade secrets in the face of upcoming potential competition, no sane general has his battleplans on open display to the enemy prior to engagement.

 

[josh6079]

a "bogus" driver release method strengthens nvidia relative to their competition which works to shareholders advantage (more profit ==> bigger share dividends). No sane company reveals trade secrets in the face of upcoming potential competition...

**sigh**

It's useless, you'll just run around in circles all day.

You seem to think that ATi isn't a problem for nVidia, then hold them as the reason why nVidia is worried about showing what their G80 can do too early.

Could they have been holding out quality drivers because of ATi? Sure. *Should* they have been? Absolutely not.