New Roof- Which shingle/felt/warrenty?

[JEDI]

The roof on my townhouse is 20+ yrs old and missing a couple of shingles.
I neither have a ladder that reaches the roof nor do I feel comfortable walking on a pitched roof.

Instead of spending $ for new shingles, I thought it's time to replace the whole roof.

roof is ~900 sq feet.
I live in Northern VA.


got this quote from a roofer:

1) Shingle type: CertainTeed 25yr XT 3-Tab Shingles

a) $2800
Standard 15# felt & Ice/Water Shield
Warranty: 5 Year Sure Start Warranty


b) $2860
Standard 30# felt & Ice / Water Shield
Warranty: 5 Year Sure Start Warranty

c) $2960
Roofers Select and Winterguard
Warranty: 4 Star 20 Year Sure Start Plus Warranty


2) CertainTeed Lifetime Landmark Shingles

a) $2980
Standard 15# felt & Ice / Water Shield
10 Year Sure Start Warranty

b) $3040
Standard 30# felt & Ice / Water Shield
10 Year Sure Start Warranty

c) $3180
Roofers Select and Winterguard
4 Star 50 Year Sure Start Plus Warranty


3) CertainTeed Lifetime Landmark PRO

a) $3190
Standard 15# felt & Ice / Water Shield
10 Year Sure Start Warranty

b) $3250
Standard 30# felt & Ice / Water Shield
10 Year Sure Start Warranty

c) $3390
Roofers Select and Winterguard
4 Star 50 Year Sure Start Plus Warranty


Which one would you choose? Why?


EDIT:
I was wrong on warrenty on 2c and 3c. Updated it.
it's 50yr, not 20yr.
basically lifetime (of my life)

the 'Sure Start Plus' warranty (choice 1C, 2C, and 3C) covers materials AND labor.
so even if shingles go missing 19yrs from now, it'll be fully covered and no cost to me.

Edit2 (7/30 update):

HOA says I need to keep the same 3tab shingle design.
thus only xt25.

so which x25 warranty (1a, 1b or 1c)?

 

[lxskllr]

If that was my final home, I'd probably get the most expensive. It's only $600 difference between the cheapest and most expensive. I would expect it to last the rest of my life. Do it once, do it right.

You'll have to research it of course to make sure more expensive=better, and if you aren't spending the rest of your life there, cheapest is fine. $600 is $600, and it'll be someone else's problem in the future.

 

[Humpy]

The warranty typically covers manufacturing defects which almost never actually occur. 99% of the time the problem stems from design and/or installation, which often only have a 1 year warranty.

Up to a point, thicker shingles are better. The hard part is finding a conscientious installer.

 

[Jumpem]

GAF 50 year shingles and deck armor instead of felt.

 

[shimpster]

none of the shingles will last per stated warranty....

GO METAL

 

[shabby]

none of the shingles will last per stated warranty....

GO METAL

Also i would read the warranty if i were you, even though they say that these are warrantied for 25 years, if they start coming apart after 20 years you will most likely only get a fraction of the price of them back, if they fail after 5 years you will get most of your money back, minus labor of course.

 

[MustISO]

We should probably do this soon, home is 15 years old. Roof looks fine to me but probably can't tell from looking up at it.

Are those prices for the entire job or just the shingles? Is that to remove everything from the existing roof?

 

[JEDI]

We should probably do this soon, home is 15 years old. Roof looks fine to me but probably can't tell from looking up at it.

Are those prices for the entire job or just the shingles? Is that to remove everything from the existing roof?

yes, remove 1 layer of shingles and assuming the plywood underneath is fine.
it is 1 layer since I cant believe the previous owners put a 2nd layer so soon after the house was built.

 

[mizzou]

Certainteed is good stuff. I like the 10 year warrantied options, Budget for a few deck boards to be replaced too. This is also a good time to address gutter problems as well

 

[bryanl]

The labor is usually the most expensive cost, so coverage beyond then is not worth very much. I'd go for the cheapest shingles with the longest non-pro-rated labor warranty.

 

[MustISO]

yes, remove 1 layer of shingles and assuming the plywood underneath is fine.
it is 1 layer since I cant believe the previous owners put a 2nd layer so soon after the house was built.

That's not too bad, I was expecting a new roof/shingles to be more like 8K. Might be time to get some quotes and see what we get.

 

[Subyman]

Do a tear off. Replace any damaged wood. I would just do normal tar paper and architectural shingle. Ice/water barrier in the valleys. They seem to be more resilient to wind damage than three tab. Otherwise any shingle roof usually only lasts 20 years before it looks bad and will likely function for 25 years. Please don't do a metal roof. They look awful on most houses. The metal roofs are taking off around my area and it ruins the look of the quint bungalows. I imagine in 15-20 years when the paint disappears or fades horribly but they still function that the neighborhoods will look like shanty towns.

 

[JEDI]

Do a tear off. Replace any damaged wood. I would just do normal tar paper and architectural shingle. Ice/water barrier in the valleys. They seem to be more resilient to wind damage than three tab. Otherwise any shingle roof usually only lasts 20 years before it looks bad and will likely function for 25 years. Please don't do a metal roof. They look awful on most houses. The metal roofs are taking off around my area and it ruins the look of the quint bungalows. I imagine in 15-20 years when the paint disappears or fades horribly but they still function that the neighborhoods will look like shanty towns.

Architectural shingles are the landmark shingles in my op?

What weight felt?15#?30#?

 

[Subyman]

Architectural shingles are the landmark shingles in my op?

What weight felt?15#?30#?

Felt depends on the pitch of the roof. Your installer should know what to use on yours. Since you said it seems like a steep pitch then the 15 would probably be fine, but again, your installer will know whats best for your area and pitch.

Yes the landmark is what we call architectural. In my experience they hold up better over time. The architectural shingles are thicker and have more layers to them than three tab, so they hold up better to wind, breakage, and small limb damage. They also look better to most people. I'd only put 3 tab on a low end home like a rental or lower end flip to save a few bucks. The life span of 3 tab is usually about 10 years shorter than architectural.

One benefit with 3 tab is you can go over them with another layer, but I don't really recommend ever layering shingles. A tear off is recommended in every case so the roofer can check the decking and reflash as necessary.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Background: I used to be in roofing sales.

XT 3-tab (25 year) -- do not use. Architectural shingles like Landmark (30 year) and Landmark Pro (40 year) are big steps up. Architectural shingles are laminated with 2 layers glued to each other, providing much greater stiffness which adds up to much greater strength vs. high winds. (Virginia is known to see hurricanes every once in a while.) 3-tab shingles are usually rated to 65 MPH winds while Architectural shingles are rated to 100+ MPH. Ordinarily I would say there is not much functional difference between the 30 year and the 40 year (40 year is just thicker), but since it's only a $200 difference, if it were me I would probably go ahead and get the Landmark Pro.

Underlayment -- don't go with felt of either 15# or 30# weight, and I don't like the Certainteed Roofer's Choice stuff either, which is just felt reinforced with fiberglass. I like a full synthetic such as RhinoRoof U20. Synthetic underlayment is a much better performer than any kind of felt, and it's usually not any more expensive than good 30# felt.

WinterGuard on the eaves and in the valleys. This is pretty much standard.

Also make sure they do a full evaluation of the attic/roof ventilation. If there is any decent size ridge (say 10ft or longer), there should be ridge vent on it. Do you have soffit vents?

Metal roof = waste of money. Honestly not any more durable than a good Architectural shingle. They get dented and rusty from hail = need to be replaced anyway. Plus they're about 2x the cost.

Make sure they do a full cleanup including multiple passes with a magnetic sweeper over the entire grounds to pick up nails.

The 4 Star Warranty is basically a marketing ploy, but it does tell you that you are dealing with somebody who is properly certified by Certainteed to offer that warranty, which is a good thing.

 

[JEDI]

slashbinslashbash,

wow..thx for the info!

"WinterGuard on the eaves and in the valleys. This is pretty much standard."
what do you mean standard?
Winterguard is only for option 'C' in each of the 3 choices.

What's wrong with 15# or 30# felt?

so you recommend choice 3C in my OP for $3390?

 

[JEDI]

got a quote from another roofer.

$4000 for GAF Timberline lifetime roofs.
guaranteed for life.
ie: if shingles are missing 20yrs from now, it'll be replaced for free including labor.

it's transferable to the next homeowner.
(I don't plan to be in this house 20yrs from now. I should be retired by then.)


What do you guys think of GAF Timberline lifetime roofs for $4000 for my townhouse?

 

[Jumpem]

got a quote from another roofer.

$4000 for GAF Timberline lifetime roofs.
guaranteed for life.
ie: if shingles are missing 20yrs from now, it'll be replaced for free including labor.

it's transferable to the next homeowner.
(I don't plan to be in this house 20yrs from now. I should be retired by then.)


What do you guys think of GAF Timberline lifetime roofs for $4000 for my townhouse?

I would.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

slashbinslashbash,

wow..thx for the info!

"WinterGuard on the eaves and in the valleys. This is pretty much standard."
what do you mean standard?
Winterguard is only for option 'C' in each of the 3 choices.

What's wrong with 15# or 30# felt?

so you recommend choice 3C in my OP for $3390?

Eh, Winterguard is just upgraded Ice and Water Shield. Pretty much the same thing.

Felt is literally paper that's been impregnated with asphalt. It sucks. It feels like construction paper that you use in elementary school. Synthetic underlayment is simply much better. It is basically Tyvek. It is pretty much impervious to water and forms a complete secondary water barrier on your roof. It never wrinkles and it doesn't tear as easily and it's easier to install correctly and walk on for the installers. Which is actually a big deal for you, since if they are not worried about falling off or tearing the paper then they can concentrate on getting the shingles nailed correctly.

Yes, I recommend 3C but see if you can get them to swap out full synthetic underlayment like RhinoRoof U20. It should not cost any more.

GAF "Lifetime" warranty is really just a manufacturer's defect warranty. It does not cover faulty installation. I know, I used to sell GAF roofs exclusively. You need to clarify what warranty you're getting there. The shingles come with a "Lifetime" warranty but it only covers defects. The next step up is their System Plus warranty. It costs the roofer $70, but we used to give it away for free. That one covers some aspects of installation. Or ask about the Golden Pledge warranty which covers pretty much everything but adds $hundreds or even $thousands to your cost. (Pricing for that warranty depends on roof size.)

$4000 sounds expensive to me. We would have charged around $3000 for GAF Timberline HD shingles with a System Plus warranty on a roof your size. (You said 900 square feet, which is a pretty small roof, but I suppose about right for a townhouse. You're sure that's correct?) But that's in Texas, and markets vary in the pricing of both the materials and the labor... but your previous quotes are putting a floor on those prices. $4000 would be about right with the Golden Pledge warranty, I think. But from what you said already, apples to apples, the CertainTeed guy is the better value. GAF shingles may be a little bit better than CertainTeed, but they aren't 33% better.

 

[Subyman]

slashbinslashbash, what do you think of metal valleys? I've seen them on houses before but have never messed with them myself. I like the look and assume the performance would be great.

 

[JEDI]

whoops.. I was wrong on the warranty on the higher options.
for 2c and 3c, it's '4star 50 Year sure start plus' warranty.

updated my op.

with this new info, it seems that the regular Landmark shingles is optimal (choice 2C in my OP)?
same 50yr warranty as the Landmark Pro.

it's backed by CertainTeed so even if the installer goes out of business, CertainTeed will cover materials AND labor according to their website.

so there's no reason to buy LandMark Pro?

 

[JEDI]

Yes, I recommend 3C but see if you can get them to swap out full synthetic underlayment like RhinoRoof U20. It should not cost any more.

You said 900 square feet, which is a pretty small roof, but I suppose about right for a townhouse. You're sure that's correct?

But that's in Texas, and markets vary in the pricing of both the materials and the labor... but your previous quotes are putting a floor on those prices. $4000 would be about right with the Golden Pledge warranty, I think. But from what you said already, apples to apples, the CertainTeed guy is the better value. GAF shingles may be a little bit better than CertainTeed, but they aren't 33% better.

and yes, roof is 900 sq ft according to their satellite service. pitch of roof is 7/12.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

slashbinslashbash, what do you think of metal valleys? I've seen them on houses before but have never messed with them myself. I like the look and assume the performance would be great.

Metal valleys used to be all there was, and they are still pretty standard on new construction. The problem is that they can start to rust through before the rest of the roof needs to be replaced. Removing a metal valley is usually pretty destructive to the shingles around it, so it really only makes sense to replace them when doing a whole roof. They are usually covered up by overlapping shingles. Exposed metal valleys are nowadays just a specialty thing. Go for one if you like the look, but I would still recommend an Ice & Water Shield underneath. Exposed valley metal needs to be a special kind that has a raised divider in the center to keep water from flowing from one side of the valley to the other, which can lead to water intrusion under the shingles. Standard valley metal (that is fully covered up by shingles) is just a roll of sheet metal that is rolled out and bent to match the shape of the valley.

I'm not really familiar with the Ice & Water Shield that Certainteed uses, but the GAF product (called StormGuard) is a full 30" across, which is 50% wider than the standard 20" valley metal. It is a quite thick membrane that adheres directly to the roof decking in the valleys. It is self-healing to seal up around any nails that go through (which there would be nails to hold down the shingles) The underlayment is then overlapped on top of it.

Actually that sealing around the nails thing is the second big performance advantage over metal (the other being the width). A nail hole through metal is never going to close up. Again, if you like the look then go for it, but put StormGuard underneath.

Most of your better roofers nowadays use StormGuard (or equivalent) instead of metal in the valleys, just as a standard feature. It is required for most of GAF's warranties, and I assume the same holds for Certainteed and Owens Corning. And it's really not that much more expensive. Maybe $50 material cost difference for an average sized roof. Again, nowadays you find metal valleys mostly in new construction or older roofs.

Note, I am speaking from my experience in the Houston area. Certain parts of the country have different roofing standards due to different climate as well as simple tradition. You don't find many Spanish Tile roofs in New England, while you don't find many Cedar Shake roofs in Southern California. In the northern half of the US, Ice and Water Shield is *required* along all eaves in order to prevent leaking due to ice dams. (Where ice freezes out on the overhangs, but further back up the roof the ice melts due to the warmth of the house, and so you basically have a pool of standing water on top of your roof.) Nobody in the Houston area bothers.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

whoops.. I was wrong on the warranty on the higher options.
for 2c and 3c, it's '4star 50 Year sure start plus' warranty.

updated my op.

with this new info, it seems that the regular Landmark shingles is optimal (choice 2C in my OP)?
same 50yr warranty as the Landmark Pro.

it's backed by CertainTeed so even if the installer goes out of business, CertainTeed will cover materials AND labor according to their website.

so there's no reason to buy LandMark Pro?

I would go for 2C or 3C. Only $200 difference. It is a thicker shingle and will give better protection. The warranty (even a good warranty like Sure Start Plus) is again kind of a gimmick. Most roofs need replacing due to weather events (hail/wind) which is covered by insurance, not a warranty. But it's relatively cheap so it's easy peace of mind.

JEDI -- Again, I would request a Synthetic Underlayment instead of the Roofers' Select. In Houston, none of the roofers that I saw used felt paper. Felt paper was only on new construction. Synthetic is also required by some GAF warranties. Roofers' Select is Certainteed's felt reinforced with fiberglass. Certainteed makes a synthetic called DiamondDeck. I would request it! Added cost should be $50 at most.

 

[Subyman]

Metal valleys used to be all there was, and they are still pretty standard on new construction. The problem is that they can start to rust through before the rest of the roof needs to be replaced. Removing a metal valley is usually pretty destructive to the shingles around it, so it really only makes sense to replace them when doing a whole roof. They are usually covered up by overlapping shingles. Exposed metal valleys are nowadays just a specialty thing. Go for one if you like the look, but I would still recommend an Ice & Water Shield underneath. Exposed valley metal needs to be a special kind that has a raised divider in the center to keep water from flowing from one side of the valley to the other, which can lead to water intrusion under the shingles. Standard valley metal (that is fully covered up by shingles) is just a roll of sheet metal that is rolled out and bent to match the shape of the valley.

Thanks for the reply. I was talking about the exposed metal valleys. I think it gives the house a unique look. I do see why you'd do ice and water under the valley still to close the nail holes.