New president's space race (or race to get rid of oil?)

[mozirry]

We need a space race a'la 1957-1975 version of the oil crisis.

Version 1 : We want to get to the moon and orbit space before everyone else
Version 2 : We want to be the first people to completley remove oil dependency

Both are dramatic, and if anything, Version 2 offers more strategic, economic, and social benefits.

I don't even know what the cure is going to be, hell it could be something real simple, we just need the smartest people in the nation or smartest people captured from other countries to make this happen.

I would imagine even someone high up in government just mentioning such a proposition would make OPEC weak in the knees and start increasing output like some sort of cocaine addiction

 

[StageLeft]

Good timing. WIth the job cuts at the space program we can put these people to work on more contemporary and pressing issues than a trip to mars to play with aliens.

 

[sandorski]

sounds like a good idea. Hopefully the next Admin isn't tied so closely to the Oil Industry and you might get close.

 

[apoppin]

removing oil dependency is easy

once we collectively realize that "depending" on oil to function as a Society is the same thing as a drug-addict "requiring" crack cocaine to live.

--it is an illusion

If i remember my history correctly, didn't Germany lose their Oil fields in N. Africa in 1943[?]? Yet their war machine rolled on without a hitch as they converted to Alcohol. The English were rationing gasoline while the German autos rolled on.

Pull the plug on drinking the blood of the last civilization - it deserves to lie untouched, in the ground - it's use is poisoning this planet

Once that is accomplished, the economic balance will restore itself and we can reach for the stars

 

[MadRat]

Late in WW2 Germany was never capable of sustaining more than 60% of their oil needs once the supply lines were severed.

 

[palehorse]

I've said all along that we need to initiate a 21st century version of The Manhattan Project... only this time, it needs to be the invention of a truly viable alternative fuel source.

We could do it.. that is, if any of our politicians REALLY wanted to... good luck with that.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: MadRat
Late in WW2 Germany was never capable of sustaining more than 60% of their oil needs once the supply lines were severed.

so i was right? .. the war effort did not slow down because petroleum usage was severely curtailed.

What if America was forced to reduce 40% of it oil imports immediately?

nothing would stop. alternates would become instantly practical although the prices would steeply rise in the meantime

Yet we could prepare for it with a transition to alcohol and alternate energies
- and i do NOT mean using food crops like corn for alcohol - that is beyond STUPID! - grow annual plants that will thrive on currently unusable land for alcohol production

 

[IGBT]

..noble mission indeed. But I'll bet no matter what you come up with the eco-theists will find something wrong with it. The eco-theist agenda simply want's to send us all back to an era of robes and sandals.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: IGBT
..noble mission indeed. But I'll bet no matter what you come up with the eco-theists will find something wrong with it. The eco-theist agenda simply want's to send us all back to an era of robes and sandals.

it is much worse than that ... even the planet is melting its ice caps and the pretty blue is now a dirty brown .. what kind of a distress signal does it take to wake up mankind?

-for everyone currently alive - their *own children's future* is uncertain

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: apoppin
-for everyone currently alive - their *own children's future* is uncertain

what about those who are dead? are their children OK?

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: IGBT
..noble mission indeed. But I'll bet no matter what you come up with the eco-theists will find something wrong with it. The eco-theist agenda simply want's to send us all back to an era of robes and sandals.

it is much worse than that ... even the planet is melting its ice caps and the pretty blue is now a dirty brown .. what kind of a distress signal does it take to wake up mankind?

-for everyone currently alive - their *own children's future* is uncertain

..so what's your favorite flavor koolaid?? anything algore mixes I'll bet.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: IGBT
..noble mission indeed. But I'll bet no matter what you come up with the eco-theists will find something wrong with it. The eco-theist agenda simply want's to send us all back to an era of robes and sandals.

it is much worse than that ... even the planet is melting its ice caps and the pretty blue is now a dirty brown .. what kind of a distress signal does it take to wake up mankind?

-for everyone currently alive - their *own children's future* is uncertain

..so what's your favorite flavor koolaid?? anything algore mixes I'll bet.

what's your's - Flaming Blood of Dinosaurs?
-Perhaps something to keep a Beast of an SUV carrying a single owner's living room around with them in luxury everywhere they go belching sh!t into the air while most of the planet's population survives without clean water, basic medical care or enough food to eat?

and soon we're all going to be chin deep in garbage, treading water from melting ice caps and still tossing rockets at the moon in the vain hope that we can get SOME of us away from our self-created mess to spread our selfish infection to other worlds?

i think not

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: IGBT
..noble mission indeed. But I'll bet no matter what you come up with the eco-theists will find something wrong with it. The eco-theist agenda simply want's to send us all back to an era of robes and sandals.

it is much worse than that ... even the planet is melting its ice caps and the pretty blue is now a dirty brown .. what kind of a distress signal does it take to wake up mankind?

-for everyone currently alive - their *own children's future* is uncertain

..so what's your favorite flavor koolaid?? anything algore mixes I'll bet.

what's your's - Flaming Blood of Dinosaurs?
-Perhaps something to keep a Beast of an SUV carrying a single owner's living room around with them in luxury everywhere they go belching sh!t into the air while most of the planet's population survives without clean water, basic medical care or enough food to eat?

and we're going to be chin deep in garbage tossing rockets at the moon in the hope that we can spread our selfish infection to other worlds?

i think not

..you should go to Cuba. you and your ilk belong on an island all your own. complete with robes and scandals.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: IGBT
..noble mission indeed. But I'll bet no matter what you come up with the eco-theists will find something wrong with it. The eco-theist agenda simply want's to send us all back to an era of robes and sandals.

it is much worse than that ... even the planet is melting its ice caps and the pretty blue is now a dirty brown .. what kind of a distress signal does it take to wake up mankind?

-for everyone currently alive - their *own children's future* is uncertain

..so what's your favorite flavor koolaid?? anything algore mixes I'll bet.

what's your's - Flaming Blood of Dinosaurs?
-Perhaps something to keep a Beast of an SUV carrying a single owner's living room around with them in luxury everywhere they go belching sh!t into the air while most of the planet's population survives without clean water, basic medical care or enough food to eat?

and soon we're all going to be chin deep in garbage, treading water from melting ice caps and still tossing rockets at the moon in the vain hope that we can get SOME of us away from our self-created mess to spread our selfish infection to other worlds?

i think not

..you should go to Cuba. you and your ilk belong on an island all your own. complete with robes and scandals.

Sure, if you will pay for my vacation, i will be glad to visit and report back for P&N .. Didn't SickBeast do something similar that turned into a major flame-fest in OT - or was it here in P&N?

Anyway .. i actually lived on a tropical island with consistent large surf for 8 years; i forecast the surf professionally for several of those years .. i think i would get bored with Cuba more quickly as it is only 'good' in the hurricane season. i get more consistently good and sometimes excellent Surf at the reefs of La Jolla in San Diego now then i would ever get in Cuba.

My "ilk" tended to include world class surfers as my company and some of them are also my friends. i am certain Jack Johnson [of Hawaii musician fame and surf videographer] wouldn't deny knowing me .. i knew him and his brother Pete - a lifeguard for years and we surfed the Big Waves of Pipeline together. My next-door neighbor was surfing legend Gerry Lopez [whose buddy still is Arnold S., Cali Governor] and i know he is active for the environment as he is really concerned for his son's future - as are most Pro surfers.

. . and sandals - flip flops - and baggies is more my "style"
-robes are usually only for after a shower


Surfers know better and we are in tune with the environment - at the least when we are surfing ... we were among the very first to report that our oceans were dying.

EDITED damn it .. more grammar!

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: apoppin
If i remember my history correctly, didn't Germany lose their Oil fields in N. Africa in 1943[?]? Yet their war machine rolled on without a hitch as they converted to Alcohol. The English were rationing gasoline while the German autos rolled on.

you don't remember your history correctly. germany received most of its oil from romania and azerbaijan. they did synthesize oil from coal in the later parts of the war, but it was tremendously expensive to do so. they also got some oil from germany and austria, but it was low quality stuff that yielded very little gasoline. their lack of fuel crippled their war machine.

Strategic Bombing Survey, dated September 30, 1945, summed it up:

"The German oil supply was tight throughout the war, and was a
controlling factor in military operations. The chief source of supply,
and the only source for aviation gasoline, was 13 synthetic plants
together with a small production from three additional ones that
started operations in 1944. The major sources of products refined from
crude oil were the Ploesti oil fields in Rumania and the Hungarian
fields which together accounted for about a quarter of the total
supply of liquid fuels in 1943. In addition, there was a small but
significant Austrian and domestic production. The refineries at
Ploesti were attacked, beginning with a daring and costly low-level
attack in August 1943. These had only limited effects; deliveries
increased until April 1944 when the attacks were resumed. The 1944
attacks, together with mining of the Danube, materially reduced
Rumanian deliveries. In August 1944, Russian occupation eliminated
this source of supply and dependence on the synthetic plants became
even greater than before."

northern africa didn't have much oil production then (it still doesn't have much oil production, iirc). a very real threat that the british were facing in northern africa was the loss of persian gulf oil fields. had the 8th army not held rommel, the nazi machine would have been clear all the way through, and anti-colonialist forces throughout arabia and into iran would have welcomed the germans. one of the main reasons rommel couldn't push through el alamein was that he was dangerously low on fuel.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: apoppin
removing oil dependency is easy

once we collectively realize that "depending" on oil to function as a Society is the same thing as a drug-addict "requiring" crack cocaine to live.

--it is an illusion

If i remember my history correctly, didn't Germany lose their Oil fields in N. Africa in 1943[?]? Yet their war machine rolled on without a hitch as they converted to Alcohol. The English were rationing gasoline while the German autos rolled on.

Pull the plug on drinking the blood of the last civilization - it deserves to lie untouched, in the ground - it's use is poisoning this planet

Once that is accomplished, the economic balance will restore itself and we can reach for the stars

The Germans had large oil fields in Romania and in other parts of Europe. Germany always had some kind of oil crunch though. They relied on Synthetic oil often.

btw the only rolling the German war machine did after 43 was in reverse

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
I've said all along that we need to initiate a 21st century version of The Manhattan Project... only this time, it needs to be the invention of a truly viable alternative fuel source.

I'm up for that. Less money to the Middle East the better. Who do we elect to get it done?

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: IGBT
..noble mission indeed. But I'll bet no matter what you come up with the eco-theists will find something wrong with it. The eco-theist agenda simply want's to send us all back to an era of robes and sandals.

it is much worse than that ... even the planet is melting its ice caps and the pretty blue is now a dirty brown .. what kind of a distress signal does it take to wake up mankind?

-for everyone currently alive - their *own children's future* is uncertain

..so what's your favorite flavor koolaid?? anything algore mixes I'll bet.

Just stop posting, tool.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: palehorse74
I've said all along that we need to initiate a 21st century version of The Manhattan Project... only this time, it needs to be the invention of a truly viable alternative fuel source.

I'm up for that. Less money to the Middle East the better. Who do we elect to get it done?

What do you think corn ethanol is? That is our version of the Manhattan project. Fuel based on a food crop.

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
I've said all along that we need to initiate a 21st century version of The Manhattan Project... only this time, it needs to be the invention of a truly viable alternative fuel source.

We could do it.. that is, if any of our politicians REALLY wanted to... good luck with that.

I would nearly agree, but I would not limit it to one fuel source. I would suggest a truly viable alternative system of power sources.
IMO we should strive to not bound to any one fuel.

 

[senseamp]

We don't need another Manhattan project, we need to use the results of the first one.
We need nuclear power, and lots of it. Nuclear power + electrical vehicles, solve the CO2 and the dependence on foreign oil.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: IGBT
..so what's your favorite flavor koolaid?? anything algore mixes I'll bet.

..you should go to Cuba. you and your ilk belong on an island all your own. complete with robes and scandals.

Yeah, because anyone who gives a flying fvck about the environment worships Al Gore, is communist, and wants to send us back to the dark ages. Pathetic. :roll:

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: senseamp
We don't need another Manhattan project, we need to use the results of the first one.
We need nuclear power, and lots of it. Nuclear power + electrical vehicles, solve the CO2 and the dependence on foreign oil.

What about the spent batteries and nuclear waste? Can we properly and safely dispose of them? (not meant to be a stupid question but may be)

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: apoppin
If i remember my history correctly, didn't Germany lose their Oil fields in N. Africa in 1943[?]? Yet their war machine rolled on without a hitch as they converted to Alcohol. The English were rationing gasoline while the German autos rolled on.

you don't remember your history correctly. germany received most of its oil from romania and azerbaijan. they did synthesize oil from coal in the later parts of the war, but it was tremendously expensive to do so. they also got some oil from germany and austria, but it was low quality stuff that yielded very little gasoline. their lack of fuel crippled their war machine.

Strategic Bombing Survey, dated September 30, 1945, summed it up:

"The German oil supply was tight throughout the war, and was a
controlling factor in military operations. The chief source of supply,
and the only source for aviation gasoline, was 13 synthetic plants
together with a small production from three additional ones that
started operations in 1944. The major sources of products refined from
crude oil were the Ploesti oil fields in Rumania and the Hungarian
fields which together accounted for about a quarter of the total
supply of liquid fuels in 1943. In addition, there was a small but
significant Austrian and domestic production. The refineries at
Ploesti were attacked, beginning with a daring and costly low-level
attack in August 1943. These had only limited effects; deliveries
increased until April 1944 when the attacks were resumed. The 1944
attacks, together with mining of the Danube, materially reduced
Rumanian deliveries. In August 1944, Russian occupation eliminated
this source of supply and dependence on the synthetic plants became
even greater than before."

northern africa didn't have much oil production then (it still doesn't have much oil production, iirc). a very real threat that the british were facing in northern africa was the loss of persian gulf oil fields. had the 8th army not held rommel, the nazi machine would have been clear all the way through, and anti-colonialist forces throughout arabia and into iran would have welcomed the germans. one of the main reasons rommel couldn't push through el alamein was that he was dangerously low on fuel.

thanks for the history lesson; i simply didn't remember or know the exact details - that's why i asked for 'help'. Fortunately for me, it doesn't change my "point" that:

The chief source of supply, and the only source for aviation gasoline, was 13 synthetic plants together with a small production from three additional ones that started operations in 1944

A nation in the middle of a War gets their oil production severely curtailed and has to switch to synthetic and i believe ethanol. The war doesn't stop. So it tells me - over 60 years later and with advancing technology - that IF America *Stops a War* and switches to synthetic - and recycled oil and converted food grease - to replace oil and moves 100% to Ethanol, it appears that we could actually *export* our oil

What do you think corn ethanol is? That is our version of the Manhattan project. Fuel based on a food crop.

That is a *serious mistake* imo - we need to use NON-food crops that grow on currently UNUSED land for ethanol production.

Nuclear energy and alternate energy including Wind and Solar can supply the energy for all things non-"automobile" ... we should be *Dependant* on what is within our own borders - and eventually we should reduce petroleum production to zero.



it makes SO much economic sense - our trade balance will immediately begin to restore itself - and we can tell the Middle East that they have lost all their strategic value to US and they can ALL go and F-each other for all we care.
--At THAT point we can think of the "moon"