New poll says only 1 in 5 approve of the removal of the ten commandments

[friedpie]

From CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/ten.commandments/index.html

The new CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll found 77 percent of the 1,009 Americans interviewed earlier this week disapproved of U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson's order to remove the monument.

Good to know most people have good sense.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: friedpie
From CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/ten.commandments/index.html

The new CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll found 77 percent of the 1,009 Americans interviewed earlier this week disapproved of U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson's order to remove the monument.

Good to know most people have good sense.

I have a feeling that if the statue does removed permanently, it will only be the first of many. Any statue/monument that is in question will have to be removed, because it will offend some group of the population.

 

[konichiwa]

I don't really understand how people are confused about this issue. The government cannot endorse a specific religion above other religions; period. That's the purpose of the oft-quoted "separation of church and state" affirmation.

The fact that a state (federally-nominated...*shudder*) judge is venerating this statue of the commandments, thus exalting the Judeo-Christian faith among all others, seems to violate that statute. Where's the argument?

 

[XZeroII]

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness

!!! The Declaration of Independance should be removed from all history books and public places!!!

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: friedpie
From CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/27/ten.commandments/index.html

The new CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll found 77 percent of the 1,009 Americans interviewed earlier this week disapproved of U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson's order to remove the monument.

Good to know most people have good sense.

Good thing it doesn't matter what the majority believe

 

[Spyro]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness

!!! The Declaration of Independance should be removed from all history books and public places!!!

Bingo!!! Let's start a petition drive!

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness

!!! The Declaration of Independance should be removed from all history books and public places!!!

The CREATOR is a black woman.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness

!!! The Declaration of Independance should be removed from all history books and public places!!!

We obviously have a creator...whether it be a benevolent force or some fluke in universal dynamics. It would be very different if it said "...that they are endowed by jesus with certain unalienable rights"

 

[Spyro]

 

[Tab]

I wouldn't be surprised if those who voted are all right wing church nuts.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness

!!! The Declaration of Independance should be removed from all history books and public places!!!

Again, while it's things like this the religious zealots constantly refer to, they are a totally different animal. Belief in a "creator" is a common theme among all major religions, therefore the government is not endorsing one religion above others. Creationism is, in general, a widely-held belief among religions.

A more germane example would be if it said "they are endowed by the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost," or "they are endowed by Muhammad," or "they are endowed by Shiva," in which case, "The Declaration of Independance[sic] should be removed from all history books and public places."

How would you feel if the DoI said one of those things above (particularly one that pertains to a religion to which you do not affiliate) or if another judge put a five ton bust of Satan in his courtroom and suggested that he believed the nation's laws and edicts were based around satanism, and that his judgements would be based around satanism?

 

[Moonbeam]

I can't share the details with heathen.

 

[Moonbeam]

How would you feel if the DoI said one of those things above (particularly one that pertains to a religion to which you do not affiliate) or if another judge put a five ton bust of Satan in his courtroom and suggested that he believed the nation's laws and edicts were based around satanism, and that his judgements would be based around satanism?
---------------------------------------
Now that's the kind of court I want to be tried in. "Guilty! Release the prisoner at once!"

 

[JellyBaby]

This is partly why democrats lose elections. They're completely out of touch with America on the issue of religion.

I'm not religious myself but our government was designed based off ideas and principles laid forth in the christian bible and I recognize that. It doesn't frighten me. Early Americans had no trouble whatsoever with statues and the like and in fact many of our prominent government buildings sport references to scripture. There has never been a threat of establishing a Church of America and there never will.

The only thing acts like these accomplish in the short haul is to take spirituality out of the lives of the common man and make elitist control freaks very pleased with themselves. In the long haul they may pave way toward a future where absolute truth does not exist because people will never even bother to think in terms of truth, only the law de jur.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
How would you feel if the DoI said one of those things above (particularly one that pertains to a religion to which you do not affiliate) or if another judge put a five ton bust of Satan in his courtroom and suggested that he believed the nation's laws and edicts were based around satanism, and that his judgements would be based around satanism?
---------------------------------------
Now that's the kind of court I want to be tried in. "Guilty! Release the prisoner at once!"

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
This is partly why democrats lose elections. They're completely out of touch with America on the issue of religion.

I'm not religious myself but our government was designed based off ideas and principles laid forth in the christian bible and I recognize that. It doesn't frighten me. Early Americans had no trouble whatsoever with statues and the like and in fact many of our prominent government buildings sport references to scripture. There has never been a threat of establishing a Church of America and there never will.

The only thing acts like these accomplish in the short haul is to take spirituality out of the lives of the common man and make elitist control freaks very pleased with themselves. In the long haul they may pave way toward a future where absolute truth does not exist because people will never even bother to think in terms of truth, only the law de jur.

"There are no eternal facts, as there are no absolute truths."

-Nietzsche

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
In the long haul they may pave way toward a future where absolute truth does not exist because people will never even bother to think in terms of truth, only the law de jur.

Absolute truth has never existed...at least outside of people's minds. I can only hope for the day when the majority of the world realises this and is philosophicaly mature enough to handle it.

 

[Gaard]

There appears to be two different issues here. The removal of the monument and Moore's refusal to abide by the higher court's decision. Whether or not you agree with the decision of Judge Thompson, Moore should've abided by Thompson's decision. The man's a judge for Pete's sake. He can fight the decidion in a court of law. By not abiding by a higher courts ruling, IMO he should turn in his robe.

 

[JellyBaby]

"There are no eternal facts, as there are no absolute truths."

If there are no absolute truths then there can be no be rights either for a right can't reliably stem from a higher power or natural order. Law can then exist apart from justice because there's no greater basis for law to protect and enhance our rights.

Making up our facts as we go along is like building a house of sticks. Eventually she's gonna fall since there's no trustworthy foundation to rely upon.

Nietzsche may be right and he's a far better philosopher than I but I wonder if he came to that conclusion because that's the outcome he preferred.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: Gaard
There appears to be two different issues here. The removal of the monument and Moore's refusal to abide by the higher court's decision. Whether or not you agree with the decision of Judge Thompson, Moore should've abided by Thompson's decision. The man's a judge for Pete's sake. He can fight the decidion in a court of law. By not abiding by a higher courts ruling, IMO he should turn in his robe.

This is true that he should have abided, but there are some instances when you must use passive resistance or civil disobediance to make a point. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

"There are no eternal facts, as there are no absolute truths."

If there are no absolute truths then there can be no be rights either for a right can't reliably stem from a higher power or natural order. Law can then exist apart from justice because there's no greater basis for law to protect and enhance our rights.

Making up our facts as we go along is like building a house of sticks. Eventually she's gonna fall since there's no trustworthy foundation to rely upon.

Nietzsche may be right and he's a far better philosopher than I but I wonder if he came to that conclusion because that's the outcome he preferred.

I would agree; there are no undeniable, unalienable, absolute rights. The need to find absoluteness in everything is a unnerving trend today, in my opinion. The beauty of law and justice is that it is, by definition, NOT absolute.

We have judges and courts and juries and parliaments for that reason...

 

[JellyBaby]

Absolute truth has never existed...at least outside of people's minds. I can only hope for the day when the majority of the world realises this and is philosophicaly mature enough to handle it.

Truth is like a memory. You can often recognize it that way as if the knowledge was always there below the surface. Whether or not it exists without people is a philosophical question. I would say god exists without us. She has other critters to do her bidding.

How can you be philosophically mature without ever thinking of matters of the spirit and absolute truth?

 

[JellyBaby]

I would agree; there are no undeniable, unalienable, absolute rights. The need to find absoluteness in everything is a unnerving trend today, in my opinion. The beauty of law and justice is that it is, by definition, NOT absolute.

We have judges and courts and juries and parliaments for that reason...

I'm not sure that's a trend I see. It has been so in the past when certain faiths have been dominant.

It makes sense that there can be no justice when laws are absolute because laws must consider circumstance. But I think that just might be an absolute truth.

Maybe Beamer will bless us with some inspiration here. I only think about this stuff part time.

 

[konichiwa]

At least in America, particularly with conservative presidents and leaders, (I don't know if you read it or if I could find a link to it but there was a post on here earlier about a psychological evaluation of GWBush and a lot of it was his uneasiness towards uncertainty; he prefers absolute edicts rather than ideas qualified with circumstance: with us or against us, etc), there has been a pretty obvious trend of absolutism that I've seen.

We must be eternally vigilant, fight the terrorists wherever they are, with us or against us, tax cuts create jobs, PERIOD...etc

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby

Absolute truth has never existed...at least outside of people's minds. I can only hope for the day when the majority of the world realises this and is philosophicaly mature enough to handle it.

Truth is like a memory. You can often recognize it that way as if the knowledge was always there below the surface.

I suspect that this recognision of "truth" is nothing more than a subconcious effort to attach meaning and concreteness to this existance which is far from concrete.

How can you be philosophically mature without ever thinking of matters of the spirit and absolute truth?

I've thought about the spirit and absolute truth and I'm pretty sure that they are both BS.