I was just kind of curious with all the hype/praise of SSD's lately, what are the big names in platter drives doing about all of this? The velociraptor, for example is a pinnacle of platter drive tech, but are there any plans to make this or any other drive like it faster, more competative with SSD's? I for one have an SSD, and while it is fast I have a feeling that if WD wanted to they could make the VR faster and bigger and certainly be even bigger a threat to SSD's. My major gripe about the SSD is that the size and price are tough to swallow(even though I did...) and that article about Intel SSD's losing speed as the OS becomes fragmented is concerning to me. Hopefully they can resolve this through software... but back to the topic, anyone have any thoughts or info on new drives?
New platter drive(Velociraptor... etc) in the future?
- Thread starter allthatisman
- Start date
taltamir
Lifer
- Mar 21, 2004
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id say the pinnacle of platter tech is the 2TB WD greenpower... for speed the velociraptor is impressively fast, but it does not compare to SCSI 15k rpm drives, which in turn don't compare to specialized SSD implementations (not the kinds you see in newegg...)
and SSDs just win... i don't expect to see another velociraptor.
and SSDs just win... i don't expect to see another velociraptor.
I'm pretty sure WD just came out with 500gb platters, so I guess it's possible they could make a new Raptor with them.
IMO SSDs are better.
IMO SSDs are better.
I freaking hope there will be a new raptor drive... right now it seems too late to grab a velociraptor. I was gona get one in sept but my local store was sold out and prices now are higher than they were then (I'm in Canada). A 1.8inch platter drive with a 15k rpm motor would be nice for the next raptor drive...
I thought for sure if they were ever going to debut a 15k rpm raptor it was going to be with the release of the velocipator.
IMO they missed a critical opportunity to differentiate their raptor enthusiast line from the encroaching performance of the mainstream 7200rpm drives from below and the ever declining GB/$ performance SSD's from above.
Pretty sure their raptors are in a checkmate situation, but the game may have 1 or 2 more moves until this eventuality is finalized with a tipping over of the king.
Zap
Elite Member
- Oct 13, 1999
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Why not? It would be easy for WD to crank out 500GB VelociRaptors using the platter density technology from the 2TB drive. Crank the RPMs a bit higher to get a bit more performance and reduce latencies a hair. Then, sell it for under $200. You'd have a drive at per-gigabyte price points that SSDs still can't touch, coupled with consistent performance.
About the only thing that a platter HDD can't touch with SSDs at this time is access times. For transfer rates*, HDDs are still competitive. For capacity, HDDs can't be touched.
*For the price of a top end SSD such as the Intel 80GB, you can buy two 150GB VelociRaptors for RAID0 and get almost as good transfer rate, three times the write speeds, four times the capacity and go home with $100 in your pocket.
I'm pretty sure that the newer SSDs are getting 240mb/s read speed. Can a Raptor really keep up with that?
I personally can't understand the people still interested in Raptors and 15K Cheetahs when SSDs are better all-around for similar cost. You can even pop one into a laptop which is fantastic.
Rumor from Jun 08 about a 20K VelociRaptor
I'd say there's still a small window for high RPM HDDs to succeed, but that window is quickly closing. Once SSDs increase capacity a bit and hit the $1-1.50 per GB range they'll be ready for mainstream consumption. They're getting pretty close to that price range, they just need to boost capacity imo.
But ya I think a 20K RPM 500GB VelociRaptor would still do very well priced at maybe $250 in today's SSD climate. Now we just need WD to execute.
I'd say there's still a small window for high RPM HDDs to succeed, but that window is quickly closing. Once SSDs increase capacity a bit and hit the $1-1.50 per GB range they'll be ready for mainstream consumption. They're getting pretty close to that price range, they just need to boost capacity imo.
But ya I think a 20K RPM 500GB VelociRaptor would still do very well priced at maybe $250 in today's SSD climate. Now we just need WD to execute.
Rubycon
Madame President
- Aug 10, 2005
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Because STR is not really of importance with everyday use. The folks that really work with their pc's also want to be able to get things done yesterday! Funny how the biggest complaint of current desktop SSD's is when multi tasking. They even have tweaks to reduce this defect. Spindles are definitely still IN for fact. Unless you have millions to spend on a true ram storage solution, 15K SAS/FCAL arrays attached to intelligent hosts are where the performance in the real world exists.
There will probably be no (moving part) successor to the Velociraptor. They may have their own branded SSD but let's concentrate on fixing the serious issues SSD's have right now!
SSD's in portable computers are a definite advantage particularly when capacities improve AND the mobile chipsets get i/o enhancements to take advantage of the improved (quick) access to information and reduced latencies.
SCSI is slow comapred to todays SAS drives. Even SATA sucks when multitaksing comapred to SAS, but the outlay is wallet emptying. Not mention HD's are still a huge bottleneck in a system, it takes multiple ones to load up the bus.
I agree with what Ruby said though.
taltamir
Lifer
- Mar 21, 2004
- 13,576
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they could, but it is a big gamble with investing money into developing such a drive, where they can see how clearly drives like the intel X25-E have dominated... and the intel switch to 32nm in Q4 of THIS YEAR for SSD tech, as well as the rush of companies like samsung and others to compete with intel, makes such a prospect too risky. They will develop a drive that will be expensive, small, and most likely only hold the crown for a VERY short time... they don't need to make a better product, they need to make a PROFITABLE product, and such a product has too great a risk of not being profitable.
On the other hand, any investment into tech improvement in SSD will yield results for many drive generations to come, as they are clearly outtaking the market. This is why companies STOPPED development of CRTs long before LCDs reached CRT quality. There was a market willing to buy it, there was just no money in continuing development of it.
taltamir
Lifer
- Mar 21, 2004
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Zap
Elite Member
- Oct 13, 1999
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Re-read what I wrote. TWO in RAID0. Lower cost, similar read performance, faster write performance, much more capacity.
But yeah, not for laptops. Actually, SSDs are great for laptops where typically you don't need as much storage and they are not as fragile as HDDs.
Desktops? IMO not ready for prime time.
Are memory manufacturers going to be able to do that profitably in the near term? Most of them are in financial trouble due to crumbling costs and some (Qimonda for one) has even filed bankruptcy.
Without a doubt the current SSD price-structure and recent rate of declines in prices are 100% non-sustainable and are being completely subsidized by the over-stocked Flash markets.
So yeah, I wouldn't take the price-activity of the past 3 months to be indicative of the pace of price declines we can expect to see in the forthcoming quarters.
That's covered in the article as well. It is seen as a move that will stabilize prices, not enable continued waves of losses at the manufacturers so that we consumers can see additional price cuts on our consumer devices.
For sure the general pricing trend is down, I'm just cautioning against the desire to take the slope of that downward trend (especially the recent portion of it) and project/extrapolate that to the future.
We got ahead of ourselves here with the recent price-cuts on SSD's. Our prices should not have been this low until Q4 timeframe if the markets were reducing prices in a sustainable fashion.
As such we really ought to expect a bit of a plateau here for a while as businesses scale back their operations so they stop bleeding cash. That means lowered supply as they try and find a supply/demand point that results in the $/GB being high enough that they can break-even at worse.
No different than the DRAM market really, same players too.
taltamir
Lifer
- Mar 21, 2004
- 13,576
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well, yes. Price drops only occur when newer, better, drives are introduced. Not when the manufacturer cuts costs. Expecting the trend to continue downwards at the same RATE is naive, we could easily end up with a dry spell where no new (good) drives are released, and as such there will be no more price drops.
You may see it that way, but if you call up a place to customize a server and ask for SCSI they will tell you there is only SAS or SATA on new hardware.
99% of everyone thinks and knows scsi as the old drives that need terminators and lots of ribbon.
taltamir
Lifer
- Mar 21, 2004
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its not a matter of thinking of it that way, its what it is CALLED. SAS literally stands for Serial Attached SCSI.
I understand what you are saying, but I have no intention of using either and you are obviously now understanding that I referred to SAS and not to the old SCSI formats.
I understand what you are saying, but I have no intention of using either and you are obviously now understanding that I referred to SAS and not to the old SCSI formats.
Not sure honestly, although I highly doubt the high current prices on SSDs are anything close to actual cost. At some point they'll have to transition from high margin and low volume to low margin and high volume but I think its pretty obvious neither the consumer nor the manufacturer is really happy with the current pricing and adoption rate on SSDs.
taltamir
Lifer
- Mar 21, 2004
- 13,576
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crumbling costs are, first and foremost, a result of supply and demand, demand went down due to economy, supply went way up due to heavy production and competition...
Qimoda went bankrupt, and its competitors will snatch it up for a fraction of its worth. the loss will be of the INVESTORS who owned qimoda...
This should continue with companies going down and being snatched up, as it happens competition goes down and the remaining companies increase their prices, and become more profitable then they were before.
Qimoda went bankrupt, and its competitors will snatch it up for a fraction of its worth. the loss will be of the INVESTORS who owned qimoda...
This should continue with companies going down and being snatched up, as it happens competition goes down and the remaining companies increase their prices, and become more profitable then they were before.
It is slightly absurd to think WD will release a 20K Raptor, or even a 15K Raptor any time soon when enterprise 2.5" drives just hit 15K a generation ago and the top capacity for current generation is 147 GB.
20K is absolutely ridiculous, 15K is slightly more reasonable but we aren't going to see the current 300 GB capacities.
Viper GTS
20K is absolutely ridiculous, 15K is slightly more reasonable but we aren't going to see the current 300 GB capacities.
Viper GTS
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