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New photos from Abu Graib?

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REEE

Junior Member
Mar 14, 2008
10
0
0
I think that some people are forgetting that torture is not only harmful to the tortured, it is harmful to the torturer as well. Would you really want to live with the weight of causing someone's suffering on your consience? Even if you knew you were preventing the deaths of a million people, do you really think that you could forget the screams, the pleas for mercy, the agony that you brought down on someone? I doubt it. Not if you have any values whatsoever.

Personally, I would rather die than torture someone- regardless of their guilt or innocence. And if I did somehow torture someone, I would hope that I be punished for such an atrocity.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1


Youre a fucking baby girl terrorist is what you are. The fact you would make that comment about an American, much less a President, makes you no better than they are. Again, congrats.

Oh and learn to read little girl. I never used the word "tool" or "asshole". Those are your words.
EL OH FRICKING EL

You're such a good little blind "patriot", yes you are! /babytalk

Listen closely. My hatred and unrelenting drive to see him and his cabinet punished is nothing close to terrorism. The only thing close to a terrorist here is you and your ilk for defending that kind of monster in the first place. I mean, what the hell has to be wrong with your brain for you to think a murdering liar deserves anything that resembles respect? I don't think you've gotten this through your nationalist brain yet, but I'll spell it out for you. I put bush, his cabinet, and his supporters on the same "pedestal" (if you can call it that) as I do for white-supremacists, rapists, child molesters, and serial killers.

BTW, you have terrible reading comprehension. I called YOU a tool, and "asshole" is close enough to "ass-hat". Would you like me to fix my post to accurately reflect your previous post to the letter, or are you actually capable of abstract thinking on a level high enough to understand it?

Oh wait, you're crying about people insulting the piece of shit we have as a president, so you've already demonstrated an irrefutable lack of cognitive ability.

You both need a big glass of calm down juice. All these back and forth personal attacks are not OK.

Rainsford
AnandTech Politics and News Moderator
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: Train
Torture is like nuclear weapons. You dont like them, you dont want to use them, but realize that some day you just might have to, so you dont go as far as banning them completely.
Yep, just like banning guns. Outlaw guns, and only outlaws have guns. You'd be stupid to give up a weapon that might save your life one day.
80% of the human beings housed in abu-ghraib by our military were later released without any charges and found to be innocent.

I am guessing abu-ghraib torture like train mentioned IS sort of like our MAD policy... it really did a lot to make things WORSE

Does anyone in America EVER put themselves in the shoes of an innocent Iraqi?

Do we ever wonder how Iraqis think about us for supporting 8 years of Mr. Bush?

^^ I guess that wouldn't matter if you consider all arabs to be guilty of 9/11
I actually feel for the Iraqis, both before we invaded, that they had to live under Saddam, and now that we've wrecked their country and are super paranoid about who is and isnt a terrorist over there.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be in AbuG as an innocent. I think it would suck ass. (stated lightly). Frankly I think it would suck to be innocent and in any prison. Who wouldn't?

I can't help but wonder though if the images coming out of AbuG aren't aim at us, they are aimed at other terrorists, as an opportunity to put the idea out there that US has the nerve to be evil too, and will do evil things to them and their people.

I can't pretend to be intellectual about Military endevours. My experience stops after Command and Conquer. But I don't think we should back down from the "tell us where your terrorist friends are, OR ELSE" attitude. What needs to be done, needs to be done.

This isn't a choice I'd like to make, but if I had to choose between gunning down 10 otherwise innocent devote muslim iraqis and 10 innocent devout christian americans, I'd choose the iraqis.
One organized religion is no different from the other....

Being a nonreligious person. I would gun down neither as I know right from wrong... That's pretty sad statement you made.
Well no shit sherlock i would gun down neither if I had the choice to. Did you notice the words in my statement "this isnt a choice Id like to make, but if HAD to....."

If you had to, what would you do? Of course you would choose the others instead of your own kind (americans) because if you didnt and gunned down your own people, you'd be gunned down by your own people for being a traitor.

Having reread my statement, do you still think its sad?
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,081
187
106
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: Train
Torture is like nuclear weapons. You dont like them, you dont want to use them, but realize that some day you just might have to, so you dont go as far as banning them completely.
Yep, just like banning guns. Outlaw guns, and only outlaws have guns. You'd be stupid to give up a weapon that might save your life one day.
80% of the human beings housed in abu-ghraib by our military were later released without any charges and found to be innocent.

I am guessing abu-ghraib torture like train mentioned IS sort of like our MAD policy... it really did a lot to make things WORSE

Does anyone in America EVER put themselves in the shoes of an innocent Iraqi?

Do we ever wonder how Iraqis think about us for supporting 8 years of Mr. Bush?

^^ I guess that wouldn't matter if you consider all arabs to be guilty of 9/11
I actually feel for the Iraqis, both before we invaded, that they had to live under Saddam, and now that we've wrecked their country and are super paranoid about who is and isnt a terrorist over there.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be in AbuG as an innocent. I think it would suck ass. (stated lightly). Frankly I think it would suck to be innocent and in any prison. Who wouldn't?

I can't help but wonder though if the images coming out of AbuG aren't aim at us, they are aimed at other terrorists, as an opportunity to put the idea out there that US has the nerve to be evil too, and will do evil things to them and their people.

I can't pretend to be intellectual about Military endevours. My experience stops after Command and Conquer. But I don't think we should back down from the "tell us where your terrorist friends are, OR ELSE" attitude. What needs to be done, needs to be done.

This isn't a choice I'd like to make, but if I had to choose between gunning down 10 otherwise innocent devote muslim iraqis and 10 innocent devout christian americans, I'd choose the iraqis.
One organized religion is no different from the other....

Being a nonreligious person. I would gun down neither as I know right from wrong... That's pretty sad statement you made.
Well no shit sherlock i would gun down neither if I had the choice to. Did you notice the words in my statement "this isnt a choice Id like to make, but if HAD to....."

If you had to, what would you do? Of course you would choose the others instead of your own kind (americans) because if you didnt and gunned down your own people, you'd be gunned down by your own people for being a traitor.

Having reread my statement, do you still think its sad?
yes you are sad... There is No excuse for you...

Gunning down Innocent people is not being a traitor it's using a bit of common sense witch obviously you lack greatly...

But hey I know we all have are little fantasy's of just going out killing people. If that's your idea of fun then you are just a sick and sad individual, go seek help while you still can...
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,824
804
126
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: blackangst1


Youre a fucking baby girl terrorist is what you are. The fact you would make that comment about an American, much less a President, makes you no better than they are. Again, congrats.

Oh and learn to read little girl. I never used the word "tool" or "asshole". Those are your words.
EL OH FRICKING EL

You're such a good little blind "patriot", yes you are! /babytalk

Listen closely. My hatred and unrelenting drive to see him and his cabinet punished is nothing close to terrorism. The only thing close to a terrorist here is you and your ilk for defending that kind of monster in the first place. I mean, what the hell has to be wrong with your brain for you to think a murdering liar deserves anything that resembles respect? I don't think you've gotten this through your nationalist brain yet, but I'll spell it out for you. I put bush, his cabinet, and his supporters on the same "pedestal" (if you can call it that) as I do for white-supremacists, rapists, child molesters, and serial killers.

BTW, you have terrible reading comprehension. I called YOU a tool, and "asshole" is close enough to "ass-hat". Would you like me to fix my post to accurately reflect your previous post to the letter, or are you actually capable of abstract thinking on a level high enough to understand it?

Oh wait, you're crying about people insulting the piece of shit we have as a president, so you've already demonstrated an irrefutable lack of cognitive ability.
:)
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: Train
Torture is like nuclear weapons. You dont like them, you dont want to use them, but realize that some day you just might have to, so you dont go as far as banning them completely.
Yep, just like banning guns. Outlaw guns, and only outlaws have guns. You'd be stupid to give up a weapon that might save your life one day.
80% of the human beings housed in abu-ghraib by our military were later released without any charges and found to be innocent.

I am guessing abu-ghraib torture like train mentioned IS sort of like our MAD policy... it really did a lot to make things WORSE

Does anyone in America EVER put themselves in the shoes of an innocent Iraqi?

Do we ever wonder how Iraqis think about us for supporting 8 years of Mr. Bush?

^^ I guess that wouldn't matter if you consider all arabs to be guilty of 9/11
I actually feel for the Iraqis, both before we invaded, that they had to live under Saddam, and now that we've wrecked their country and are super paranoid about who is and isnt a terrorist over there.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be in AbuG as an innocent. I think it would suck ass. (stated lightly). Frankly I think it would suck to be innocent and in any prison. Who wouldn't?

I can't help but wonder though if the images coming out of AbuG aren't aim at us, they are aimed at other terrorists, as an opportunity to put the idea out there that US has the nerve to be evil too, and will do evil things to them and their people.

I can't pretend to be intellectual about Military endevours. My experience stops after Command and Conquer. But I don't think we should back down from the "tell us where your terrorist friends are, OR ELSE" attitude. What needs to be done, needs to be done.

This isn't a choice I'd like to make, but if I had to choose between gunning down 10 otherwise innocent devote muslim iraqis and 10 innocent devout christian americans, I'd choose the iraqis.
One organized religion is no different from the other....

Being a nonreligious person. I would gun down neither as I know right from wrong... That's pretty sad statement you made.
Well no shit sherlock i would gun down neither if I had the choice to. Did you notice the words in my statement "this isnt a choice Id like to make, but if HAD to....."

If you had to, what would you do? Of course you would choose the others instead of your own kind (americans) because if you didnt and gunned down your own people, you'd be gunned down by your own people for being a traitor.

Having reread my statement, do you still think its sad?
yes you are sad... There is No excuse for you...

Gunning down Innocent people is not being a traitor it's using a bit of common sense witch obviously you lack greatly...

But hey I know we all have are little fantasy's of just going out killing people. If that's your idea of fun then you are just a sick and sad individual, go seek help while you still can...

Wow, you completely missed the point of my statement. When did I say that I had a fantasy of gunning down people? When did I say that I thought the idea of gunning down people was fun? WTF?

I'm not sick. I consider myself very healthy. The fact that you so greatly spun my words the way you did into my wanting to gun down innocents, and then flaming me for thinking its fun and that I'm sick and such, just makes me think thats actually what is floating around in your head, you feel guilty about it, and your reaction is to attempt to point that out in other people instead.

Seriously dude, wtf. THe entire point was about torture, in that if the doing so can prevent the death of innocent lives, I would do it to save those lives, not to get some sick, pyschotic enjoyment out of doing the dirty deed to someone. You don't know me, you don't know if I'm old, young, tall, short, smart, stupid, a scholar, a deadbeat, an engineer, a cop, a pastor, or a lawyer. I think you just called yourself out as a troll.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,081
187
106
This isn't a choice I'd like to make, but if I had to choose between gunning down 10 otherwise innocent devote muslim iraqis and 10 innocent devout christian americans, I'd choose the iraqis.


Ummm, back to your original post.... I don't think I missed much... I was in the military... I don't know how old you are, but if I saw another troop gunning down 10 'otherwise innocent devoted muslim of faith' I'd probably put a bullet in the back of his head...The same goes if I saw someone in America and saw a trooper or anyone for that matter gunning down 10 'otherwise innocent devoted christain of faith' I'd do the same... Hence If I didn't gun down 10 innocent people and was called a "traitor" ya know what? I'd rather be called a traitor then having to deal with killing 10 innocent people on my conscious for the rest of my life.

That's just not right... Deal with it...

 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
60
91
Originally posted by: ericlp
This isn't a choice I'd like to make, but if I had to choose between gunning down 10 otherwise innocent devote muslim iraqis and 10 innocent devout christian americans, I'd choose the iraqis.


Ummm, back to your original post.... I don't think I missed much... I was in the military... I don't know how old you are, but if I saw another troop gunning down 10 'otherwise innocent devoted muslim of faith' I'd probably put a bullet in the back of his head...The same goes if I saw someone in America and saw a trooper or anyone for that matter gunning down 10 'otherwise innocent devoted christain of faith' I'd do the same... Hence If I didn't gun down 10 innocent people and was called a "traitor" ya know what? I'd rather be called a traitor then having to deal with killing 10 innocent people on my conscious for the rest of my life.

That's just not right... Deal with it...
You're right. Gunning down people in general isn't right, and I probably could have used a better analogy. Honestly, if I had the choice, I would probably shoot myself if it would prevent either group from getting killed..
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
217
101
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: superstition
Torture doesn't provide useful evidence, and it's completely amoral.
incorrect. do you really think one couldn't do research and find instances when torture didn't lead to good results and saved lives?

Torture, just to torture someone, is sick, but as a tool to get information, is survival.
So, you're supporting torture based on nothing but conjecture? That's weak.

I've heard from experts that one of the reasons torture is banned is because it provides worthless or misleading (and therefore usually not useful) testimony.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: ranmaniac
50 years from we'll probably have some revisionist Disney theme park ride complete with animatronics based on Abu Ghraib.
Dood Disney is run by the gheys of course they will!

Funny thing When Saddam was in power people were not humiliated there they were killed. I'm not gonna look at nay more pics but some of those people there I really don't care if they torture. If they can save an American life I'm down with that.

If it is some yahoo just trying to see if a barrel of a rifle will fit down someones tail pipe I think the other soldiers should beat him down just like that A-hole throwing the cat off the cliff.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,824
804
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: ranmaniac
50 years from we'll probably have some revisionist Disney theme park ride complete with animatronics based on Abu Ghraib.
Dood Disney is run by the gheys of course they will!

Funny thing When Saddam was in power people were not humiliated there they were killed. I'm not gonna look at nay more pics but some of those people there I really don't care if they torture. If they can save an American life I'm down with that.

If it is some yahoo just trying to see if a barrel of a rifle will fit down someones tail pipe I think the other soldiers should beat him down just like that A-hole throwing the cat off the cliff.
Right. Because we have soo much info on his killings :roll:
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: ranmaniac
50 years from we'll probably have some revisionist Disney theme park ride complete with animatronics based on Abu Ghraib.
Dood Disney is run by the gheys of course they will!

Funny thing When Saddam was in power people were not humiliated there they were killed. I'm not gonna look at nay more pics but some of those people there I really don't care if they torture. If they can save an American life I'm down with that.

If it is some yahoo just trying to see if a barrel of a rifle will fit down someones tail pipe I think the other soldiers should beat him down just like that A-hole throwing the cat off the cliff.
You don't deserve to have your life saved, IMO, when you support the torture of others.

You can CAUSE the harm of the US by supporting torture, but you don't understand that.
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
The methods of detention and interrogation, including those of waterboarding, sleep deprivation, cold cells, stress positions, and the like, adopted by the Bush Administration were pioneered by Jacob Yeshov [Stalin's secret police chief] in order to elicit confessions devised as a part of the "scripting" of Stalin's purge trials. Those methods were not, and are not, useful for the purpose of eliciting "facts", only "confessions". Their credibility and use relied on the skill of the script writers, the perfidy of the prosecutors, and the complicity of the courts.

The oft-cited ticking time bomb scenario as justification for state-sponsored torture is flawed. Just as the value of a call options contract generally increases the closer to expiration date, might the motivated terrorist believe it more valuable to resist torture, no matter what, as long as he believes there is a good chance of success, i.e., a low mission risk?

All he has to do is hang in there for a little longer and its mission-accomplished!

It could be that the very act of his torture reveals more about the motivations and fears of his torturers than they might like. After all, torturing is an act of desperation and depravity. Far better for interrogators to reveal little about their motivations in the interest of trying to elicit from their suspect his motivations.

On the other hand, the best time for state sponsored torture is when the suspect has been detained well in advance of the big event. There is a higher risk of mission failure and the value of the mission is lower simply because of the comparatively lengthy duration between capture and detonation. In fact, simply the threat of torture might be enough to break the suspect. Of course, the torturer has to convince his detainee that the value of the mission is low or that the risk is too high and that there is little chance of mission completion. This is information that the torturer likely does not have, otherwise why torture in the first place?

So, from the options valuation model, state-sponsored torture is unlikely to yield the results necessary to stop the ticking time bomb.



 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Must be election year again. Time to bring out this dirty mess, again.
Abu Ghraib is and Always will be one of the main reasons we will never win the "hearts & minds" of the Iraqi people & the ME in general. It will and always will be one of the biggest boils on the ass that is the Iraq war, no matter how often or when it is brought into discussion.

After all, GOP congressman Christopher Shays once declared : "What happened at Abu Ghraib was not torture. Abu Ghraib was just a "sex ring"

Dogs, leather leashes, hand cuffs, naked pyramids...All this accomplished was allowing the Bush Administration & the Republican party to look a whole lot sexier.


 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
217
101
Abu Ghraib is and Always will be one of the main reasons we will never win the "hearts & minds" of the Iraqi people & the ME in general.
"Shock and Awe", making light of bombing a major city, is hardly a way to win people over. Then there's this whole problem of a war waged on the false pretenses of WMD and a connection with 9/11. And, finally, there's the issue of Iraq being an artificial creation of British colonialism... not exactly something that endears the ethnic groups regarding the west.

We could also look at the stats concerning water, food, shelter, civilian death rate, refugee percentage, and the number suffering from post traumatic stress.

Oil doesn't have a heart or mind.
 

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