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New photos from Abu Graib?

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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,183
60
91
Most soldiers do not want to torture people. Often it is the people from Military Intelligence and the CIA teaching them these things. Then the people in charge who were not doing the torturing never get charged for their crimes. However, the soldier is told he has to work in this environment.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
59
91
Originally posted by: Craig234
Until our nation commits itself to a ban on all torture, and enforces it, including pursuing those who have broken the law, it's an open issue.
are you saying you want to ban torture?

If I was going to blow up a building in IRAN, had tons of information about it, and iranians caught me, I WOULD EXPECT them to torture my ass until I spoke.

Just as if I suspected someone of having information that could lead to the prevention of my family's murder, I would waterboard them like a surfer at North Shore. I would also do my best to make damn sure I wasn't doing it to someone who was innocent. Hopefully my judgement at the time would be adequate to make the right call.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,584
345
126
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: Craig234
Until our nation commits itself to a ban on all torture, and enforces it, including pursuing those who have broken the law, it's an open issue.
are you saying you want to ban torture?
Yes.

If I was going to blow up a building in IRAN, had tons of information about it, and iranians caught me, I WOULD EXPECT them to torture my ass until I spoke.

Just as if I suspected someone of having information that could lead to the prevention of my family's murder, I would waterboard them like a surfer at North Shore. I would also do my best to make damn sure I wasn't doing it to someone who was innocent. Hopefully my judgement at the time would be adequate to make the right call.
I'm talking about the government, not private citizens' acts.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,774
37
91
www.bing.com
Torture is like nuclear weapons. You dont like them, you dont want to use them, but realize that some day you just might have to, so you dont go as far as banning them completely.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,536
733
126
Originally posted by: Lt 486
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Pretty miled compared to photos of WTC jumpers after they hit the ground.
Yes, you are right. It was iraqis who attacked us on 9/11.
And you are right. The only residents of AG are Iraqis.

See what one has to do with the other? Yep. Nothing.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,536
733
126
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Genx87
Must be election year again. Time to bring out this dirty mess, again.
Yep.

War not making headlines because it is going "better" - check
Anti-war groups losing traction(worn out their welcome) - check
Democrats having internal race/gender fight in national spotlight - check

Change subject to old news like Abu Graib? - BRILLIANT :roll:
It's amazing that you can be outraged by anti-war protesters (those BASTARDS!), but then complain when someone shows what we're doing to prisoners who haven't been convicted of any crime.

What are you, some kind of dictator misinformation and FUD conduit?

This war will NEVER be "okay". Torture will NEVER be "okay". The administration will NEVER be "okay". Domestic spying will NEVER be "okay".... And so on, and so forth.

Your type has some f-ed up moral priorities. Seriously f-ed up.
"outraged" hardly. :laugh: I'm not sure how you got "outraged" from my post(besides BDS) but whatever...

I also don't see how you get "complain" from my post. I simply responded to the notion that these latest pics are politically timed. Also, no where have I ever stated it was "okay".

Me thinks you need to take your meds... sheesh.
These guys are as sensitive as little girls hehe
Wanting to see a wanna-be despot lying sack of crap get hung makes me a little girl, huh?
Congrats. You have become them :) Youre in good company asshat.
So which one am I, tool? A little girl or an asshole? In this case, I can't be both.
Youre a fucking baby girl terrorist is what you are. The fact you would make that comment about an American, much less a President, makes you no better than they are. Again, congrats.

Oh and learn to read little girl. I never used the word "tool" or "asshole". Those are your words.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,536
733
126
Originally posted by: superstition
Torture doesn't provide useful evidence, and it's completely amoral.
For the most part, youre right. Unfortunately, us armchair war mongers know better than the military and many of their advisers, and will never have a chance to set things straight. Sucks huh?
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
59
91
Originally posted by: superstition
Torture doesn't provide useful evidence, and it's completely amoral.
incorrect. do you really think one couldn't do research and find instances when torture didn't lead to good results and saved lives?

Torture, just to torture someone, is sick, but as a tool to get information, is survival.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
59
91
Originally posted by: Train
Torture is like nuclear weapons. You dont like them, you dont want to use them, but realize that some day you just might have to, so you dont go as far as banning them completely.
Yep, just like banning guns. Outlaw guns, and only outlaws have guns. You'd be stupid to give up a weapon that might save your life one day.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: superstition
Torture doesn't provide useful evidence, and it's completely amoral.
For the most part, youre right. Unfortunately, us armchair war mongers know better than the military and many of their advisers, and will never have a chance to set things straight. Sucks huh?
So, you feel that the military advisers for al-qaeda and others who choose to torture people without due process are doing the most logical thing for their needs?

Was 9/11 just a way for them to torture American citizens for supporting their perceived aggressions against people of the middle east?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,536
733
126
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: superstition
Torture doesn't provide useful evidence, and it's completely amoral.
For the most part, youre right. Unfortunately, us armchair war mongers know better than the military and many of their advisers, and will never have a chance to set things straight. Sucks huh?
So, you feel that the military advisers for al-qaeda and others who choose to torture people without due process are doing the most logical thing for their needs?

Was 9/11 just a way for them to torture American citizens for supporting their perceived aggressions against people of the middle east?
Looks like two yes or no questions there.

No.
No.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: Train
Torture is like nuclear weapons. You dont like them, you dont want to use them, but realize that some day you just might have to, so you dont go as far as banning them completely.
Yep, just like banning guns. Outlaw guns, and only outlaws have guns. You'd be stupid to give up a weapon that might save your life one day.
80% of the human beings housed in abu-ghraib by our military were later released without any charges and found to be innocent.

I am guessing abu-ghraib torture like train mentioned IS sort of like our MAD policy... it really did a lot to make things WORSE

Does anyone in America EVER put themselves in the shoes of an innocent Iraqi?

Do we ever wonder how Iraqis think about us for supporting 8 years of Mr. Bush?

^^ I guess that wouldn't matter if you consider all arabs to be guilty of 9/11
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: superstition
Torture doesn't provide useful evidence, and it's completely amoral.
For the most part, youre right. Unfortunately, us armchair war mongers know better than the military and many of their advisers, and will never have a chance to set things straight. Sucks huh?
So, you feel that the military advisers for al-qaeda and others who choose to torture people without due process are doing the most logical thing for their needs?

Was 9/11 just a way for them to torture American citizens for supporting their perceived aggressions against people of the middle east?
Looks like two yes or no questions there.

No.
No.
Almost.. really close to.. a double standard?

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,536
733
126
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: superstition
Torture doesn't provide useful evidence, and it's completely amoral.
For the most part, youre right. Unfortunately, us armchair war mongers know better than the military and many of their advisers, and will never have a chance to set things straight. Sucks huh?
So, you feel that the military advisers for al-qaeda and others who choose to torture people without due process are doing the most logical thing for their needs?

Was 9/11 just a way for them to torture American citizens for supporting their perceived aggressions against people of the middle east?
Looks like two yes or no questions there.

No.
No.
Almost.. really close to.. a double standard?
I guess if you make assumptions *shrug* Its not black and white, although you would like it to be in order to put words in my mouth. Do I have a double standard if I say I am vehemently against abortion but if I dont think RvW should be overturned?
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,701
59
91
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: Train
Torture is like nuclear weapons. You dont like them, you dont want to use them, but realize that some day you just might have to, so you dont go as far as banning them completely.
Yep, just like banning guns. Outlaw guns, and only outlaws have guns. You'd be stupid to give up a weapon that might save your life one day.
80% of the human beings housed in abu-ghraib by our military were later released without any charges and found to be innocent.

I am guessing abu-ghraib torture like train mentioned IS sort of like our MAD policy... it really did a lot to make things WORSE

Does anyone in America EVER put themselves in the shoes of an innocent Iraqi?

Do we ever wonder how Iraqis think about us for supporting 8 years of Mr. Bush?

^^ I guess that wouldn't matter if you consider all arabs to be guilty of 9/11
I actually feel for the Iraqis, both before we invaded, that they had to live under Saddam, and now that we've wrecked their country and are super paranoid about who is and isnt a terrorist over there.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be in AbuG as an innocent. I think it would suck ass. (stated lightly). Frankly I think it would suck to be innocent and in any prison. Who wouldn't?

I can't help but wonder though if the images coming out of AbuG aren't aim at us, they are aimed at other terrorists, as an opportunity to put the idea out there that US has the nerve to be evil too, and will do evil things to them and their people.

I can't pretend to be intellectual about Military endevours. My experience stops after Command and Conquer. But I don't think we should back down from the "tell us where your terrorist friends are, OR ELSE" attitude. What needs to be done, needs to be done.

This isn't a choice I'd like to make, but if I had to choose between gunning down 10 otherwise innocent devote muslim iraqis and 10 innocent devout christian americans, I'd choose the iraqis.

 

Kerouactivist

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2001
4,655
0
76
More evidence for the hague tribunals....
Hopefully those responsible will get justice....

?This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.?

Plato
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
ATTN. GEN. ASHCROFT: I am not going to reveal discussions -- whether I've had them or not had them with the president. He asked me to deal with him as a matter of confidence. I have not invoked the executive privilege today. I have explained to you why I'm not turning over the documents.

SEN. KENNEDY: Well, what are you invoking then?

ATTN. GEN. ASHCROFT: I have not invoked anything. I have just explained to you why I am not turning over the documents.

SEN. JOE BIDEN, D-Del.: Thank you very much. Well, General, that means you may be in contempt of Congress then. You got to have a reason not to answer our questions, as you know from you sitting up here. There may be a rationale for executive privilege that misses the point, but -- but, you know, you have to have a reason. You are not allowed, under our Constitution, not to answer our questions. And that ain't -- that ain't constitutional.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb...une04/torture_6-8.html
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,079
186
106
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Genx87
Must be election year again. Time to bring out this dirty mess, again.
Yep.

War not making headlines because it is going "better" - check
Anti-war groups losing traction(worn out their welcome) - check
Democrats having internal race/gender fight in national spotlight - check

Change subject to old news like Abu Graib? - BRILLIANT :roll:
Why did we go there again? I forgot....


Priceless.


 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
What the hell is going on in the first picture?
I don't get it.

What is that on the floor covered in red (blood?)
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,079
186
106
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
Originally posted by: Train
Torture is like nuclear weapons. You dont like them, you dont want to use them, but realize that some day you just might have to, so you dont go as far as banning them completely.
Yep, just like banning guns. Outlaw guns, and only outlaws have guns. You'd be stupid to give up a weapon that might save your life one day.
80% of the human beings housed in abu-ghraib by our military were later released without any charges and found to be innocent.

I am guessing abu-ghraib torture like train mentioned IS sort of like our MAD policy... it really did a lot to make things WORSE

Does anyone in America EVER put themselves in the shoes of an innocent Iraqi?

Do we ever wonder how Iraqis think about us for supporting 8 years of Mr. Bush?

^^ I guess that wouldn't matter if you consider all arabs to be guilty of 9/11
I actually feel for the Iraqis, both before we invaded, that they had to live under Saddam, and now that we've wrecked their country and are super paranoid about who is and isnt a terrorist over there.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be in AbuG as an innocent. I think it would suck ass. (stated lightly). Frankly I think it would suck to be innocent and in any prison. Who wouldn't?

I can't help but wonder though if the images coming out of AbuG aren't aim at us, they are aimed at other terrorists, as an opportunity to put the idea out there that US has the nerve to be evil too, and will do evil things to them and their people.

I can't pretend to be intellectual about Military endevours. My experience stops after Command and Conquer. But I don't think we should back down from the "tell us where your terrorist friends are, OR ELSE" attitude. What needs to be done, needs to be done.

This isn't a choice I'd like to make, but if I had to choose between gunning down 10 otherwise innocent devote muslim iraqis and 10 innocent devout christian americans, I'd choose the iraqis.
One organized religion is no different from the other....

Being a nonreligious person. I would gun down neither as I know right from wrong... That's pretty sad statement you made.

 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,079
186
106
Originally posted by: Aimster
What the hell is going on in the first picture?
I don't get it.

What is that on the floor covered in red (blood?)
well, I thought that way too but I think it's just a smear. I'm not going to look at those pics again. The whole thing is pointless I guess the worst part is, I assume that worse acts went on that did not get photo's taken.

Everyone can laugh about this... These are war crimes and puts america in a bad light... A light that I don't want to be associated with.

I believe that we have gone from bad to worse with Bush in office...


If anything can be learned here it is ... don't mix religion with politics clearly we have gone way over the line here and who knows. Maybe the next election we can change it...

Good Luck!
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,056
362
126
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: Aimster
What the hell is going on in the first picture?
I don't get it.

What is that on the floor covered in red (blood?)
well, I thought that way too but I think it's just a smear. I'm not going to look at those pics again. The whole thing is pointless I guess the worst part is, I assume that worse acts went on that did not get photo's taken.

Everyone can laugh about this... These are war crimes and puts america in a bad light... A light that I don't want to be associated with.

I believe that we have gone from bad to worse with Bush in office...


If anything can be learned here it is ... don't mix religion with politics clearly we have gone way over the line here and who knows. Maybe the next election we can change it...

Good Luck!
:confused:

What does that have to do with Iraq and Abu Graib?

 

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