New McCain Ad Blames Obama For High Gas Prices.

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: eskimospy



Now you're asking someone to prove a negative in order to bolster your argument. This is not a good idea.

"Bush lifting the band had nothing to do with the recent price drop."

He sounded very confident with what he said, perhaps he knows something the rest of us don't.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: eskimospy



Now you're asking someone to prove a negative in order to bolster your argument. This is not a good idea.

"Bush lifting the band had nothing to do with the recent price drop."

He sounded very confident with what he said, perhaps he knows something the rest of us don't.

The basic rules for what you consider true or not is evidence that fits into a plausible causal mechanism. The idea that Bush's announcement that changed nothing is behind recent oil price drops faces this standard for truth. Until shown some evidence (how about some experts analyzing things and saying this?), it is only reasonable that a rational person would consider it false. Saying "Oil dropped in price the same day Bush said something so he was responsible, prove me wrong" doesn't fly.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom
So your against the speculators.

"You're" not "your"

But yes, I am against them.

It's ironic, since I work in i-banking. But I also recognize the balance between having a form of free markets, but also not allowing those markets to be abused.

I don't doubt that has some affect.

LOL, some?

What do you think has driven oil to double in the last year, and go up 50% in the last 8 months? Was it some magical increase in demand that isn't actually there, or some magical disappearance of supply that hasn't happened (supply has actually increased in the face of falling demand)?

No, it was the falling dollar. That's it! The dollar has declined 35% in the last 7 years while oil went up 600%+.

In reality, it was "oil men" sucking off other "oil men", allowing them to arbitrage the globe through the commodities market. Meanwhile, we were promised cheap oil out of Iraq, by "oil men", but all we really got was 1TR+ in additional debt, thousands of troops killed, thousands of Iraqis killed, and the depreciation of our currency.

Conservative "oil men" have fucked us in the last decade.

 

[Wheezer]

perhaps i missed something, but the ad never says Obama himself is responsible...it says "some in Washington" then it flashes to Obama....now if he did indeed vote against opening up drilling opportunities here in the US then he does fall under the category's of "some in Washington" does he not?

So then if, while he was in Washington he did vote against drilling, and he is the political opponent, then what is wrong with using his image and likeness in a a political ad?

I guess that just makes too much sense, and is not much of a panty binder as compared to the title of the article and the title of this thread.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: lupi

Hey Mr. Strawman. The speculators won't be consuming the oil they're buying for an even longer period, yet the prices have gone up. So please continue your wacko leftist diatribes, hugging your trees, and continuing to bring nothing to the table.

Loopy, loopy lupi -- Looks like the Feds are taking a closer look at some of your dreaded speculators, but even without them, we STILL wouldn't be seeing any oil for a decade, and there STILL isn't enough oil on American soil or ocean borders to have much influence on world prices so you're still blowing smoke out of your ass. :roll:

Traders manipulated oil prices - U.S.

Regulators claim firm attempted to 'bang the close' by amassing large positions just before markets closed.

By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: July 24, 2008: 1:16 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The government charged an oil trading firm Thursday with manipulating oil prices in the first complaint to be announced since the regulators began a new investigation into wrongdoings in the energy markets.

The Commodity Futures Trading Commission accused Optiver Holding, two of its subsidiaries and three employees with manipulation and attempted manipulation of crude oil, heating oil and gasoline futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

"Optiver traders amassed large trading positions, then conducted trades in such a way to bully and hammer the markets," CFTC Acting Chairman Walt Lukken said at a press conference. "These charges go to the heart of the CFTC's core mission of detecting and rooting out illegal manipulation of the markets."

In May, under the backdrop of record oil prices and calls from legislators to crack down on speculative oil trading and market manipulation, the CFTC announced a wide-ranging probe into oil price manipulation. The agency says it has dozens of investigations ongoing.

The complaint filed Thursday names Bastiaan van Kempen, chief executive; Christopher Dowson, a head trader; and Randal Meijer, head of trading at an Optiver subsidiary.

The CFTC said the firm attempted to "bang the close" by amassing large positions just before markets closed - forcing prices up - then selling them quickly to drive prices down and pocketing the difference.

The alleged manipulation was attempted 19 times on 11 days in March 2007, the agency said. In at least five of those 19 times, traders succeeded in driving prices higher twice and lower three times, according to the CFTC.

Calls to Optiver seeking comment were not answered, and an email was not immediately returned.

CFTC stressed that the price changes were small and the manipulation was isolated, and that the investigation has nothing to do with the recent heat the agency has taken on Capitol Hill over rising oil prices.
Traders in the spotlight

CFTC has repeatedly said that speculators are not to blame for rising oil prices, and any cases of price manipulation - such as the one brought Thursday - have only a small, if any, effect on oil prices.

The CFTC is the government's main regulator of commodity markets. Its officials have been hauled before Congress and asked repeatedly whether manipulation or excessive speculation is playing a role in record oil prices.

Repeatedly, CFTC experts have said they have found no evidence that speculators - investors who do not ultimately use crude oil - are to blame for the rising prices. They say trading information shows no correlation between investment activity and price swings.

Others, such as the International Energy Agency, have also said speculators are not to blame. They've pointed to other non-traded commodities that have risen in price even faster than oil, and to the fact that there is no evidence of a bubble, such as excess oil sitting around in storage.

Still, the correlation of a four-fold increase of investment money into oil futures and a four-fold increase in oil prices since 2004 has not gone unnoticed. Many lawmakers, consumer rights advocates and even some oil industry analysts say speculation is at least partly to blame.

Against that backdrop, the CFTC has been ordered to investigate the matter more thoroughly and dozens of investigations are underway. The agency may soon be given a bigger staff and wider powers under bills being debated in Congress.

Over the years, the CFTC has found isolated incidents of price manipulation - when an oil producer controls products to influence prices - or other cases of wrongdoing. Since 2002, the agency has charged 66 defendants with energy market violations.

In a recent case, BP settled a suit that alleged the company tried to corner the propane market to inflate prices in 2003 and 2004. BP agreed to pay a $303 million settlement.

But overall, most experts say the incidents are so scattered, and the energy market so large, that it's unlikely a single trader or group of traders can have substantial sway over prices.

To address the rest of your worthless post:

1. I consider it a compliment when a mindless, ranting neocon putz like you calls me whacko.

2. Leftist -- By your standards, yep, and proud of it. It beats the hell out of schmucks like you who support the traitors who, as of 7/17/08 6:48 pm EDT, are directly responsible for the deaths of 4,124 American troops and tens of thousands more wounded in their war of lies.

3. Tree hugger -- Thanks for another compliment. :thumbsup: I know that miniscule grouping of defective ganglia in your skull is incapable of comprehending the problems facing humanity, but if you don't go with it, you WILL run out of habitable planet, and you'll have only yourself and other ecological ludites to blame. :shocked:

Call me whatever you want. If it puts me on the opposite side from you, I can be sure it's the right place to be. :sun:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: lupi

Hey Mr. Strawman. The speculators won't be consuming the oil they're buying for an even longer period, yet the prices have gone up. So please continue your wacko leftist diatribes, hugging your trees, and continuing to bring nothing to the table.

Loopy, loopy lupi -- Looks like the Feds are taking a closer look at some of your dreaded speculators, but even without them, we STILL wouldn't be seeing any oil for a decade, and there STILL isn't enough oil on American soil or ocean borders to have much influence on world prices so you're still blowing smoke out of your ass. :roll:

Traders manipulated oil prices - U.S.

Regulators claim firm attempted to 'bang the close' by amassing large positions just before markets closed.

By Steve Hargreaves, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: July 24, 2008: 1:16 PM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The government charged an oil trading firm Thursday with manipulating oil prices in the first complaint to be announced since the regulators began a new investigation into wrongdoings in the energy markets.

The Commodity Futures Trading Commission accused Optiver Holding, two of its subsidiaries and three employees with manipulation and attempted manipulation of crude oil, heating oil and gasoline futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

"Optiver traders amassed large trading positions, then conducted trades in such a way to bully and hammer the markets," CFTC Acting Chairman Walt Lukken said at a press conference. "These charges go to the heart of the CFTC's core mission of detecting and rooting out illegal manipulation of the markets."

In May, under the backdrop of record oil prices and calls from legislators to crack down on speculative oil trading and market manipulation, the CFTC announced a wide-ranging probe into oil price manipulation. The agency says it has dozens of investigations ongoing.

The complaint filed Thursday names Bastiaan van Kempen, chief executive; Christopher Dowson, a head trader; and Randal Meijer, head of trading at an Optiver subsidiary.

The CFTC said the firm attempted to "bang the close" by amassing large positions just before markets closed - forcing prices up - then selling them quickly to drive prices down and pocketing the difference.

The alleged manipulation was attempted 19 times on 11 days in March 2007, the agency said. In at least five of those 19 times, traders succeeded in driving prices higher twice and lower three times, according to the CFTC.

Calls to Optiver seeking comment were not answered, and an email was not immediately returned.

CFTC stressed that the price changes were small and the manipulation was isolated, and that the investigation has nothing to do with the recent heat the agency has taken on Capitol Hill over rising oil prices.
Traders in the spotlight

CFTC has repeatedly said that speculators are not to blame for rising oil prices, and any cases of price manipulation - such as the one brought Thursday - have only a small, if any, effect on oil prices.

The CFTC is the government's main regulator of commodity markets. Its officials have been hauled before Congress and asked repeatedly whether manipulation or excessive speculation is playing a role in record oil prices.

Repeatedly, CFTC experts have said they have found no evidence that speculators - investors who do not ultimately use crude oil - are to blame for the rising prices. They say trading information shows no correlation between investment activity and price swings.

Others, such as the International Energy Agency, have also said speculators are not to blame. They've pointed to other non-traded commodities that have risen in price even faster than oil, and to the fact that there is no evidence of a bubble, such as excess oil sitting around in storage.

Still, the correlation of a four-fold increase of investment money into oil futures and a four-fold increase in oil prices since 2004 has not gone unnoticed. Many lawmakers, consumer rights advocates and even some oil industry analysts say speculation is at least partly to blame.

Against that backdrop, the CFTC has been ordered to investigate the matter more thoroughly and dozens of investigations are underway. The agency may soon be given a bigger staff and wider powers under bills being debated in Congress.

Over the years, the CFTC has found isolated incidents of price manipulation - when an oil producer controls products to influence prices - or other cases of wrongdoing. Since 2002, the agency has charged 66 defendants with energy market violations.

In a recent case, BP settled a suit that alleged the company tried to corner the propane market to inflate prices in 2003 and 2004. BP agreed to pay a $303 million settlement.

But overall, most experts say the incidents are so scattered, and the energy market so large, that it's unlikely a single trader or group of traders can have substantial sway over prices.

To address the rest of your worthless post:

1. I consider it a compliment when a mindless, ranting neocon putz like you calls me whacko.

2. Leftist -- By your standards, yep, and proud of it. It beats the hell out of schmucks like you who support the traitors who, as of 7/17/08 6:48 pm EDT, are directly responsible for the deaths of 4,124 American troops and tens of thousands more wounded in their war of lies.

3. Tree hugger -- Thanks for another compliment. :thumbsup: I know that miniscule grouping of defective ganglia in your skull is incapable of comprehending the problems facing humanity, but if you don't go with it, you WILL run out of habitable planet, and you'll only have only yourself and other ecological ludites to blame. :shocked:

Call me whatever you want. If it puts me on the opposite side from you, I can be sure it's the right place to be. :sun:

Why did it take so long for this CFTC to get around to doing their job?????????????????

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom
So your against the speculators.

"You're" not "your"

But yes, I am against them.

It's ironic, since I work in i-banking. But I also recognize the balance between having a form of free markets, but also not allowing those markets to be abused.

I don't doubt that has some affect.

LOL, some?

What do you think has driven oil to double in the last year, and go up 50% in the last 8 months? Was it some magical increase in demand that isn't actually there, or some magical disappearance of supply that hasn't happened (supply has actually increased in the face of falling demand)?

No, it was the falling dollar. That's it! The dollar has declined 35% in the last 7 years while oil went up 600%+.

In reality, it was "oil men" sucking off other "oil men", allowing them to arbitrage the globe through the commodities market. Meanwhile, we were promised cheap oil out of Iraq, by "oil men", but all we really got was 1TR+ in additional debt, thousands of troops killed, thousands of Iraqis killed, and the depreciation of our currency.

Conservative "oil men" have fucked us in the last decade.

Hit the nail on the head here. :thumbsup:

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom
So your against the speculators.

"You're" not "your"

But yes, I am against them.

It's ironic, since I work in i-banking. But I also recognize the balance between having a form of free markets, but also not allowing those markets to be abused.

I don't doubt that has some affect.

LOL, some?

What do you think has driven oil to double in the last year, and go up 50% in the last 8 months? Was it some magical increase in demand that isn't actually there, or some magical disappearance of supply that hasn't happened (supply has actually increased in the face of falling demand)?

No, it was the falling dollar. That's it! The dollar has declined 35% in the last 7 years while oil went up 600%+.

In reality, it was "oil men" sucking off other "oil men", allowing them to arbitrage the globe through the commodities market. Meanwhile, we were promised cheap oil out of Iraq, by "oil men", but all we really got was 1TR+ in additional debt, thousands of troops killed, thousands of Iraqis killed, and the depreciation of our currency.

Conservative "oil men" have fucked us in the last decade.

You forgot demand.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom
So your against the speculators.

"You're" not "your"

But yes, I am against them.

It's ironic, since I work in i-banking. But I also recognize the balance between having a form of free markets, but also not allowing those markets to be abused.

I don't doubt that has some affect.

LOL, some?

What do you think has driven oil to double in the last year, and go up 50% in the last 8 months? :laugh:Was it some magical increase in demand that isn't actually there, or some magical disappearance of supply that hasn't happened (supply has actually increased in the face of falling demand)?:laugh:No, it was the falling dollar. That's it! The dollar has declined 35% in the last 7 years while oil went up 600%+.

In reality, it was "oil men" sucking off other "oil men", allowing them to arbitrage the globe through the commodities market. Meanwhile, we were promised cheap oil out of Iraq, by "oil men", but all we really got was 1TR+ in additional debt, thousands of troops killed, thousands of Iraqis killed, and the depreciation of our currency.

Conservative "oil men" have fucked us in the last decade.

You forgot demand.

<Samuel L. Jackson>English mofo, do you read it?</Samuel L. Jackson>

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: eskimospy



Now you're asking someone to prove a negative in order to bolster your argument. This is not a good idea.

"Bush lifting the band had nothing to do with the recent price drop."

He sounded very confident with what he said, perhaps he knows something the rest of us don't.

The basic rules for what you consider true or not is evidence that fits into a plausible causal mechanism. The idea that Bush's announcement that changed nothing is behind recent oil price drops faces this standard for truth. Until shown some evidence (how about some experts analyzing things and saying this?), it is only reasonable that a rational person would consider it false. Saying "Oil dropped in price the same day Bush said something so he was responsible, prove me wrong" doesn't fly.

Here is my expert testimony, he was an authority a couple of days ago!

By the term "help us" I'm sure that means lower the price of oil.

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom
So your against the speculators.

"You're" not "your"

But yes, I am against them.

It's ironic, since I work in i-banking. But I also recognize the balance between having a form of free markets, but also not allowing those markets to be abused.

I don't doubt that has some affect.

LOL, some?

What do you think has driven oil to double in the last year, and go up 50% in the last 8 months? :laugh:Was it some magical increase in demand that isn't actually there, or some magical disappearance of supply that hasn't happened (supply has actually increased in the face of falling demand)?:laugh:No, it was the falling dollar. That's it! The dollar has declined 35% in the last 7 years while oil went up 600%+.

In reality, it was "oil men" sucking off other "oil men", allowing them to arbitrage the globe through the commodities market. Meanwhile, we were promised cheap oil out of Iraq, by "oil men", but all we really got was 1TR+ in additional debt, thousands of troops killed, thousands of Iraqis killed, and the depreciation of our currency.

Conservative "oil men" have fucked us in the last decade.

You forgot demand.

<Samuel L. Jackson>English mofo, do you read it?</Samuel L. Jackson>

Do I need to roll out expert testimony again?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom
So your against the speculators.

"You're" not "your"

But yes, I am against them.

It's ironic, since I work in i-banking. But I also recognize the balance between having a form of free markets, but also not allowing those markets to be abused.

I don't doubt that has some affect.

LOL, some?

What do you think has driven oil to double in the last year, and go up 50% in the last 8 months? :laugh:Was it some magical increase in demand that isn't actually there, or some magical disappearance of supply that hasn't happened (supply has actually increased in the face of falling demand)?:laugh:No, it was the falling dollar. That's it! The dollar has declined 35% in the last 7 years while oil went up 600%+.

In reality, it was "oil men" sucking off other "oil men", allowing them to arbitrage the globe through the commodities market. Meanwhile, we were promised cheap oil out of Iraq, by "oil men", but all we really got was 1TR+ in additional debt, thousands of troops killed, thousands of Iraqis killed, and the depreciation of our currency.

Conservative "oil men" have fucked us in the last decade.

You forgot demand.

<Samuel L. Jackson>English mofo, do you read it?</Samuel L. Jackson>

Do I need to roll out expert testimony again?

I always love this...

If you have an "expert" who you use to refute everything, saying they are infallable because they are an "expert", then why are you even debating me? I am an "expert" in finance, I have an MBA and my CFA charter and work in i-banking.

Who are you to doubt me? That is, if I use your silly premise.

 

[Budmantom]

Here is my expert testimony, he was an authority a couple of days ago!

By the term "help us" I'm sure that means lower the price of oil

 

[Budmantom]

BTW you never told me what type of conservative you were.

So I take it you want to deregulate speculators?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Here is my expert testimony, he was an authority a couple of days ago!

By the term "help us" I'm sure that means lower the price of oil

Can't watch youtube at work, got cliffs?

 

[Budmantom]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Here is my expert testimony, he was an authority a couple of days ago!

By the term "help us" I'm sure that means lower the price of oil

Can't watch youtube at work, got cliffs?

Sure, it's T Boone Pickens saying that we should drill everywhere(in the US), and it will help the US. (please see the original post)

I'm interpreting that to mean that it will increase supply, lower the price and keep a bit more money at home.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
BTW you never told me what type of conservative you were.

So I take it you want to deregulate speculators?

Deregulate? I want to crush speculators with a combination of regulation and monetary disincentivizers.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Budmantom

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Budmantom
Here is my expert testimony, he was an authority a couple of days ago!

By the term "help us" I'm sure that means lower the price of oil

Can't watch youtube at work, got cliffs?

Sure, it's T Boone Pickens saying that we should drill everywhere(in the US), and it will help the US. (please see the original post)

I'm interpreting that to mean that it will increase supply, lower the price and keep a bit more money at home.

But that still has nothing to do with the current price.