New Jersey pastor bans Facebook for employees. Says it makes it too easy to cheat.

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,723
13,503
146
Here we have the same mentality from the religious right, that the left has about guns and other potentially dangerous or unsafe things.

Both sides ignore personal responsibility, and instead choose to ban a thing because it makes bad behavior "easier."

Often, in 2nd amendment debates, a lefty will rant about how guns make murder too easy, and for that reason alone they should be banned (or limited until virtually banned). But we see this mentality from both sides here.

The difference, of course, is that the authoritarian left has been far more successful on local and national levels at getting their restrictive agenda passed.

But no matter, the religious right needs to see that they have the very same problem.

Now, before someone jumps on me, yes, I still support the right of an employer to have requirements for employment. The employee/employer rights debate is not what this is about. It's the ideology behind the restriction he made, and how it applies to both sides.

For Houses of Worship, the Two Faces of Facebook

November 19, 2010 - 11:24 AM | by: Lauren Green

The New Jersey pastor who decreed Facebook forbidden fruit for his leadership staff may be going against a rising tide of biblical proportions.

So say many church pastors and officials who see social networking sites as one of the best ways to engage and build a religious community.

Danielle Hartland, communications director of Grace Church in Erie, Pa., says Facebook itself is not the problem, because it's morally neutral. "The thing is, Facebook is neither evil or good; it just exists," she says. "What you do with it determines what it becomes."

What it became to the Rev. Cedric Miller of Living Word Christian Fellowship Church in Neptune, N.J., prompted him to order about 50 married officials at his church to delete their accounts with social networking sites or resign from their positions. Miller said some 20 couples had run into marital troubles because their spouses connected with or re-ignited a relationship with an ex-flame.

But it's hard to demonize a technology that has become a major force for keeping the faithful connected to a church's core beliefs.

Hartland says her father fell away from the Catholic church at age 18, but came back to his faith through Grace Church because of how pastors were interacting on Facebook. "He knew lots of people before he ever walked through the door of the church," she said.

Grace Church is not alone in its pursuit of hi-tech ways to bring parishioners into the pews … even if they're only virtual pews.

Woodlands Church in Woodlands, Texas, boasts that it is on the cutting edge of technology. Pastor Kerry Shook gets direct feedback from his listeners during his sermons. "We even have a Twitter service where people can twitter questions to me while I preach, and it helps me connect with the congregations," he said.

Shook says he understands and agrees with Miller's concerns, but he says his church "has chosen a different route." But the church does promote a weekly "Facebook fast," he says, so that "it doesn't become a detriment to building strong relationships."

Pastor Frank Chiapperino of Hope Summit Christian Church in Rochester, Minn., is a big cheerleader for churches using Facebook, and he encourages his staff to use it as well. His blog entry, 10 Reasons Your Church Should Be on Facebook, brought in calls from other curious pastors.

"If they're not using it, they're thinking about it," he says of his colleagues.

As far as the potential for evil, Chiapperino says, "I think a lot of good comes out of Facebook, than I have seen problems." He said it provided a good way for his congregants to get to know him and his family when he came to the church. "It's very quick and casual," he said.

He believes the "old guard" may be wary of the new tools, but they need to see the light.

According to a recent Nielsen survey, Americans spend nearly a quarter of their time (22.7 percent) on social media sites, a 43 percent increase from the year before.

Churches, synagogues and mosques have learned that if they're going to reach their congregants, cyberspace is where they'll find them. At church social networking sites the faithful can get updated information on weekly sermons, church activities, group meetings ... even counseling.

People are more inclined to spill their hearts over a pressing personal issue in the anonymity of an online chat, Hartland says. Eventually, she says, a pastor then will try to convince the person to come in for some face time.

She also says that singling out Facebook as the root of potential adulterous affairs is giving the site too much power. Facebook only exposes a deeper issue within marriages.

Chiapperino notes that Jesus himself raised the issue of the fine line that people walk when they use things that have great good, for evil.

"Jesus taught about money, saying 'the love of money is the root of all evil.' Money is not immoral, but any morally neutral tool can be used for good or evil," he said.

Adultery, like many bad behaviors, is a sin of opportunity, and social networking websites create 24 hours of opportunity. But the real problem lies within the marriages themselves, which many times are built on unreal expectations, says marriage counselor Gary Chapman.

Chapman, a trained anthropologist and author of the best-selling book "The Five Love Languages," and the just released "Things I Wish I'd known Before I got Married," says in his new book that "Being in love is an emotional and obsessive experience. However emotions change and obsessions fade."

Couples who based their marriages on the in-love experience, which typically lasts about two to three years, become disillusioned when the true work and challenges of marriage set in, Chapman says. Many may even believe they married the wrong person.

Social networking sites offer opportunities to seek out new and exciting relationships, to boldly go where no married person should venture.

But Chiapperino says Facebook is not what leads to an affair; it's what's in the heart of the individual.

"And that," he says, "is what the church is here for."

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/11/19/for-houses-of-worship-the-two-faces-of-facebook/
 
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classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
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He's not lying. There is nothing wrong with him wanting his leadership to avoid as many pitfalls as they can. On one hand if one of his leaders gets involved in a relationship because of social network sites, the whole church would be condemned. On the other hand the church gets condemned for being more demanding of the leaders. Damn if you do, damned if you don't. Social networking sites are one of the leading causes of infidelity. Now from my perspective I don't really see a problem with it, but I understand where this pastor is coming from.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,745
1,342
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He's not lying. There is nothing wrong with him wanting his leadership to avoid as many pitfalls as they can. On one hand if one of his leaders gets involved in a relationship because of social network sites, the whole church would be condemned. On the other hand the church gets condemned for being more demanding of the leaders. Damn if you do, damned if you don't. Social networking sites are one of the leading causes of infidelity. Now from my perspective I don't really see a problem with it, but I understand where this pastor is coming from.

so once again, personal accountability for one's actions are thrown out the window and the blame is placed elsewhere...got it...
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,723
13,503
146
so once again, personal accountability for one's actions are thrown out the window and the blame is placed elsewhere...got it...

Exactly.

It is blaming a THING for the actions and intent of a person. It's illogical at it's root. But then, authoritarianism always is.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
so once again, personal accountability for one's actions are thrown out the window and the blame is placed elsewhere...got it...

Demanding those to avoid a potential pitfull is a pretty high standard for personal accountability. I don't agree with it, but dude wants a pretty high standard.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,745
1,342
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Demanding those to avoid a potential pitfull is a pretty high standard for personal accountability. I don't agree with it, but dude wants a pretty high standard.

Maybe this issue is rooted in the morality (or lack thereof) of the congregation? i would be willing to bet that this infidelity would have occurred if they used facebook or not...
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
What it became to the Rev. Cedric Miller of Living Word Christian Fellowship Church in Neptune, N.J., prompted him to order about 50 married officials at his church to delete their accounts with social networking sites or resign from their positions. Miller said some 20 couples had run into marital troubles because their spouses connected with or re-ignited a relationship with an ex-flame.

Is this 20 people in that the same group of 50? If so, that's a damn high percentage.

If the 20 were just members of the congregation and unrelated to the 50 employees/church officials I don't think he should have banned it. OTOH, he may be demanding that they be setting a good example, if so that's understandable.

I'm also not too sure that this isn't more like banning alcohol for your AA members.

In both cases (church and AA) people voluntarily and willfully submit themselves to their 'counsler', unlike attempting to pass laws that others must obey.

I think the term 'pastor' is relevent here too, as regards personal repsonsibility. The pastor who tends a flock of sheep etc is supposed to lead them away from danger. They don't just watch a sheep amble over to frolick with a pack of wolves. Then say 'stupid sheep" gotten eaten for a failure of personal responsibility. I suppose this pastor is likely trying to tend to his flock similarly and help them stay out of trouble.

20 people there have cheated on there spouse? Looks like the church to belong to if you're trying to hook up.

Fern
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Exactly.

It is blaming a THING for the actions and intent of a person. It's illogical at it's root. But then, authoritarianism always is.
Hey, what's the point of having power if you don't play with it?

If it's 20 couples out of 50 then he doesn't have a church, he has a swingers' club with a cross.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,303
15
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Social networking sites are one of the leading causes of infidelity.

No, they are not.

Social networking sites certainly make it easier, but the leading cause of infidelity is a spouse choosing to have sex outside of the marriage.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Here we have the same mentality from the religious right, that the left has about guns and other potentially dangerous or unsafe things.

Really? It's the same mentality?

Get back to me when "the religious right" begins using the authority of government to ban facebook.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
81
I think Facebook is garbage, but not for the same reasons the pastor says so. I think if someone is going to hook up with someone else, it will happen no matter if they access Facebook or not.

As Jesus said,
What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'"

Banning Facebook is not dealing with the root of the problem. It is a superficial method and not very wise. Laws do not change the heart.

All that said, I don't see why the OP cares so much about this...? This is not a government issue, it is a private institution.
 

KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,561
14
81
Did some of you even read the article? It seems to state that many of his followers and other people of religous mindset see social networking sites as neutral -neither good or bad- as they should and that it all depends on how you use it. But of course this is ATOT, where any chance to bash christianity is taken...
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
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A person who wants to avoid gambling they can't afford has no difference if they spend hours a night hanging out in a casino or avoiding casinos.

A person who wants to quit drinking has no difference if they tend a bar every night or avoid bars.

A man who wants to avoid cheating on his has no difference spending his nights in a situation where women will make him offers frequently than avoiding that.

Just ask our right-wing ideologues, they can tell you, it makes no difference. All that matters is the guy who is in the bar all night deciding not to drink.

If a guy wants to eat healthier and cut out ice cream, why not work in an ice cream parlor with free scoops, and just not eat any?

And if he does, well, screw him, Darwin award, lol, his fault.

That's not to endorse this person's rule on social networking, or to say 'it's not their fault at all' if they do wrong.

It's to point out the ridiculous error of these right-wing ideologues who spout bad advice on the topic, instead of a more accurate, practical, moral approach.

There's nothing wrong with people weighing the tradeoffs between the value of a thing like social networking versus the downside and temptation.

They - in this case - aren't forcing their view on you (you're the one more forcing your view on them), they aren't banning social networking for others.

Now, talk gay marriage, and we're on a very different situation where they are hurting others for their own discriminatory views.

There is a political element to these things - the more people do something, they more they are going to not ban others from doing it. This is why early on when 'everyone smoked', anti-smoking laws were very limited - don't tell smokers what to do. When smoking decreased, the political support for stronger measures increased.

Whatever you think about the rights of people to tell others not to smoke pot, the politics if 1% smoke pot ot 50% smoke pot will be very different, because neither side is likely to give as much weight to some theoretical issue of others' rights as they are to what they relate to personally.

For that matter, it's a reason black rights took so long to get recognized, as only about 15% of the population - and far less than that of elected officials.

Here, while our large majority of social networking supporters aren't going to 'force' people to use it, they are more likely to attack people who choose not to.

'Respect for legitimate differences between people' is a nice idea, but doesn't happen as easily as we might like to pretend.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Did some of you even read the article? It seems to state that many of his followers and other people of religous mindset see social networking sites as neutral -neither good or bad- as they should and that it all depends on how you use it. But of course this is ATOT, where any chance to bash christianity is taken...

And Christianity should be any different than Islam? What's good for the Goose is good for the Camel
 

dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,345
2,703
136
Demanding those to avoid a potential pitfull is a pretty high standard for personal accountability. I don't agree with it, but dude wants a pretty high standard.

If someone wants to cheat, not using facebook isn't going to stop it. plus there are sites just for the purpose of finding a sex mate. adult friend finder is one. Chances are this pastor is going to drive his most valueable people away with these kind of rules.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
If someoen has such loose morals that they are going to cheat they will find a way/excuse to do it without facebook.

its not a cause for a cheater. its a excuse one gives.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
A person who wants to avoid gambling they can't afford has no difference if they spend hours a night hanging out in a casino or avoiding casinos.

A person who wants to quit drinking has no difference if they tend a bar every night or avoid bars.

A man who wants to avoid cheating on his has no difference spending his nights in a situation where women will make him offers frequently than avoiding that.

Just ask our right-wing ideologues, they can tell you, it makes no difference. All that matters is the guy who is in the bar all night deciding not to drink.

If a guy wants to eat healthier and cut out ice cream, why not work in an ice cream parlor with free scoops, and just not eat any?

And if he does, well, screw him, Darwin award, lol, his fault.

That's not to endorse this person's rule on social networking, or to say 'it's not their fault at all' if they do wrong.

It's to point out the ridiculous error of these right-wing ideologues who spout bad advice on the topic, instead of a more accurate, practical, moral approach.

There's nothing wrong with people weighing the tradeoffs between the value of a thing like social networking versus the downside and temptation.

They - in this case - aren't forcing their view on you (you're the one more forcing your view on them), they aren't banning social networking for others.

Now, talk gay marriage, and we're on a very different situation where they are hurting others for their own discriminatory views.

There is a political element to these things - the more people do something, they more they are going to not ban others from doing it. This is why early on when 'everyone smoked', anti-smoking laws were very limited - don't tell smokers what to do. When smoking decreased, the political support for stronger measures increased.

Whatever you think about the rights of people to tell others not to smoke pot, the politics if 1% smoke pot ot 50% smoke pot will be very different, because neither side is likely to give as much weight to some theoretical issue of others' rights as they are to what they relate to personally.

For that matter, it's a reason black rights took so long to get recognized, as only about 15% of the population - and far less than that of elected officials.

Here, while our large majority of social networking supporters aren't going to 'force' people to use it, they are more likely to attack people who choose not to.

'Respect for legitimate differences between people' is a nice idea, but doesn't happen as easily as we might like to pretend.
While it is better to avoid temptation than to simply overcome it, banning a behavior outright isn't advice - it's tyranny. If we live in a nation where people are nominally free to behave as they please (as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others), then people must live with the consequences of their actions. If, on the other hand, we live in a fascist dictatorship where every behavior is either allowed or not, then no one is responsible for their actions - they're doing what they're told they have to do.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
While it is better to avoid temptation than to simply overcome it, banning a behavior outright isn't advice - it's tyranny. If we live in a nation where people are nominally free to behave as they please (as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others), then people must live with the consequences of their actions. If, on the other hand, we live in a fascist dictatorship where every behavior is either allowed or not, then no one is responsible for their actions - they're doing what they're told they have to do.

We're talking about a voluntary private religious group, not the law here.

Having to wear a seat belt in a car is not tyranny.