New House question

huberm

Golden Member
Dec 17, 2004
1,105
1
0
So I just put an offer in on a house. When I checked the utility bills there was one month in the winter when the electric bill was about $600. When I asked the seller what that was about, he said the realtor had left the heat on 80 degrees all month without telling anyone. All other months the heat was off.

As part of the agreement, he has agreed to pay $2k to either help pay towards a heat pump or more insulation. As of right now the home has a brand new electric furnace and new windows. Where do you think the money would be better spent, going towards a heat pump or beefing up the insulation?
 

sjwaste

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2000
8,757
12
81
Good question. I don't have an answer, but I'll definitely be checking this thread. We just got a house with an older oil furnace, and there's natural gas already in the house. We're wondering whether we should get a new gas unit, and whether it might be better to go 2-stage with a heat pump. We got roughly the same seller subsidy for that same purpose :)
 

huberm

Golden Member
Dec 17, 2004
1,105
1
0
Originally posted by: sjwaste
Good question. I don't have an answer, but I'll definitely be checking this thread. We just got a house with an older oil furnace, and there's natural gas already in the house. We're wondering whether we should get a new gas unit, and whether it might be better to go 2-stage with a heat pump. We got roughly the same seller subsidy for that same purpose :)

Some websites seem to indicate that natural gas would be about the same cost as operating a heat pump. I have also heard some people say a heat pump is not too great paired with a fossil fuel furnace because the coil gets too warm for the heat pump to be effective.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
0
76
If you want good comfortable heat, then keep the electric furnace. I would go with better insulation.
 

huberm

Golden Member
Dec 17, 2004
1,105
1
0
Originally posted by: amdskip
What does the attic have in it for insulation right now?

I'm not sure yet, I haven't had a chance to access the attic. I will definitely be looking into that when the home inspector is there.
 

zixxer

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2001
7,326
0
0
In general, insulation is cheap and something you can easily do yourself - particularly if the attic is open. Because of this, I'd have the seller pay for a heat pump and cover any needed insulation on my own.

Make sure they don't go and buy a builder's grade heat pump - it won't save as much money as something with a good energy star rating.
 

amdskip

Lifer
Jan 6, 2001
22,530
13
81
Adding 20" of insulation yourself in the attic should be less than $1000 if you do it yourself which is very easy. You need to make sure though that you have styrofoam baffles installed against the roof though to allow airflow.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
101,209
18,222
126
what is an electric furnace? Is it still forced air except instead of a gas furnace you have an electric rad as heating element?
 

amdskip

Lifer
Jan 6, 2001
22,530
13
81
Originally posted by: sdifox
what is an electric furnace? Is it still forced air except instead of a gas furnace you have an electric rad as heating element?
I'm not sure if that is what he has but this is what my place has and it works well actually.
 

mrrman

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2004
8,497
3
0
I would go with the heat pump., I have one and you will save alot of $$$ in the long run. Insulation can be added anytime when you want
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
101,209
18,222
126
Originally posted by: amdskip
Originally posted by: sdifox
what is an electric furnace? Is it still forced air except instead of a gas furnace you have an electric rad as heating element?
I'm not sure if that is what he has but this is what my place has and it works well actually.

kindda expensive to run no? If that is what it is, I would say op go for gas furnace replacement.
 

Oceandevi

Diamond Member
Jan 20, 2006
3,085
1
0
Originally posted by: amdskip
Adding 20" of insulation yourself in the attic should be less than $1000 if you do it yourself which is very easy. You need to make sure though that you have styrofoam baffles installed against the roof though to allow airflow.

Never heard of this..

Where exactly do these baffles go?
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
Originally posted by: Oceandevi
Originally posted by: amdskip
Adding 20" of insulation yourself in the attic should be less than $1000 if you do it yourself which is very easy. You need to make sure though that you have styrofoam baffles installed against the roof though to allow airflow.

Never heard of this..

Where exactly do these baffles go?

They go between the insulation and the roof. Generally, just the portion of the roof that contacts the insulation near the eaves.
 

Noirish

Diamond Member
May 2, 2000
3,959
0
0
if you can insulate the heat, you don't have to have the heat on much, that saving adds up.
 

bctbct

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2005
4,868
1
0
To get a realistic opinion you would have to know what insulation you have now. What do you have in the walls? How old is the house?
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,889
6,054
146
Originally posted by: mrrman
I would go with the heat pump., I have one and you will save alot of $$$ in the long run. Insulation can be added anytime when you want

I like this option because no one has mentioned the air conditioning aspect of the heat pump. I don't know your area well, but once I get east of the Rockies it gets too damn hot for me in July/August. The air condtioning would be welcome IMO.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
What climate are you in? Heat pump efficiencies go down the colder it is outside, in very cold climates they don't work as well. However, if it isn't too frigid a heat pump can heat your house the same amount as pure electric using roughly 1/3 the electricity. I'd go in that direction if it was me. $2k for a whole house heat pump seems a bit cheap to me though.
 

NoShangriLa

Golden Member
Sep 3, 2006
1,652
0
0


Insulate, new double panel windows, and heat pump if you can afford it.

Insulating should be the first option to be consider, but it can be a costly renovation. Spray foam insulation is a good renovation option because the wall doesn't need to be remove for bat & plastic sheeting.

And, keep in mind that insulation thermal resistant (R-value) return works on an exponential scale therefore at some point the R-value return doesn't increase significantly enough to warrant the increase in insulation volume/cost.

Heat pump is not worth the renovation cost for a house that have existing electric heating or hydronic heating (geothermal heat pump is an option with existing hydronic if the soil/large body of water is favorable).

Air source heat pump is the way to go, if the house have existing oil/gas heating ductwork (at -1 C or -2 C backup heat source kick in). Oil/gas ductwork is slightly undersize for heat pump but it only need minor modification on the return air (larger return air opening) to accommodate the heat pump cfm requirement. However, the supply line will be undersize therefore the friction air speed will be higher (translate to slightly higher blower noise transfer, make sure to get variable speed blower to accommodate/prevent back pressure against the blower).

Air source heat pump best case scenario for energy saving can be up to 75% less (manufacture & pro heat pump organization/business) than traditional oil/gas/electric energy consumption. In my experience air-to-air heat pumps saving is around 55%-60% (at perfect ductwork calculation, heat pump sizing, perfect refrigerant level, and mild coastal climate) when compare to oil/gas/electric.

Geothermal heat pumps manufacture claim up to 85% energy saving compare to oil/gas/electric energy consumption, but in my experience at best it is around 75% in energy saving compare to oil/gas/electric. Ambience air temperature don't affect geothermal because the heat is ground source. (High initial setup cost)

Where can I send you the bill for the consultation fees ;)

Some websites seem to indicate that natural gas would be about the same cost as operating a heat pump. I have also heard some people say a heat pump is not too great paired with a fossil fuel furnace because the coil gets too warm for the heat pump to be effective.
It greatly depends on your local natural gas price vs. electric price, but for most milder climate (coastal area) air source heat pump operational cost should be at least 1/2 that of NG.

It is fine to have fossil fuel running as backup with heat pump, and in many case better if you have backup electric generator, because fossil fuel heating require very little electricity to operate in a electrical blackout.

Adding 20" of insulation yourself in the attic should be less than $1000 if you do it yourself which is very easy. You need to make sure though that you have styrofoam baffles installed against the roof though to allow airflow.
Double the thickness of insulation is not going to double your R-value. If the R-value is already at 45-50 (14" fiberglass bats, or 12" blown in cellulose) you aren't going to get much energy saving when doubling the thickness of the insulation/cost.

We're wondering whether we should get a new gas unit, and whether it might be better to go 2-stage with a heat pump. We got roughly the same seller subsidy for that same purpose
Go with heat pump/fossil fuel if you have the finance.

Make sure they don't go and buy a builder's grade heat pump - it won't save as much money as something with a good energy star rating.
In some case you are correct, but in others you are not.

It all come down to support & maintenance. There are only a handful of heat pump manufactures but there are many make an models (many are manufacture under different names), however the refrigeration/mechanic companies specializes in certain make/models for simplicity sake (ask for high SEER value). Therefore, it could be cheaper on install & maintenance fees if you stick with the builder/installer suggestive models.

I have seen many cheap heat pumps (thousands dollar less than builder/installer) that sells direct to the uneducated consumer. Cheap heat pumps tend to have slightly cheaper compressor (nosier and doesn't last as long) and/or poorer workmanship. Some weren't intend to be repair, because there aren't space to work on it or the parts are facing the wrong way/difficult to get at, therefore the high repair cost can be very intimidating (there are mechanic that refuse to work on lesser heat pump because they do not want to warranty it).

There are good deal on heat pumps to be had on the internet if you are an intelligent consumer that do your home work. But, keep in mind the maintenance and installation factor when you do your shopping.
 

huberm

Golden Member
Dec 17, 2004
1,105
1
0
Thanks for all of the input everybody. I talked more with the seller and he has now agreed to pay for both, so its an easier decision!
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
Originally posted by: zixxer
In general, insulation is cheap and something you can easily do yourself - particularly if the attic is open. Because of this, I'd have the seller pay for a heat pump and cover any needed insulation on my own.

Make sure they don't go and buy a builder's grade heat pump - it won't save as much money as something with a good energy star rating.



Just about to post the same. Insulation is easy and cheap. In fact Lowes and HD usually run rebates like buy $300 worth and get a $100 gift card.


Also don;t forget to get some silicone and fill in any gaps around windows, electrical outlets, doors, etc... Replace your AC/Heat filter with a cheap pleated one. Don;t get the high end model but the cheapest pleated one. It filters very well without restricting airflow. Check your duct work to make sure it is intact and not leaking. Is the water heater gas or electric? How old?
 

huberm

Golden Member
Dec 17, 2004
1,105
1
0
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Originally posted by: zixxer
In general, insulation is cheap and something you can easily do yourself - particularly if the attic is open. Because of this, I'd have the seller pay for a heat pump and cover any needed insulation on my own.

Make sure they don't go and buy a builder's grade heat pump - it won't save as much money as something with a good energy star rating.



Just about to post the same. Insulation is easy and cheap. In fact Lowes and HD usually run rebates like buy $300 worth and get a $100 gift card.


Also don;t forget to get some silicone and fill in any gaps around windows, electrical outlets, doors, etc... Replace your AC/Heat filter with a cheap pleated one. Don;t get the high end model but the cheapest pleated one. It filters very well without restricting airflow. Check your duct work to make sure it is intact and not leaking. Is the water heater gas or electric? How old?

the water heater is a brand new electric one. I don't think it is really high efficieny. I do plan on getting a water heater blanket for it and turning it down to 120.