new hand compliance law coming

[Jhhnn]

Well if it doesnt happen to you it never happens.

And it doesn't happen to millions of other people every year, either. That's obvious.

Which is not to excuse bad cops at all.

 

[BoberFett]

And it doesn't happen to millions of other people every year, either. That's obvious.

Which is not to excuse bad cops at all.

You're fine, so fuck everybody else right? You sound exactly like a Republican. No surprise there though, two sides of the same coin.

 

[Fern]

I don't know how the numbers work out on that specific point, but I think there has been a concerted effort since 9/11 to portray all police officers as heroic warrior first responders putting their lives on the line every day, and that's simply a myth. I've looked up the numbers of cops killed by assault while on duty and compared it to the total number of armed law enforcement officers. All of these numbers are estimates but the inescapable conclusion is that police are at greater danger driving to work before their shift, and more of them die from obesity than assault. None of this should be very surprising, because inflating our importance is basically what all humans do in all cases. However these humans work on an armed team and have the force of law behind them, so it is in our best interest to curb their natural desire to be special snowflakes.

I see this a lot. I tend to think such statistics are misleading. I think the LEO patrolling in cars and those responding to calls, whether break-ins, robberies or domestic violence are exposed to significant danger/risks.

However, there are LEO's doing other things. There are the middle and upper management types, the admin clerks, LEOs guarding the evidence warehouse, instructors and those working in forensics etc. If all employees are counted in such stats you'd also have 911 operators, in-house lawyers, HR people, accountants etc.

I suspect such stats do not accurately reflect the true risks to 'those on the streets'.

Fern

 

[master_shake_]

I can already picture police brutality videos based on this.

"HANDS IN THE AIR NOW! LICENSE IN REGISTRATION NOW!"
*person starts to put their hands up, but then reaches for license*
"I SAID HANDS IN THE AIR!"
*person puts hands in the air*
"I SAID LICENSE AND REGISTRATION! WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHEN I SPEAK TO YOU?"
*person goes to reach for license*
"STOP DROP THE WEAPON" *empties clip into person's chest*


Though to be fair, you should probably have license and registration ready before they make it to your window, and don't give them trouble just because you think you can. I've seen videos of people trying to "exercise their rights" they never end well. You do not have any rights when you are in the process of being stopped by police, it's a grim reality. Just do what you're told and hope for the best.

Here it's not as bad as states yet though (Bill C-51 did not pass yet, that will change everything), I got stopped a few times and the cops never really gave me trouble.

this seems pretty likely.

 

[Jhhnn]

You're fine, so fuck everybody else right? You sound exactly like a Republican. No surprise there though, two sides of the same coin.

And the double down into deliberately obtuse.

 

[master_shake_]

i was gonna post a thread for this but ill just leave it here. cop beats his son into vegetative state, he is expected to die. he's held on $100,000 bond (which equates to a real bond of $10,000) and will likely go free within the week. his wife was complicit and knew her husband was dangerous, still gave him the kid. she was freed for $200

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/po...-hospital-expect-recover/#YOiqSuZ38jFZErzq.99



i guess its ok to kill your kids if you are a cop

i am in favour of the death penalty for any abuse like this.

but not the quick and painless ones.

 

[Paul98]

at least more and more people are starting to see these problems.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Stupid shit happens, no doubt. Doesn't mean I need to contribute to it, or that such incidents aren't extremely rare.

I'm sure those people felt pretty much the same way. The American justice system from police to prosecutor to judiciary is pretty darn broken, it seems, throughout the country. Just hope that you never run into a feral/crooked/frightened/stupid cop who will be protected by his/her dept. and local prosecutor's office and, probably, the judge.

Seattle, Albuquerque, Cleveland, New Orleans, Newark, Portland, Ferguson, just a few of the American city police departments investigated over the past several years and all found seriously wanting. (links to some of the reports: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/05/justice-department-police-review_n_6271660.html)

 

[touchstone]

Police are to be feared, make no bones about it. They are not there to protect you or anybody other than themselves, and probably don't want to be there any more than you do. The job itself attracts the kind of people who 'enjoy' using force on others, ex military and certain athletes. Often the loser in highschool who got beat up every day becomes the new sheriff, and watch out if you were one of the ones who picked on him.



If you wonder why they are to be feared, it isn't the weapons or the uniform or even the force they use itself, it is the total lack of accountability. Cops can get away with almost anything and believe me they know it.

 

[Darwin333]

I am all for change. I just believe that a calm, respectful, non-threatening citizen yields a calm, respectful, non-threatening cop more often than not. I think that is a lot more likely to yield change than being belligerent, and a lot smarter behavior to teach our kids.

Acting politely and decent during an interaction with the police is obviously a good idea but it should never be a prerequisite for not getting dead. I, nor you, get to shoot someone or choke them to death because they were assholes. Allow me to play devils advocate, how do you think our society would look if everyone treated people the way jackbooted thugs do? If someone bumps into you, regardless of intent, you bodyslam them, taze em or even shoot the fucker. Someone doesn't do exactly what you say in a high stress environment exactly when you say it, you escalate force instead of what most reasonable people try to do which is deescalate. Now imagine that the justice system was completely and totally stacked in the favor of the people escalating force on otherwise peaceful people.

We used to have peace officers, now we have paramilitary organizations that think that 3 deaths in the last two years requires a change in law to give police even more power all under the guise of officer safety, despite the fact that they have a very safe job per the statistics. My roofers have a FAR more dangerous job and are much more likely to die due to job related activities, why are they not allowed to put the public at greater risk of harm or death to protect themselves?

Let us not forget that we as a nation were a much more civil and polite people thirty or forty years ago. (Well, admittedly not necessarily to black folks. Maybe some people just have to be dicks to someone.)

We had peace officers back then. Their jobs were to protect and keep the peace. Now we have people that can't wait to kick down doors, we have revenue collectors that put people in literal debtors prisons, we have people that are judged by how many tickets they wrote and not how good they protected society. Then the absolutely worst part is we have the blue wall of silence, if you rat out a fellow officer because he/she did something absurdly illegal the entire department, including supervisors, will ruin your career and threaten your life. Then you have a justice system, whose job performance (and reelection) depend on working very closely with the very same people they are prosecuting/determining to bring charges against. It is the very definition of a conflict of interest.

Like you, being polite has served me well but the overall situation just keeps getting worse. I see no solution until things get much worse, the population will continue to become "us versus them" which just adds even more jet fuel to the fire.

What about the rare cases in which a cop is shot. If you shoot a cop they will pull out every last stop to catch your ass. That includes shutting down every last business in a town, denying entire areas freedom of movement (if you aren't home you ain't getting home for a few days and if you are home you ain't getting anywhere else for a few days) and just a blatant disregard for very basic constitutional rights. You kill the exact same amount of people, exact same demographic, fuck a twin brother of a cop and the response isn't even close. Seems to me that the police have a fuckton more safety than just about every other group of citizens, including the ability to shoot you for doing something they "perceive" as a threat despite it being normal behavior. I used to have my registration and insurance ready for the cop when he walked up to the window, now I am afraid he might "perceive" that as me grabbing a bazooka or my M249 rifle loaded with armor piercing rounds or maybe a stinger missile or some other shit. If they are that scared to approach a vehicle that killing an innocent person is an acceptable consequence to increasing their safety, I believe they should have a job with far less stress.

Oh yeah, when they do fuckup and are sued, despite it being their actions, the taxpayer takes the hit and they go on about their lives with virtually zero repercussions. It doesn't take an expert to know that if you allow people to do things without repercussions that they will continue to do so with increasing severity. Is it really to much to ask that police officers be subjected to the same laws that we simple citizens (or sillyvins that they often call us, as if we are a second class group) are subjected to and expected to uphold the oath they took?

Bottom line, YES you should be polite to all people in general but you have absolutely zero right to be treated politely and you have absolutely zero right to assault someone who isn't being polite. It sure doesn't help you but being an asshole isn't a crime. I can't tell you how many police encounters I've witnessed in the quarter where the cops go straight to level 10 dick mode right off the bat, why can't the citizen assault THEM for being dicks if the other party is allowed to?

 

[Darwin333]

I see this a lot. I tend to think such statistics are misleading. I think the LEO patrolling in cars and those responding to calls, whether break-ins, robberies or domestic violence are exposed to significant danger/risks.

However, there are LEO's doing other things. There are the middle and upper management types, the admin clerks, LEOs guarding the evidence warehouse, instructors and those working in forensics etc. If all employees are counted in such stats you'd also have 911 operators, in-house lawyers, HR people, accountants etc.

I suspect such stats do not accurately reflect the true risks to 'those on the streets'.

Fern

Most of the statistics I read only include people with arrest capabilities which takes all of those admin and 911 callers out of the numbers.

More to the point, we keep being told that it is an absurdly dangerous job and this OP is about 3 officers being killed over 2 years. That's 1.5 a year in what is supposedly one of the most dangerous jobs you can hold. If the claim that it IS that dangerous, shouldn't 1.5 a year be expected? In my city you can pick almost any construction trade and you get more than 1.5 work related deaths per year. Hell I bet cab drivers get killed by at least that rate.

The difference is that none of those other professions are allowed to put the rest of the publics safety at risk to increase their own safety a slight bit. A guy who is willing to shoot a cop will not be deterred by this rule unless cops quite literally shoot everyone who doesn't comply in the back. I guess the true question we need to ask ourselves is, how badly do you think all the decent people should be fucked with, harassed, made feel like criminals, beaten, tazed, shot, needlessly arrested, detained, fined, put through great financial hardship and potentially killed to reduce that 1.5/year number for people that claim they knowingly signed up for a very dangerous profession?

 

[SandEagle]

Most of the statistics I read only include people with arrest capabilities which takes all of those admin and 911 callers out of the numbers.

More to the point, we keep being told that it is an absurdly dangerous job and this OP is about 3 officers being killed over 2 years. That's 1.5 a year in what is supposedly one of the most dangerous jobs you can hold. If the claim that it IS that dangerous, shouldn't 1.5 a year be expected? In my city you can pick almost any construction trade and you get more than 1.5 work related deaths per year. Hell I bet cab drivers get killed by at least that rate.

The difference is that none of those other professions are allowed to put the rest of the publics safety at risk to increase their own safety a slight bit. A guy who is willing to shoot a cop will not be deterred by this rule unless cops quite literally shoot everyone who doesn't comply in the back. I guess the true question we need to ask ourselves is, how badly do you think all the decent people should be fucked with, harassed, made feel like criminals, beaten, tazed, shot, needlessly arrested, detained, fined, put through great financial hardship and potentially killed to reduce that 1.5/year number for people that claim they knowingly signed up for a very dangerous profession?

i mentioned this last year with pictures:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36671060&postcount=16
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=36671223
raise the minimum quals to become a cop.

 

[Darwin333]

i mentioned this last year with pictures:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36671060&postcount=16
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=36671223
raise the minimum quals to become a cop.

Oh trust me, I know the statistics very well and have went over them a ton of times myself. My profession happens to be on that list and if I, and the men that work for me, have a more dangerous job than the police (and everything says that we do) then they need to either nut up or find a different job.

THEY chose to pursue what they claim is a very dangerous profession. Harming/killing innocent people for bullshit reasons all in the name of officer safety should be just as unacceptable for them as it is for me.

 

[werepossum]

i mentioned this last year with pictures:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36671060&postcount=16
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=36671223
raise the minimum quals to become a cop.

Agreed, the minimum qualifications should be significantly higher. Cops also need higher pay to attract people with higher qualifications, but raising the pay on substandard officers just makes it harder to get rid of them.

My wife and I were discussing that this week, about how my home county went through a phase where the vast majority of deputies were musclebound tushhogs from 18 to 22, guys just primed to explode into 'roid rage. In my opinion no cops should be less than 25; the maturity to use deadly force is simply not there in most cases. The counter to this argument is generally the military, but military training is much longer and much more rigorous, the ROE are generally much more clearly defined, discipline is much better, and the younger guys are under direct supervision of more experienced NCOs.

 

[1prophet]

Bottom line, YES you should be polite to all people in general but you have absolutely zero right to be treated politely and you have absolutely zero right to assault someone who isn't being polite. It sure doesn't help you but being an asshole isn't a crime. I can't tell you how many police encounters I've witnessed in the quarter where the cops go straight to level 10 dick mode right off the bat, why can't the citizen assault THEM for being dicks if the other party is allowed to?

You want the right to be an asshole but no one should be an asshole to you, in theory that sounds great except for one thing, in the real world it doesn't work that way,

Because the police we have today are created from the same zero tolerant society we demand and have received from our politicians,

Violence, and brutality, along with zero tolerance is promoted and worshiped today as an effective means to solve our problems, while communication, reasoning, and diffusing potentially dangerous scenarios with violence as a last resort are looked down as being weak and ineffective.

We may say we want the Andy Griffith type police, but when something goes wrong we demand the Dirty Harry, Judge Dred type police to come and save us from ourselves.

 

[BoberFett]

And the double down into deliberately obtuse.

You're an utter waste of carbon.

 

[Darwin333]

I see this a lot. I tend to think such statistics are misleading. I think the LEO patrolling in cars and those responding to calls, whether break-ins, robberies or domestic violence are exposed to significant danger/risks.

However, there are LEO's doing other things. There are the middle and upper management types, the admin clerks, LEOs guarding the evidence warehouse, instructors and those working in forensics etc. If all employees are counted in such stats you'd also have 911 operators, in-house lawyers, HR people, accountants etc.

I suspect such stats do not accurately reflect the true risks to 'those on the streets'.

Fern

Only people with the authority to arrest people are counted.

 

[Darwin333]

You want the right to be an asshole but no one should be an asshole to you, in theory that sounds great except for one thing, in the real world it doesn't work that way,

No, I most definitely do not. I want everyone to have the right to be an asshole if they so choose. More importantly, I want the law to apply equally to everyone. That is all, evidently too much to ask.