New furnace with heat pump added opinions please

[Fanatical Meat]

it’s time to replace our 30+ year old forced hot air oil furnace
Facts:
Wife will no go propane so please don’t suggest
Street does not have practical natural gas access
Prices have been rounded
We have solar and produce more energy than consumed 10 or 11 months a year
We live outside of Boston, MA
House only has heat right now no cooling
I would get a $750 state rebate
1064 square foot house, ranch, no finished basement

My oil guy quoted be $8200 to install a new 86% efficient Williamson CHB-105 with ecm blower this part is $3684
Adding new Bosch heat pump outside, no model number but he said it’s the new one that can provide heat down to zero degrees no note on the size cost $5136. This would be a completely new part house has no AC now. He mentioned building a block about two feet off the ground for the heat pump to keep it above the snow

We could go with a more traditional ac unit and save $1700, this seems silly to me.

What are your opinions guys, does this sound like a fair price. We’ve been doing business with this oil company since 2011.
Fun fact the guy who owns the oil company said a couple of years ago. When he started his apprenticeship he installed a bunch of these systems (1959-1965). When he started his own business he replaced a bunch (late 80s), now he’s training apprentices doing work on them.

 

[stormkroe]

That seems insanely expensive to me. Is the $3k blower included in the $8k install price at least? Or is the $5k heat pump in there?
A furnace swap that only needs minor duct adaptation takes 2-5 hours labor.
Also, i would note that the chb105 is ENORMOUS for 1064 sq ft. I have a 95k btu furnace in my canada house heating 3500 sq ft and even then 95k was probably a bit more than i needed. In Canada.
Maybe get at least another quote from someone else?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

That seems insanely expensive to me. Is the $3k blower included in the $8k install price at least? Or is the $5k heat pump in there?
A furnace swap that only needs minor duct adaptation takes 2-5 hours labor.
Also, i would note that the chb105 is ENORMOUS for 1064 sq ft. I have a 95k btu furnace in my canada house heating 3500 sq ft and even then 95k was probably a bit more than i needed. In Canada.
Maybe get at least another quote from someone else?

$8.1k is the full installed price with everything including heat pump and adding duct/footing and electric for it. We currently only have a furnace.
*I think* the furnace he recommended is rated at 79.5k BTU at .65 gallons of fuel per hour.
https://www.williamson-thermoflo.co...oy-multi-speed-direct-drive-or-variable-speed
* heater w/ecm fan only installed is $3683
*Edit 2: I get your point, quick search seems to imply 50-60k BTU is required.
I'm not particularly experienced in this area so any advice is appreciated.

 

[Greenman]

The place to start is with a manual J, that will tell you how much heating and cooling you actually need. It's common practice to oversize the system, it's not energy efficient or cost effective, but it avoids having any issues with supply at the owners expense, and increases profits. It's a win win for the contractor.
I don't know about your area, but around the contractors markup on HVAC equipment is huge, 300% is pretty common.
A quick google search turned up 80k btu oil burners for around half what your guy is quoting. I don't know if the equipment quality is equal. If you intend to shop price you need to define exactly what you want and develop a scope of work. Otherwise everyone is going to hand you a price based on what they guess will work. No way to compare prices.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The place to start is with a manual J, that will tell you how much heating and cooling you actually need. It's common practice to oversize the system, it's not energy efficient or cost effective, but it avoids having any issues with supply at the owners expense, and increases profits. It's a win win for the contractor.
I don't know about your area, but around the contractors markup on HVAC equipment is huge, 300% is pretty common.
A quick google search turned up 80k btu oil burners for around half what your guy is quoting. I don't know if the equipment quality is equal. If you intend to shop price you need to define exactly what you want and develop a scope of work. Otherwise everyone is going to hand you a price based on what they guess will work. No way to compare prices.

Fair enough, looking to ideally keep the house 68-70 wife would be very happy with a consistent 70. I’m not particularly concerned about electric cost. Regarding brands, I have no loyalty I’d prefer to avoid China made equipment. Lower price is good but I’m ok with the guy making some margins. I’m in no way a lowest possible cost guy. To qualify for $750 state rebate old furnace must have a ecm fan and must be 86% efficient or better.
Currently the end run of the furnace does not heat the bedroom too well. Our current furnace has needed emergency service 6 times in 3 years. As of last check it was running at 79.8(?) efficiency.
Goal is more reliable equipment without using more oils we currently use about 325 gallons per year. I don’t expect to reduce the oil number that much.

Edit: what is this manual j thing? $75 an hour for 5 Days? What is it?

 

[Greenman]

Fair enough, looking to ideally keep the house 68-70 wife would be very happy with a consistent 70. I’m not particularly concerned about electric cost. Regarding brands, I have no loyalty I’d prefer to avoid China made equipment. Lower price is good but I’m ok with the guy making some margins. I’m in no way a lowest possible cost guy. To qualify for $750 state rebate old furnace must have a ecm fan and must be 86% efficient or better.
Currently the end run of the furnace does not heat the bedroom too well. Our current furnace has needed emergency service 6 times in 3 years. As of last check it was running at 79.8(?) efficiency.
Goal is more reliable equipment without using more oils we currently use about 325 gallons per year. I don’t expect to reduce the oil number that much.

Edit: what is this manual j thing? $75 an hour for 5 Days? What is it?

Manual J is how the actual heating and cooling needs of a building are calculated. I don't know where you got that $75 an hour for a week number, but it's insane. The last two I've had done were about $450. That was for the manual J and the manual D. The goal being to design a system that's matched to your home. Properly done, the system will operate at peak performance and maximum comfort. I use both on all of my major remodels because the systems end up working so well. Here in CA, we also have to test for duct leakage, and on complete gut job we have to test the entire house for air leakage. It's a pain in the ass, but I always end up with homes that are really comfortable, and my clients are happy.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Manual J is how the actual heating and cooling needs of a building are calculated. I don't know where you got that $75 an hour for a week number, but it's insane. The last two I've had done were about $450. That was for the manual J and the manual D. The goal being to design a system that's matched to your home. Properly done, the system will operate at peak performance and maximum comfort. I use both on all of my major remodels because the systems end up working so well. Here in CA, we also have to test for duct leakage, and on complete gut job we have to test the entire house for air leakage. It's a pain in the ass, but I always end up with homes that are really comfortable, and my clients are happy.

Website wasn’t too mobile friendly, I likely misunderstood
Does it test simultaneously for heat & cooling?

 

[Greenman]

Website wasn’t too mobile friendly, I likely misunderstood
Does it test simultaneously for heat & cooling?

Yes. Manual J gives you both loads per room of the house. Manual D tells you what size duct to use, and even the proper register to use at the end. What manual D doesn't cover is incorrectly installed flex duct. It assumes proper instillation, and that often doesn't happen. There is even talk of severely limiting the use of flex duct in future building code because of the many instillation problems.

 

[paperfist]

OT but that sounds great that solar provides your needs for all but 2 months out of the year. I was under the impression that wasn't possible in the NE. What's a system like that cost?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

OT but that sounds great that solar provides your needs for all but 2 months out of the year. I was under the impression that wasn't possible in the NE. What's a system like that cost?

We may make 12 for 12 this year. We produced more than used in January and I’ll bet February. Just need to clear March & April.
This does assume there isn’t a crap ton of snow like 4 years ago. If my panels are under snow it’s zero production. Once one tiny corner of a panel is exposed to the sun all the snow melts off them within a day or two.
Total cost was about 23k, about 9k in rebates & tax incentives plus it produces 8-10 sreqs per year which generates 2-2.5k in income. Assuming you have an sreq market to sell the production on and assuming you have a decent efficiency rating for your sun. I highly recommend solar.
Our efficiency is either 93 or 94% efficient.

 

[PowerEngineer]

I was drawn to this thread because we also have a 30+ year old heating system that is bound to need replacing soon.

In our case, however, we have a gas-fired hot air furnace that backs up an electric heat pump. Back then, I vaguely remember that the difference between a heat pump and just an air conditioner was around $400. The physical difference is only a reversing valve. I remember calculating that the payback (based on reduced gas costs versus increased electric costs) was only a couple of years. I have also heard the argument that having the unit run all year as a heat pump is actually better than having it sit idle in winter as just an air conditioner (might not be true today). I also remember that in our case the calculated tonnage for air conditioning was larger than that for heating. FWIW, our heat pump is a Trane and it has been trouble free.

On the other hand, the original gas-fired furnace was undersized for our 3500' house. Following a power outage during a cold snap, its 64,000 net BTUs (80,000 gross 80% efficient) couldn't bring the inside temperature above 55 degrees. We subsequently learned that the building standards in the 1980's encouraged smaller furnace sizings that maximized run-times for better efficiency, and one way they did this was by using average rather than extreme wind and temperature assumptions. Once we swapped it with a 95,000 net BTU (100,000 gross 95% efficient) we never had another problem. I would therefore make sure that any sizing calculations that you use are based on extreme conditions and then opt for the next bigger size.

My two cents...

 

[Greenman]

I was drawn to this thread because we also have a 30+ year old heating system that is bound to need replacing soon.

In our case, however, we have a gas-fired hot air furnace that backs up an electric heat pump. Back then, I vaguely remember that the difference between a heat pump and just an air conditioner was around $400. The physical difference is only a reversing valve. I remember calculating that the payback (based on reduced gas costs versus increased electric costs) was only a couple of years. I have also heard the argument that having the unit run all year as a heat pump is actually better than having it sit idle in winter as just an air conditioner (might not be true today). I also remember that in our case the calculated tonnage for air conditioning was larger than that for heating. FWIW, our heat pump is a Trane and it has been trouble free.

On the other hand, the original gas-fired furnace was undersized for our 3500' house. Following a power outage during a cold snap, its 64,000 net BTUs (80,000 gross 80% efficient) couldn't bring the inside temperature above 55 degrees. We subsequently learned that the building standards in the 1980's encouraged smaller furnace sizings that maximized run-times for better efficiency, and one way they did this was by using average rather than extreme wind and temperature assumptions. Once we swapped it with a 95,000 net BTU (100,000 gross 95% efficient) we never had another problem. I would therefore make sure that any sizing calculations that you use are based on extreme conditions and then opt for the next bigger size.

My two cents...

You could also have some massive leaks in those 30 year old ducts. I've worked on several homes where we found large openings in the duct work. I found one where two ducts weren't even connected when it was built, they just dumped conditioned air under the house.

 

[PowerEngineer]

You could also have some massive leaks in those 30 year old ducts. I've worked on several homes where we found large openings in the duct work. I found one where two ducts weren't even connected when it was built, they just dumped conditioned air under the house.

Yes, that was a possibility. We had a heating/cooling contractor inspect our entire system at that time, and everything including the duct work checked out fine. A review of the heating requirements showed without doubt that the furnace was undersized for the weather extremes in our location.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Heat pump update:
We went with the new Bosch model
It’s super quiet and electric results are in!
We had a stretch of stupidly hot weather when it was installed. Our electric usage went down vs the two previous years. Be interesting to see what the heating aspect does on our next bill period

 

[Sukhoi]

I was drawn to this thread because we also have a 30+ year old heating system that is bound to need replacing soon.

In our case, however, we have a gas-fired hot air furnace that backs up an electric heat pump. Back then, I vaguely remember that the difference between a heat pump and just an air conditioner was around $400. The physical difference is only a reversing valve. I remember calculating that the payback (based on reduced gas costs versus increased electric costs) was only a couple of years. I have also heard the argument that having the unit run all year as a heat pump is actually better than having it sit idle in winter as just an air conditioner (might not be true today). I also remember that in our case the calculated tonnage for air conditioning was larger than that for heating. FWIW, our heat pump is a Trane and it has been trouble free.

On the other hand, the original gas-fired furnace was undersized for our 3500' house. Following a power outage during a cold snap, its 64,000 net BTUs (80,000 gross 80% efficient) couldn't bring the inside temperature above 55 degrees. We subsequently learned that the building standards in the 1980's encouraged smaller furnace sizings that maximized run-times for better efficiency, and one way they did this was by using average rather than extreme wind and temperature assumptions. Once we swapped it with a 95,000 net BTU (100,000 gross 95% efficient) we never had another problem. I would therefore make sure that any sizing calculations that you use are based on extreme conditions and then opt for the next bigger size.

My two cents...

Don't necessarily size up. If your ducts can't flow the CFM required by a larger burner & blower at best you'll have a lot of airflow noise, or your furnace will turn off from an over temperature fault every 20-30 minutes when it's trying to catch up in the morning from being turned down overnight (what ours does). I've kind of mitigated that by programming the electronic thermostat to only go up 2 F per 30 mins, but it still sometimes faults.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

So here’s the heat pump update.

After much drama trying to get it to work for heat reliably and 6-8 different HVAC guys from three different companies looking at it. The f-img thing was wired wrong and the nest had to be “told” to use the O2 white wire to run reverse for heat instead of the blue wire that I don’t have. Brother in law who likes stuff like this located the problem. Grrr on the incompetent HVAC guys.

So the heat pump worked much of February, I have the nest set to use heat pump when temperature is 25 degrees or above. Net impact on our electric was about $85 off our credit which was $390-something.
We kept the house a consistent 68-70 degrees, I’ll mess with the nest settings this month, maybe allowing it to drop to 66 during the day and while we sleep makes sense.
For people who live in a cool climate I recommend this heat pump, just make sure the guys who install it read the installation instructions.
Not sure of our February oil usage but the level on the tank barely dropped. I’m going to guess we used 20-40 gallons.

@PowerEngineer

I'll likely do some duct work over the summer, during the install the ducts looked like a mess, so a good cleaning then I'll attempt to seal & insulate as good as I can.
I'm tempted to try to do the duct work myself and just toss the old stuff and start new but that may be more of a project than I am capable of.

I'm trying to get my head around that we may be able to go an entire winter and only use a half a tank of oil or maybe less next year.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Likely the final update, moved the heat pump to work at or above 20 degrees mid cycle. Our February electric usage was flat vs 2018 and $30 less vs 2017. Kept the house 68-70 degrees except during the night and part of the afternoon.
During February I used about 1/8th a tank of oil Pre heat pump we would use about 1/4 to 1/3rd a tank keeping the house 66-68 while home.
Savings wise it’s decent but not huge, comfort wise it’s great.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I lied earlier....Summer update.

House was kept 72-76 degrees all summer, no significant change in power usage. Bill was essentially flat vs using 2-3 fans.