"New Era of Civility?"

[Steeplerot]

Why are you bringing corporations into this?
This has to do with public workers.

The government is a employer. And people have more choices then to quit. They can better their situation so both sides can profit. The bill is not going to pass anyhow. Keep dreaming of Union Busting, you guys only turn off the average worker.

 

[ProfJohn]

http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/average-mps-teacher-compensation-tops-100kyear/

For the first time in history, the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public School system will exceed $100,000.

That staggering figure was revealed last night at a meeting of the MPS School Board.

The average salary for an MPS teacher is $56,500. When fringe benefits are factored in, the annual compensation will be $100,005 in 2011.

 

[davmat787]

So the voters can't collectively bargain either? The only way the public employee unions will be happy is with more, more, and still more and we are in the middle of a financial crisis. The bill is not even asking to reduce headcount from what I understand, just asking everyone to give in a little. For fucks sake go look at how many people don't even have jobs right now! The fucking arrogance is off the charts!

 

[matt0611]

The government is a employer. And people have more choices then to quit. They can better their situation so both sides can profit. The bill is not going to pass anyhow. Keep dreaming of Union Busting, you guys only turn off the average worker.

Yeah, they have more choices, they can agree to work under mutual terms.
The employer (government, i.e. the people of the state) has decided its terms are that there will be no more collective bargaining. So either you agree to the terms or you quit.

 

[Steeplerot]

The "free market voice of Wisconsin" lol!

*ahem* Someone is chocking on the Koch.

 

[Steeplerot]

For fucks sake go look at how many people don't even have jobs right now! The fucking arrogance is off the charts!

So we should screw the last of the middle class? Great idea! Now who actually deserves a living wage in this country? Besides the obvious, like CEOs, Talk Radio partisans and bimbo foxnews propagandists?

Surely not teachers! :sneaky:

And who will fight for the workers who deserve a living wage? The corporations? Limbaugh? lol!

Those assholes are already rich. Good luck getting anything from them without a U-N-I-O-N you serfs.

 

[davmat787]

So we should screw the last of the middle class? Great idea! Now who actually deserves a living wage in this country? Besides the obvious, like CEOs, Talk Radio partisans and bimbo foxnews propagandists?

Surely not teachers! :sneaky:

And who will fight for the workers who deserve a living wage? The corporations? lol!

How would this bill make teachers no longer part of the middle class? How much is this really going to mean in real dollars per year?

 

[Steeplerot]

How much is this really going to mean in real dollars per year?

I dunno, are we putting a price tag on the education of this countries children and our future viability as a economic power?

Shit man, lets just retrain burger flippers to be teachers, they dont need much, or just have the entitled brats educate themselves. We need that money to pay chinas workers!

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Man those cheeseheads are on a roll in 2011 first they win the Super Bowl, now egypt style insurection against the newly minted republican dictator Power to the people, they will be heard

 

[Steeplerot]

By the way, this is probably the most appropriate thread to show it.

Solidarity with Wisconsin!

Not a damn thing to be scared of when they have it all anyhow, and nothing to lose but our chains..

WORKING CLASS PRIDE USA

Hang in there WI, these serfs just show whose side they are on.

 

[davmat787]

I dunno, are we putting a price tag on the education of this countries children and our future viability as a economic power?

Shit man, lets just retrain burger flippers to be teachers, they dont need much, or just have the entitled brats educate themselves. We need that money to pay chinas workers!

Why not answer the question you conveniently left out of the quote, again?

Why do you keep on retorting with lame emotional appeals that teachers will end up on the streets selling their ass for crack or that little Timmy will become retarted overnight if this bill passes?

Why do you insist this bill represents the end of the last of the middle class of America?

Why do you keep referring to evil corporations when this is in regards to a public employee union?

Why why WHY?

 

[matt0611]

Man those cheeseheads are on a roll in 2011 first they win the Super Bowl, now egypt style insurection against the newly minted republican dictator Power to the people, they will be heard

And the democrats left the states like a bunch of spoiled children who can't get there way. So much for democracy and power to the people.

"Lets here it for democracy!"*

*When we agree with it, otherwise fuck it, skip town

 

[Steeplerot]

on the streets selling their ass for crack or that little Timmy will become retarted overnight if this bill passes?

You guys are really bad at bombastic statements lol

I am willing to bet this does not pass though, care for a gentlemanly wager comrade? Willing to bet against the working class of WI?

 

[davmat787]

You guys are really bad at bombastic statements lol

I am willing to bet this does not pass though, care for a gentlemanly wager comrade? Willing to bet against the working class of WI?

Sorry if it wasn't up to your standard, but you have way more experience making bombastic statements as it is your modus operandi, I try and stay away from 'em.

And no, I will not bet against the middle class of WI, I am cheering for them. Hopefully a trend of lower taxes will reverse the trend of corporations, and thus jobs, leaving the state.

And you still can't explain why this bill will destroy the middle class of WI. Care to try?

 

[HomerJS]

I'm surprised FNE isn't having a big wet dream the left employing Tea Bagging tactics.

Now having got my flaming skull retort out of the way as usual the answer lies somewhere closer to the middle.

In todays economy it isn't unreasonable to suggest employees pay something a little more then 0 for their pension and healthcare. However that's something that has to be negotiated at the bargining table not dictated by fiat.

State police, local police and fire departments would be exempt from Walkers mandate. Just so happens those unions supported him during the election.

Unions made $100 million in concessions last Dec.

Walker wants to take away their right of collective bargining except salary.

This is as much about union busting as it is balancing the budget on the backs of workers.
2 of the top 5 political donors were labor unions. In 2010 it was 2 out of 10. If the union busting domino train spreads across the country the only major political donors left will be corporations, the NRA and other right wing pacs.

If this is really about the budget and altering already agreed upon contracts is on the table tell me if thie scenario would ever happen...

Say Wisconsin owed 100mil in bonds to Wall St. The state says we are in dire financial straits so we are only going to pay you 90mill. Think that would ever fly??????

 

[werepossum]

The extreme left is a hypocritical condescending parent that scolds someone for an activity and then does the exact same thing, all while talking down to them.

The extreme right is a semi-retarded religious teenager that is very warm and loving right up until you disagree with him/her on anything, at which point they react with all the petulant fury of a 3 year old who was just denied a cookie.

Take your pick. Social progress with a mandatory nanny, or social regress with more overall freedom. God our parties suck.

LOL True, and the most sick and amusing thing is that you can swap "left" and "right" in your statements and be equally accurate. Conservatives often do the very things they decry, and progressives have virtually cornered the market on petulant toddler fury.

Obviously we need a new party. A party that:
Will act with fiscal restraint and sanity.
Will not redistribute your hard-won wages to others simply because they have less.
Does not care if your spouse is an innie or an outie.
Does not care if you buy beer on a particular day.
Does not care WHAT you do unless it materially harms others (or demonstrates an immediate and reasonable expectation of doing so.)
Does not care if something offends you.
Will not spend a million (or billion) dollars for a thing we don't need simply because people in a preferred district will be paid to furnish it.
Will actually examine all policies to find that which is best for America, not pay rote allegiance to free trade or to protectionism.
Can recognize that we need to be developing new sources of energy, but that we also need to use our domestic sources until we can make new sources available.
Can recognize that the value of a forest, mountain or stream is not solely what one can take from it, but also in its existence.
Can recognize that any species with which we can coexist is unique and valuable and deserving of protection.
Can recognize and admit that while providing benefits for the middle class buys votes, it is ultimately self-defeating to believe that government can provide prosperity by giving median income voters bennies.
Can recognize that some socialism is required for civilization, but too much is bad.

I shall call it the GAP party (for generalizations and platitudes, of course.)

 

[werepossum]

You guys are really bad at bombastic statements lol

I am willing to bet this does not pass though, care for a gentlemanly wager comrade? Willing to bet against the working class of WI?

Amazing though at this point not surprising that you don't consider those taxpayers footing the bill as "the working class of WI".

 

[Steeplerot]

Amazing though at this point not surprising that you don't consider those taxpayers footing the bill as "the working class of WI".

I am not seeing a problem with teachers wages Were. Maybe if we had them wear corporate logos it would make you guys feel better? Daily whippings? Renounce communism every morning along with the pledge?
Prison labor teachers!

Not gonna happen anyway, even with a corporate dem in office.

 

[werepossum]

I am not seeing a problem with teachers wages Were. Maybe if we had them wear corporate logos it would make you guys feel better? Daily whippings? Renounce communism every morning along with the pledge?
Prison labor teachers!

Not gonna happen anyway, even with a corporate dem in office.

I'm not seeing a problem with teachers' wages either. I do see a problem with teachers' not contributing to their own retirement pensions and paying part of their own health insurance, to the same level as those whose taxes pay their salaries - and pensions, and health insurance. The same goes for all government workers, not just teachers - though I give somewhat of a pass to firemen and policemen. Not many of us face the prospect of stopping an armed felon or running into a burning building every day, and that kind of service deserves compensation.

 

[Steeplerot]

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combination of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labor above their actual rate.
When workers combine, masters ... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combination of servants, laborers, and journeymen.

-Adam Smith

 

[werepossum]

We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combination of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labor above their actual rate.
When workers combine, masters ... never cease to call aloud for the assistance of the civil magistrate, and the rigorous execution of those laws which have been enacted with so much severity against the combination of servants, laborers, and journeymen.

-Adam Smith

Agreed, resource owners are combined in tacit agreement not to raise wages above what they have to pay in order to get the job done. That is as it should be; a job is worth exactly what one man or entity is willing to pay to have it done and another man or entity is willing to take to do it, neither more nor less.

However, government workers are part of the greatest master - government. No other resource owner or manager has the power to compel you to fund its operations or consume its services, by deadly force if necessary; they can only entice. That is why government is the most dangerous of masters.

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-union. I am vociferously pro-trade union, where the unions actually bring value to the table (better training, better performance, and a better class of worker) except where they occasionally accumulate too much power. (Too much power corrupts, whether by the masses or by the masters.) I'm even tolerant of labor unions, which bring no value to the table but at least help equalize the playing field between the relatively powerless unskilled worker and the relatively powerful resource owner who can get literally anyone to provide his unskilled labor. I am less so in government. Government is not an abusive employer; it virtually falls over itself to provide better salaries and benefits even where not necessary to attract and retain qualified workers. This is because government is paying with other people's money, which is why unions together with government is so destructive.

 

[Axon]

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-union. I am vociferously pro-trade union, where the unions actually bring value to the table (better training, better performance, and a better class of worker) except where they occasionally accumulate too much power. (Too much power corrupts, whether by the masses or by the masters.) I'm even tolerant of labor unions, which bring no value to the table but at least help equalize the playing field between the relatively powerless unskilled worker and the relatively powerful resource owner who can get literally anyone to provide his unskilled labor. I am less so in government. Government is not an abusive employer; it virtually falls over itself to provide better salaries and benefits even where not necessary to attract and retain qualified workers. This is because government is paying with other people's money, which is why unions together with government is so destructive.

I agree. I remain pro-union in many ways...the issues I have with them are similar to yours - their encouragement of decidedly average results (example: I was a technician for Verizon for a time, and we were "encouraged" to only do three jobs a day; I could have 5 jobs done before lunch with only a moderate effort), or their abuses when they develop too much influence. Of course, without them, employers would run wild over worker's rights.

 

[werepossum]

I agree. I remain pro-union in many ways...the issues I have with them are similar to yours - their encouragement of decidedly average results (example: I was a technician for Verizon for a time, and we were "encouraged" to only do three jobs a day; I could have 5 jobs done before lunch with only a moderate effort), or their abuses when they develop too much influence. Of course, without them, employers would run wild over worker's rights.

Agreed. I think it's safe to say that when either resource owners or workers get too much power, society suffers. People are people, and whether they are billionaires without enough time to even spend a tenth of their fortune, or the lowliest unskilled minimum wage worker, people tend to be attracted to getting something for nothing.

One good thing about even unskilled labor unions right now is that with illegal immigration increasing our pool of unskilled labor, unions help keep wages from falling as quickly. (Unfortunately many of our companies have to compete globally, so keeping wages inflated merely makes those companies shrink and eventually fail.) Above that, skilled trade labor unions do an excellent job in training, delivering a (usually) superior worker and thus a superior product, and (at least in the competitive bid market) without greatly inflating costs. And some other unions still serve important functions in promoting and enforcing safety - mining especially comes to mind, where regulations should have supplanted unions but enforcement remains criminally lax.