Discussion New computer parts as an enviromental disaster?

[Kocicak]

The current broad trend in all technology is moving toward increased efficiency in order to decrease energy consumption, which has various negative effects.

I just saw a rumour that an upcoming Intel CPU will have special performance mode allowing 350W energy draw. It also seems that upcoming AMD CPUs will have higher TDP than the current generation.

What is the sense of this in the point of view of the broad trend I mentioned in the beginning? State regulation in my opinion is sometimes a good thing and at this point it seems that power draw of consumer computers should be limited.

I think that limits of 50W for CPU, 50W for integrated GPU and 150W for discrete GPU would satisfy needs of most people.

Parts with higher power draw could be heavilly taxed so that they would be financially viable only for proffesionals who would use them productively.

I understand that some people may find my idea not beneficial for whatever reasons but what is happening now in this part of PC market is ridiculous and needs to stop.

(and production of virtual currencies should be banned completely as a huge energy waste, but that is a different topic.)

 

[Tech Junky]

@Kocicak

Do you have a point or are you just trolling for a fight? Politics and a tech based thread are a bit much. If you didn't have the USA to bash you wouldn't be online either because of the innovations the USA has brought to the tech industry in the first place. The birth of the internet was due to US DOD research into how to communicate between locations and thus became the internet we have today. If the US didn't invent the nuclear bomb WWII would have ended quite differently resulting in more fascism worldwide. If the USA didn't have Intel / AMD you'd be stuck with your low power CPU's and no games to play. If the USA didn't bail out countries in trouble they would be consumed by their adversaries.

So, with some of this in mind which little S-hole do you live in that's so prestigious you think you have the ability to toss turds?

 

[CropDuster]

I am starting to feel that some of the posters here are from USA. Lack of effective state regulation made USA to have extremely poor or nonexistent public transportation systems and railways network, horribly high per capita energy consumption, problematic healthcare system with poor availability for some and overpriced for others, etc, etc, etc.

High per capita energy consumption and also greenhouse gas production is not just an internal problem of the USA, you are screwing things up for everybody on the planet.

USA serves as an example of disastruous impacts of a lack of state regulation and investment in many fields.

lol

 

[Thunder 57]

@Kocicak

Do you have a point or are you just trolling for a fight? Politics and a tech based thread are a bit much. If you didn't have the USA to bash you wouldn't be online either because of the innovations the USA has brought to the tech industry in the first place. The birth of the internet was due to US DOD research into how to communicate between locations and thus became the internet we have today. If the US didn't invent the nuclear bomb WWII would have ended quite differently resulting in more fascism worldwide. If the USA didn't have Intel / AMD you'd be stuck with your low power CPU's and no games to play. If the USA didn't bail out countries in trouble they would be consumed by their adversaries.

So, with some of this in mind which little S-hole do you live in that's so prestigious you think you have the ability to toss turds?

Never mind the lack of GPS/weather satellites. Oh and IIRC he is from a country that I love and lived in for a bit that was behind the Iron Curtain. Bet the US was helpful there too.

 

[Markfw]

I am starting to feel that some of the posters here are from USA. Lack of effective state regulation made USA to have extremely poor or nonexistent public transportation systems and railways network, horribly high per capita energy consumption, problematic healthcare system with poor availability for some and overpriced for others, etc, etc, etc.

High per capita energy consumption and also greenhouse gas production is not just an internal problem of the USA, you are screwing things up for everybody on the planet.

USA serves as an example of disastruous impacts of a lack of state regulation and investment in many fields.

You do realize that most likely more than half of the users here are from the USA ? So you have insulted the entire democratic way of life ? That applies to a lot more than the USA.

 

[Markfw]

It may be useful to note that one of the greatest achievement of the mankind - Apollo program - was a state ordered and financed project. It surelly brought a lot of innovation and development in a lot of science and industry fields.

Do you think that a consortium of private companies run for profit would ever achieve anything like that?

State orders and regulation can bring a lot of good.

I thought that this sentence "I do agree with requiring all buildings be up to ... " will go on with some thermal insulation requirement, but you just want people to be able to draw more energy safely, my bad...

Your first sentence is just wrong. NASA is a federally financed program, by a government that is run by elected officials chosen by the people, NOT "state ordered".

 

[NTMBK]

Ban crypto

 

[VirtualLarry]

Ban crypto

Ban ice cream, all that refridgeration can't be good for the ozone layer.




/s

 

[reb0rn]

maybe the OP should be banned for spreading FUD about energy, they are guilty for closing down clean nuke powers and now they troll us even more with insanity they should control what we do in our lives..........

just turned my mining rigs on max even with no profit to use more power and I do not care

 

[igor_kavinski]

Ban ice cream, all that refridgeration can't be good for the ozone layer.

Jeff Bezos will move the majority of our industrial refrigeration requirements to outer space. We might not be around by then. He probably will be. He can spend billions to transfer his consciousness to a new cloned body.

 

[fkoehler]

USA serves as an example of disastruous impacts of a lack of state regulation and investment in many fields.

USA is an example of why you are currently using what you are using to communicate the way you are.

I always find comments like these annoying, as the commenters rarely have made the lifestyle changes they espouse.
Even worse is their blase attitude in restricting other people's inherent rights.

 

[fkoehler]

Have you ever taken a basic economics course?

Companies pass these 'fees' onto the consumer.

Case in point, USA passed a Inflation Reduction Act which re-applied a $7500 electrical vehicle rebate to many manf's who'd exhausted their original 200K units sold eligibility.

Next week, Ford and GM raised their prices about the same amount.

We are in the middle of an inflationary period. Can you cite any product which has not increased in price, because its the Manf who has to account for a higher raw materials cost, taxes, etc?

No, because thats part and parcel of Production, and the consumer pays it.

125W for client CPUs. 250W for workstation/server CPUs. 300W for GPUs. Intel/AMD/Nvidia are the ones taxed for shipping parts that exceed these power draws. This will motivate them to think outside the box and come up with innovative solutions to increase performance within these power budgets.

 

[fkoehler]

Just realized AT does have an Ignore feature.

But, with the way things are going in Ukraine and wider environs, someone could conceivibly end up being dictated too in just such a fashion. Or have to decide upon a game of COD, or heating the house.

Never mind the lack of GPS/weather satellites. Oh and IIRC he is from a country that I love and lived in for a bit that was behind the Iron Curtain. Bet the US was helpful there too.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Companies pass these 'fees' onto the consumer.

Fees will be on the consumer parts exceeding the set limits. Fewer consumers would consider them as a result. That will result in low sales volume and at some point, manufacturers may decide to abandon those products altogether due to commercial non-feasibility. I'm proposing these limits only to prevent these companies from taking the easy way out to "compete" with each other. But it's just my opinion. No one has to be afraid of such a proposal. Fat chance something like this gets implemented. Instead, hopefully the market corrects itself through consumers deciding with their wallets and common sense.

 

[Kocicak]

There is a computing output to power consumption ratio. There may be some sweet spot frequency for each part, in which this ratio has maximum and the part performs with highest energy efficiency.

Instead of mandating fixed power limits, there is an option to mandate maximal frequency somehow related to the optimal frequency to avoid parts running too inefficiently and wasting energy just because some silly companies chose to compete by killing polar bears instead of innovating.

 

[Mopetar]

Intel wouldn't sell this capability if consumers didn't want it. Most don't, but there are some gamers that want the best possible performance, just like there are some race car drivers that want the fastest possible vehicle. Just like there are a lot of people who buy a K processor and never over clock it, most people won't run their CPU at 300W. Even the cooling to do that well adds hundreds of dollars to a build.

These parts will be used by a very small group of people. The additional amount of energy used over the lifetime of the machine pales in comparison to what they would use taking a flight to another country. If their high-end PC keeps them cooped up at home gaming their brain out, it will be better for the planet than a lot of other things they could be doing instead.

If they can afford a high-end gaming PC they can clearly afford a lot of other things, such as a large mound of tires to burn for their amusement and the purposes of teaching a lesson to idiots that want to try to dictate the economic activity of other people who haven't done the basic math on their poorly pondered diarrheic diatribe.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The current broad trend in all technology is moving toward increased efficiency in order to decrease energy consumption, which has various negative effects.

I just saw a rumour that an upcoming Intel CPU will have special performance mode allowing 350W energy draw. It also seems that upcoming AMD CPUs will have higher TDP than the current generation.

What is the sense of this in the point of view of the broad trend I mentioned in the beginning? State regulation in my opinion is sometimes a good thing and at this point it seems that power draw of consumer computers should be limited.

I think that limits of 50W for CPU, 50W for integrated GPU and 150W for discrete GPU would satisfy needs of most people.

Parts with higher power draw could be heavilly taxed so that they would be financially viable only for proffesionals who would use them productively.

I understand that some people may find my idea not beneficial for whatever reasons but what is happening now in this part of PC market is ridiculous and needs to stop.

(and production of virtual currencies should be banned completely as a huge energy waste, but that is a different topic.)

I remember an engineering text on quality control statistics. It borrowed a phrase from a 17th century poet: "Fleas on the backs of fleas . . . "

Are you sure you aren't fretting about something like this? Let us suppose a higher TDP and allowable power draw. For how long and for what?

We've cut our power bill by $150 -- July 2022 over July 2021 with the same weather. Tracking it from January, when my brother died and left us, about half of that seems to be the absence of his two TV sets and extra appliances -- one for gaming and the other for the football games with a refrigerator that is not necessary. The other half arises from implementing a general hibernation and sleep regime such that my server wakes up machines for backup and then returns them to their low-power state.

 

[Kocicak]

There is a computing output to power consumption ratio. There may be some sweet spot frequency for each part, in which this ratio has maximum and the part performs with highest energy efficiency.

Instead of mandating fixed power limits, there is an option to mandate maximal frequency somehow related to the optimal frequency to avoid parts running too inefficiently and wasting energy just because some silly companies chose to compete by killing polar bears instead of innovating.

The reviews of the new CPUs from both AMD and Intel are upcoming.

I wish some of the reviewers bothered to test these CPUs and actually made the graphs of the computing output to power consumption ratio dependent on frequency and see, how far each manufacturer pushes their processors.

It may be a little bit time consuming (finding the lowest stable voltage for each frequency), but the stability may be just briefly tested, for example with few runs of Cinebench, to spare some time and make the tests manageable.

 

[Mopetar]

TPU did some pretty extensive testing for Alder Lake to see how it performed at various power settings. They'll probably do something like it again.

 

[Kocicak]

It is nice to see that a power efficiency was a strong theme thorough the AMD Zen 4 presentation, with the new CPUs consuming up to 60 percent less power for the same computing output!

They also had some interesting info there with comparing performance of 5950X to 7950X at diffrerent TDPs, with the highest uplift at 65W, suggesting that the new TSMC process has probably a significantly good computing output to power consumption ratio at some moderate frequency (4 GHz?), which is probably a very good news for their server CPUs with a lot of those new compact cores.

I would REALLY like to see proper tests to see how efficiently the new CPUs can run at different frequencies!

 

[DrMrLordX]

AMD has had Eco mode for awhile (since Zen2, if not earlier). If you want to restrict PPT without enabling PBO/Curve Boost Optimizer and hand-tuning yourself, you can just set Eco mode and forget about it. It may not be optimal for all use cases, but it works.

 

[fkoehler]

Fees will be on the consumer parts exceeding the set limits.

Well, lets assume you are somewhere in Europe.
Your electricity and gas are probably up or going to be up to 50-100%, especially this winter.
This is basically a 'fee' on you as a consumer.
Please return then with how happy you are to beta test this theory.

 

[Leeea]

more efficient CPUs browsing/idling is still 50/60watts joke

only if you have badly misconfigured the system, or purchased exceptionally cheap parts and or power supply


Buy a kill-o-watt meter and see where yourself where the power consumption is

odds are, it will be your monitor.
which is why monitors have sleep states.

 

[lolek86]

only if you have badly misconfigured the system, or purchased exceptionally cheap parts and or power supply


Buy a kill-o-watt meter and see where yourself where the power consumption is

odds are, it will be your monitor.
which is why monitors have sleep states.

Yes, obviously i checked it by killo-watt meter


desktop idling - 50watts
browsing - about 60watts
above don't include monitor with 25watts on top off that.


It's only two core pc with 8gigs of ram 1 ssd and 1050ti. PSU is gold rated 400watts be quiet pure power11. It is certainly not misconfigured like enthusiasts 1000watts psu idling majority of the day at 5% load with about 70% efficiency.

Just check any recent cpu review with gpu mounted and you will see the same poor 50watss system power consumption. PITA situation comparing to mobile if you ask me. 12VO PSUs would bring good progress here but no, enthusiast are outraged because "reasons" and buying new atx3.0 is ok.

 

[In2Photos]

Yes, obviously i checked it by killo-watt meter


desktop idling - 50watts
browsing - about 60watts
above don't include monitor with 25watts on top off that.


It's only two core pc with 8gigs of ram 1 ssd and 1050ti. PSU is gold rated 400watts be quiet pure power11. It is certainly not misconfigured like enthusiasts 1000watts psu idling majority of the day at 5% load with about 70% efficiency.

Just check any recent cpu review with gpu mounted and you will see the same poor 50watss system power consumption. PITA situation comparing to mobile if you ask me. 12VO PSUs would bring good progress here but no, enthusiast are outraged because "reasons" and buying new atx3.0 is ok.

Why do you have a 1050ti for internet browsing?

 

[lolek86]

Little gaming and 4k videos here and there but it could be worse with big gpu and 800watts PSU, almost comically. Electricity savings adding up from not browsing on such machine would buy me new mobile phone