• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

New case fans & fan hub

Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,403
136
Yesterday I got a little over excited and ordered a new power supply for an upcoming build and new case fans. I ordered 4 PWM Be Quiet silent wing fans.
Figured I’d replace my getting noisy antec case fans.
However I’m not doing full build yet.
If I wanted to add the PWM fans to my current case would I need some sort of fan controller?
I assume I’ll need a fan hub for that many PWM fans regardless.
Any suggestions on something to allow the fan speeds be controlled on a mostly automatic schedule?
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,499
374
126
The details depend on what mobo you have (and hence, the capabilities of its SYS_FAN headers). Just as importantly, on those details for whatever NEW mobo you plan, IF you are changing. One definite point: you do NOT need a third-part fan controller. The headers on your mobo certainly can do automatic control of fan speeds based on a temperature sensor on the mobo, whereas there are virtually NO third-party fan controllers that can do that. So a fan HUB is the right way, but see below for some notes.

First, as background, automatic control of case ventilation fans (same basics for the CPU cooling system, too) actually is a TEMPERATURE control system. That is, the focus of the control loop is to keep the TEMPERATURE on a specified target, and the method of achieving this is to manipulate the speed of the case fans to do whatever air flow it takes to meet that goal. For this purpose the mobo has a temperature sensor built in at a spot the mobo makers deem is the most important to monitor. The control loop has some pre-programmed items called loop tuning parameters that include the target (as decided by the mobo maker) for that sensor, loop gain and damping, and high temp limit for warnings of real trouble. For each SYS_FAN or CHA_FAN header on the mobo the configuration can be adjusted separately, and options normally include the automatic control system (usually called "Standard" or "Normal"), a fixed constant full fan speed setting, a fixed reduced fan speed setting, and a "Manual" option under which you can specify your own fan "curve" of what speed to run fans for particular measured temperatures. Another common configuration option for any 4-pin header is the control Mode, which is the type of signals the header sends out to its fan. This may be: the older Voltage Control Mode (aka DC Mode) in which the voltage supplpied on Pin #2 varies from 12 VDC (full speed) to 5 VDC (minimum without stalling the fan) and there is no signal on Pin #4; PWM Mode, in which the voltage on Pin #2 is always 12 VDC, and the PWM signal sent out on Pin #4 is used by a special chip inside the new-type 4-pin fan to modify current flow from that power supply through the motor windings; or Auto, in which the header should automatically sense the type of fan connected to it and set its Mode by itself. (Note that, since the older Voltage Control Mode CAN control a 4-pin fan, although not quite as well from a technical perspective, the "Auto" Mode can be "faked" by making the fan header always use only the Voltage Control Mode.) The ONLY Mode that can control an older 3-pin fan is Voltage Control Mode; such a fan given the PWM Mode signals will always run full speed.

Some SYS_FAN or CHA_FAN headers also allow you to choose alternative temperature sensors to guide them in case you wish to customize what one header is used for. The alternative choices may include the internal CPU temperaure (suitable IF this header is controlling a fan actually involved in CPU cooling, such as radiator fans in some systems), or several extra sensors associated with particular key components of the mobo such as the North Bridge chip or the Voltage Reagulator section. These are usful IF you are arranging one fan to cool that specific area of the mobo, as opposed to general case ventialtion.

Note that there are almost NO mobos that attempt to control cooling of an added Graphics Card, mainly because there is no "standard" way to send a temperature signal from that card to the mobo, and no "standard" set of cooling control loop tuning parameters. Graphic card cooling control is left to the card itself. Similarly, no mobo controls cooling of the PSU unit; that is done by the PSU itsef.

Three small additional notes FYI: the header counts the fan's speed signal (a series of 5 VDC pulses, 2 per revolution) sent back to it on Pin #3, but it cannot deal with more than one such signal. So any proper Splitter or Hub will send back only ONE of its fan's speeds and ignore the others so that you will never "see" those others. This has NO impact on speed control because the header really does not care what the speed is - it is focussed on temperature. However, the header has a second separate function: monitoring the speed signal for fan FAILURE (either no speed signal, or a signal below a set minimum value). Upon failure it will send out a warning so you know to take care of the problem. So, when using a Splitter or Hub, you must ensure that one of the fans IS plugged into the only output that can send its fan's speed signal back to the header. Moreover, since the speed signals of all the "other" fans are NOT sent back, those fans cannot be monitored by the mobo header for failure, so YOU need to check them from time to time to verify they are still working.

The CPU_FAN header (and sometimes related ones like CPU_OPT) do the same thing basically, but its temperature sensor always is only the one built into the CPU chip and fed out on one of its pins to the mobo. Further, its actions in the event of fan FAILURE on some mobos are more drastic. If the CPU fan fails, it will issue an immediate warning and may, after a short time, shut down the system completely to prevent overheating even without waiting for the chip's internal sensor to show a high temperature. On such mobos, some also will refuse to start up at all if the CPU_FAN header gets no good speed signal right away. So you must always ensure that the correct item is plugged into the CPU_FAN header so it gets a valid speed signal. For fans on a CPU air cooler that means one of the fans. For an AIO liquod cooling sytem, I believe the right item to plug into the CPU_FAN header often is the PUMP, because its failure will cause overheating very quickly. But if you have a CPU_OPT or PUMP header that does the same failure montoring job, you can use that for the pump and use the CPU_FAN header for the radiator fans.

Splitters and Hubs get very confusing on many websites, in my opinion, becasue the two terms often are misused. I prefer to classify them accordong to eletrical function, rather than by appearance. A SPLITTER is a simple device that connects two or more fans in parallel to the signals from the mobo header, so that all fans share the same information and ALL of the power for the fans comes from the header's Pin #2. There is a limit (normally) of max 1.0 A total current to all fans on this header, so the max current draw spec for every fan connected must be found to ensure the header does not get overloaded. A SPLITTER has only two types of "arms": one input cable ending in a female (with holes) connector that plugs into the mobo header, and two or more male (with pins) outputs for the fans. Among these, one common way to limit the speed signal sent back to the mobo header is to omit Pin #3 on all outputs except one. A SPLITTER may appear to be a group of cable "arms" or a small printed circuit board with male headers; this latter form needs to be mounted securely so that it does not ground out to sopmething by moving randomly. Becasue of the similarity of physical and electrical details of the 3- and 4-pin fan systems, a 4-pin Spltter can work for both types of fans - a 3-pin fan plugged into one of the Splitter's outputs simply will not connect to Pin #4.

A HUB is a different type of device. It does connect the mobo's signals to all its fans in parallel EXCEPT for the power supply line. What makes a Hub different is that it gets power for all its fans from a direct connection to a PSU output (either SATA or 4-pin Molex) and takes no power from the mobo header. Thus it avoids the power limit of the header. That provides to all outputs the fixed +12 VDC on Pin #2 required by a PWM Mode fan signal set. Then the Hub shares the header's PWM signal on Pin #4 to all fans and this does not overload the header. BUT this means that control of the fans' speeds relies entirely on their ability to use the PWM signal to control their own speeds. That is, the Hub works ONLY if connected to a mobo header that really does use PWM Mode and suppply that signal, AND ONLY with 4-pin fans that have the chip to use that signal. (There are a very few Hubs that do thigs differently and "convert" from a 4-pin PWM system input to 3-pin Voltage Control system output that can control both 3-pin and 4-pin fans.) A HUB has the two types of "arms" a Splitter does, PLUS a third "arm" that must plug into a PSU power output, so that's how to distinguish between them.

With that explanation, how to choose? IF you have any 3-pin fans, their speed can ONLY be controlled using the older Voltage Control Mode (aka DC Mode), so they MUST be connected to a header using that Mode. The best way to do this is to use a Splitter and abide by the 1.0 A max current limit. (The unusual "converting" type of Hub is another option.) IF all your fans are of the 4-pin PWM type AND you are confident the mobo fan header actually is using PWM Mode (remeber the "fake" auto Mode configuration?), then use a Hub (often able to handle many fans) that avoids the header's current limit. And that's another reason why you do NOT need a third-party fan contrller, OP. Most (not all) such controllers use only the older Voltage Control Mode which can control the speed of both fan types, but does NOT supply the PWM singal, and therefore cannot be used with a Hub.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,403
136
^^^Wow thank you for such a complete response^^^
I plan on building a new Ryzen system, no motherboard selected yet
Currently sporting a P5Q Deluxe, I don’t have to change the fans but I figured since I have them coming I may as well try them out.
Also thank you for the hub vs splitter explanation, simple & easy to understand.
I was doing some research on fan hubs and for such a simple part it gets very confusing.
I saw one from Phantex that recommended connecting the fan hub to the cpu fan port for best control. Basically the hub connected to the cpu power then the cpu fan connected to the hub. Does this sound like a reasonable design? Seems smart to have all fans run at the same level as the cpu fan.

I’ll study up on what you wrote when I can look at it on a more proper screen

@Paperdoc
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,403
136
Appears my current motherboard only has one 4 pin fan connector that’s for the CPU.

ZM0qkhd.png
 

ClockHound

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,111
219
106
^^^Wow thank you for such a complete response^^^
I plan on building a new Ryzen system, no motherboard selected yet
Currently sporting a P5Q Deluxe, I don’t have to change the fans but I figured since I have them coming I may as well try them out.
Also thank you for the hub vs splitter explanation, simple & easy to understand.
I was doing some research on fan hubs and for such a simple part it gets very confusing.
I saw one from Phantex that recommended connecting the fan hub to the cpu fan port for best control. Basically the hub connected to the cpu power then the cpu fan connected to the hub. Does this sound like a reasonable design? Seems smart to have all fans run at the same level as the cpu fan.

I’ll study up on what you wrote when I can look at it on a more proper screen

@Paperdoc

Was it this Phantek hub: http://www.phanteks.com/PH-PWHUB.html

If so, then it uses PWM to control 3pin fans. Which isn't what you want to control the 4 PWM Be Quiet fans.

With PWM fans want a PWM hub as noted by Paperdoc.

I've used the Silverstone CPF04 hub on a few builds and can recommend it.
https://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=526&area=en

The Swiftech PWM hub is good as well: http://www.swiftech.com/8-WayPWMsplitter-sata.aspx
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,499
374
126
Thanks for those details, OP. Let me comment on a couple of things about your current mobo, then on to your future plans.

Your mobo has one CPU_FAN header with 4 pins, and all others have 3 pins. To use the new PWM Mode for fan control REQUIRES 4 pins - the PWM signal is on Pin #4. So all of your CHA_FAN headers MUST be the older type that can only use Voltage Control Mode. That is necessary to control older fans and it also CAN control the new PWM fans, but technically that is not the ideal way. More to the point of your current interest, you can NOT use a HUB with those headers. All Hubs require the PWM signal to work, and none of your CHA_FAN headers can supply that. As a temporary measure IF you wish, you CAN use new 4-pin fans grouped together on the CHA_FAN headers if you use SPLITTERS because they simply connect their fans to the header pins in parallel, but remember the current limit on each header.

Your mobo also has a PWR_FAN header which is no longer common. It has a very specific purpose. A decade ago and more, many PSU's came with a set of three wires ending in a 3-pin female fan connector that you were supposed to plug into a mobo PWR_FAN header if you have one. Its sole purpose was to allow the fan inside the CPU to send its speed signal (using Pin #3) to the mobo for monitoring. However, this mobo header has NO ability to control fan speed - if the PSU's fan is controlled, that is done entirely within the PSU itself. But as an extension of that design, many mobo makers also connected the first two pins of that PWR_FAN header to the Ground and +12 VDC lines, so that IF you choose to, you can use it as an UN-controlled fan header instead of its original intention.

In my long post above I mentioned that there are a very few Hubs that "convert" from PWM Mode to Voltage Control Mode, and this can control both 3- and 4-pin fans. The one most commonly sold that way it the Phanteks PWM Hub you ask about, and it is very handy when you have a mis-match situation between fans and headers. Its instructions tell you to connect it the the CPU_FAN header, then connect the actual CPU cooler to the white Port #1 of the Hub, and other fans to other ports. That is for a particular reason, and your current mobo is a good example. Some mobos have a 4-pin header using the new PWM Mode ONLY for the CPU_FAN header. Some have all their headers using 4 pins, BUT that does NOT guarantee that they use PWM Mode. On the other hand, this Hub like all others MUST have the PWM signal from its host header. So their instructions are intended to help you be SURE the Hub gets that PWM signal from the one header that very commonly DOES (or at least, can) use PWM Mode. This has a slightly unfortunate impact: that makes all the fans in your system, including the case ventilation fans, dependent on the internal temperature sensor of the CPU chip, but that's a pretty tolerable compromise. On newer mobos it is now common that most CHA_FAN or SYS_FAN headers can use either Mode for control, so the Phanteks instructions are not needed. With current designs you can leave the CPU_FAN header to control only the CPU cooler, and connect the Phanteks Hub to a CHA_FAN header and then make sure in BIOS Setup that this header is configured to use PWM Mode. In that use, the white Port #1 does NOT need to be used for a CPU cooler. Its special status is simply that it is the only output port that does send its fan's speed signal back to the mobo. When done this way, the Phanteks Hub gets its control signal from a header guided by the temperature sensor on the mobo, rather than the one inside the CPU chip.

ClockHound's comments above are correct. For your future plans involving a new mobo (which will have many PWM-using fan headers) and only 4-pin fans, you really should use a "regular" fan Hub design, not the Phantlks unit that converts. That is, IF you need a Hub at all. The main use of a Hub is to connect MANY fans to a single header without overloading it. But with a modest number of case fans (say, 3 to 6) and several mobo fan headers, often you can do the job with a few Splitters, connecting 2 or 3 fans per header.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,403
136
@Paperdoc @ClockHound

Thank you guys, project is becoming more involved than I anticipated, I was looking to install the new fans because they we on “sale” and the old antec fans have become noisy.
I’m definitely installing the new power supply to make sure it works.
Can I safely plug the be quiet fans into the 3 port fan headers and just accept they will run at full speed or whatever speed the 3 pin connector provides?
Not looking for a long term solutions, looking for a 2-3 month solution regarding my old machine.
I have another case I *may* put the Q9650 into and test it out as a game server but I am not confident it will be powerful enough, this will be a winter nerd project with little purpose it would be kept in a different room noise would not be a concern.
 

ClockHound

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,111
219
106
Yes, you can run the fancy PWM fans as lowly 3 pin voltage-controlled fans for now.

Of course, you'll have to give them a pulsing pep talk later to modulate to their dignity. ;-)
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,403
136
Yes, you can run the fancy PWM fans as lowly 3 pin voltage-controlled fans for now.

Of course, you'll have to give them a pulsing pep talk later to modulate to their dignity. ;-)

Well of course, I don't want my happy Be Quiet! fans to become sad.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,403
136
They should arrive Tuesday.
I’ll post a very unscientific video to hopefully show how much more quiet the new fans are if you guys are interested.
I’ll run my phones video recorder from the desk which is about 6-8” away, it will be real simple to hold it in the same place.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,862
17,403
136
So getting a video was problematic however I did load a decibel app.

How it was with 3 antec 120no tri cool fans at medium & Corsair HX620

2XOY39r.jpg


Here it is with 3 120mm be quiet silent wings & seasonic gold plus

**I broke my case door I suspect it’s quieter with the door on

Hovers 45-47

Mcwmvv7.png