New cars FORCED to use synthetic oil???

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by redgtxdi, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Jimzz

    Jimzz Diamond Member

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    Won't hurt/help any more than the 5w20 you have now. You could run 5w30 as well.

    The TRUE differance is not that big. Look at the CAS numbers of the oil to see the true weight.
     
  2. ch33zw1z

    ch33zw1z Lifer

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    Thanks, I'll just keep putting the same in.
     
  3. LTC8K6

    LTC8K6 Lifer

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    Well, 0W-20 and 5W-20 would be the same "weight" in a warmed up engine.

    They are only different "weights" when they are cold, right?

    I think they would both drain pretty much the same from a warm engine, so it's probably the cold flow the mfgs are looking for with 0W oils.

    In winter in a cold area, I would definitely be using the 0W oil if the mfg spec'd it for the engine all the time.

    In the summer, I wouldn't be so concerned.

    This is true for me even though I know the "weights" over all aren't that different.
     
    #53 LTC8K6, Nov 29, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  4. Ferzerp

    Ferzerp Diamond Member

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    Yes. I fail at reading comprehension and 2007 was the first year in the post so that's what I looked up.
     
  5. Throckmorton

    Throckmorton Lifer

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    I looked up the actual viscosity numbers and 30 is over 50% more viscous than 20... it's a huge difference. I have no idea what CAS is- this is what I'm going by:

    http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

    20 can be cSt 5.6 to 9.3
    30 can be cSt 9.3 to 12.5
    40 can be cSt 12.5 to 16.3
     
    #55 Throckmorton, Nov 29, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  6. Jimzz

    Jimzz Diamond Member

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    Sorry meant the cSt number, have CAS on something else.

    The top is more for higher temp protection but you can see that you can have a 20weight and be 9.1 and have a 30 weight and be at 9.5, very small difference. I do agree that the difference COULD be bigger but look at the cst numbers of oils on the shelf and you can see most 20’s are in the higher spec and most 30’s are in the lower spec. I personally prefer 5w30 as you can find it anywhere and it should be able to handle a higher oil temp while still flowing well when cold.


    In the persons case before the 5w30 and 5w20 should flow close when cold and for his climate that is more important. The 30 for me is just easier to get and should protect better at higher temps.
     
  7. Jimzz

    Jimzz Diamond Member

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    Here is a good example of why the numbers on the bottle may not tell the whole story...

    Mobil....5w20 has a cSt at 40°C - 47.9 and cSt at 100°C - 8.4

    Castrol.5w20 has a cSt at 40°C - 56.1 and cSt at 100°C - 9.1

    2 oils at the same "weight" yet their true viscosity has a 10 point differance between them at 40°C and over 1/2 a point at 100°C.


    Yet even though they vary greatly both will work fine as will 5w30 and even 10w30 in most cases. Remember it was not that long ago when cars came with straight 30weight.

    In the end don't worry so much about the differance between Xw20 and 5w30 as much as is the oil level good and changing it on time.

    I think it was edmunds that ran a GM car to 13,000miles to see if the oil indcator worked and even at 13k the oil still had life in it based on a oil test.
     
  8. LTC8K6

    LTC8K6 Lifer

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    Just a reminder that if your engine is under warranty, you must use the mfg specified weight oil, and follow the mfg OCI, despite the facts of the oil "weights" we have seen posted here.
     
  9. Jimzz

    Jimzz Diamond Member

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    Thats not true either UNLESS the the oil was what caused the damage. If you run straight 60weight and live up north then yea you might have issues. But using 5w30 over a 5w20 is not going to cause oil issues.

    They can't void your warranty for something that was not the cause of the problem.
     
  10. Ferzerp

    Ferzerp Diamond Member

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    That has to do with aftermarket parts, or differing oil brands, etc.

    If you deviate from the required maintenance (and using oil that doesn't meet the stated specifications) all bets are off.

    Magnuson-Moss doesn't mean you get to ignore the fluid specifications. If you're running the wrong oil, and your engine fails in some way, you're asking for trouble.
     
  11. phucheneh

    phucheneh Diamond Member

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    The only time the manufacturer cares about your oil change records is when, as mentioned, the problem is directly oil-related. This basically means sludge. Within a normal 36k (or 50k) warranty, the only problem likely to be seen is the clogging of small passages- typically those used for hydraulic control of VVT parts. And you've REALLY gotta be negligent.

    Even then, there's nothing that says you have to produce shop records. Said records may exonerate someone with noticeable sludging in their engine, but the absence of them is not directly damning. I would imagine most here take good enough care of their car that you're not going to find black gunk in the engine inside of 50k miles, and again, that's what is going to be judged (by the tech). I doubt any manufacturer has interest in sampling and analyzing your oil to deny a warranty claim.

    Denied claims affect the dealer, anyhow. Not you. So yeah, a shady dealer might give you shit to try and protect themselves...in which case, I'd contact the manufacturer (and BBB and whoever else) and complain. They'll probably get it taken care of for you.

    Yeah, I know. Circular logic. But it's what I've consistently seen.
     
  12. Jimzz

    Jimzz Diamond Member

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    No, that is also false. Look in the owners manual it does not say you MUST use 0w20, it says "Recommended viscosity". You can run 20w50 if you like. As long as the oil is not the cause of the problem your warranty is still good.

    EDIT

    Just re-read a couple toyota manuals and the only thing required is the oil meets
    "Oil grade: ILSAC multigrade engine oil"
    So even a 20w50 meets that(again please don't use 20w50 in a new car). Its only "Recommended" you use 0w20.
     
    #62 Jimzz, Nov 29, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  13. A5

    A5 Diamond Member

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    All I can add to this is that the SkyActiv Mazdas require 0W-20 synthetic as well. Based on what these places want for a synthetic oil change, I might start doing it myself and switch my other car over to synthetic, too.
     
  14. redgtxdi

    redgtxdi Diamond Member

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    Actually, as I've understood MM cases to proceed (at least here in Cali), they typically put the burden of proof on the manufacturer when/if a failure arises.

    The idea being that if someone (Amsoil, for example) were to provide evidence that their synthetic provides for a xx,000 mile interval change and that their oil is no less viscously or thermally compromised at x,000 miles than at xx,000 miles, Toyota would have to provide evidence to the contrary. Or make something up, at least.

    One could easily make a case that if the failure specifically points to a mechanical and not oil related failure, then you could abuse the mfgr requirements by a landslide and still come out the winner or at least find the mfgr at fault, regardless.

    What I want to know is, in my case, how can Toyota say that the same truck we had 5 years ago (literally, same friggin everything) MUST use a 0W-20 synthetic oil when 5W-30 dino was sufficient for the same vehicle, same motor in the same dress???
     
  15. bruceb

    bruceb Diamond Member

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    On newer cars, with closer internal engine clearances, it is highly advised to stick with the suggested weight motor oil or any of those listed in the owner's manual as useable in your engine and weather temperature part of the country. Using a heavier oil, it may not flow properly to all parts, especially when the engine is new or cold. A heavier oil may also cause sludge build up in the engine.
     
  16. redgtxdi

    redgtxdi Diamond Member

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    And while I agree tolerances are tighter, synth is typically better, etc.....I just can't imagine a 5W-20 conventional changed at 5,000 mile intervals would not net nearly the same results. (case in point, my '11 Venza can use 0W-20 synth of 5W-20 dino.)

    I just don't think the issue should be *forced* on the consumer.

    Example:

    I just made the analogy to a friend of a scenario where a single-mom turns in her 2007 2.7L Taco and picks up a '13. (Call her a truck fan). She barely gets by as is, but now finds out she's at $80 for an oil change vs previous $30 oil changes for, basically, the exact same truck, just newer. Think it was ever discussed at the bargaining table when buying the truck? (methinks not)

    Now, I don't live my life where this would be a deal breaker, but I know folks who do.
     
    #66 redgtxdi, Nov 29, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  17. LTC8K6

    LTC8K6 Lifer

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    Yeah, I don't understand the concept of not following the simple recommendation of the proper weight oil. Lots of testing and engineering went into the decision on oil weight.

    Besides, as I said earlier, cheaper 0W-20 blends are available, and they should meet the requirements.

    http://www.phillips66lubricants.com/documents/76/engine_oil/76 Super Syn Blend MO TDS Web.pdf

    http://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-Motor-Oils__08798-90XX.aspx
     
    #67 LTC8K6, Nov 29, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  18. LTC8K6

    LTC8K6 Lifer

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    Also, it's only $25 for the 5qt jug of M1 at Wally World.
    They often have Castrol Syn Blend 0W-20 as well in the jug.
     
    #68 LTC8K6, Nov 29, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  19. phucheneh

    phucheneh Diamond Member

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    It really didn't.

    Let's use Ford as an example. AFAIK, every new gasoline Ford engine says 5w20 on the cap. Do you really think everything from...an I4 in a hybrid, to multiple NA I4's, to a turbo I4, to multiple V6's, to multiple V8's...is engineered to make sure 5w20 is the optimal oil in all conditions? I would have to give a big 'no' to that.

    Especially when they've done the exact same thing the OP is talking about- continuing to make the exact same engine that used to specify one weight (5w30 in this case), and now saying it's supposed to have another (5w20).

    My personal belief is that the major changeover to 5w20 and 0w20 by many manufacturers is likely nothing but an attempt to put maybe one extra mile per gallon on the window sticker.

    Don't let reality smack you too hard when I say this, but you should probably know: the car manufacturer does not give two fucks what happens to your engine after it's out of warranty. Unless they're looking at a PR disaster from myriad engine failures, there is no reason for them to care. You have to stop thinking like a person and think like a corporation. Does it increase the positive dollar amount on this piece of paper? No? Okay, fucks will not be given.

    I'm not saying these thinner oils are necessarily worse for your engine- just that I highly doubt that they are being recommended as the default oil because of copious engine redesigning.

    [edit: rambling starts here, sorry]

    However...again, personal opinion; to my knowledge, no studies for or against...I do think that yes, these oils are inferior in hot climates. If my car is sitting baking in the 100* sun all day, I do not want to start it 'cold' at the end of the day with a damn zero weight oil. Someone mentioned that any weight would have drained back into the pan over an eight hour period. This is only sort of right. Yeah, the oiling system is 'empty' and will have to build pressure...but during that brief moment, I think I'd rather have more than the residue of pisswater oil on critical engine parts.

    I am aware that my opinions are colored by my personal experiences. With a lot of engine building in my past, I'm fine with that; no one has to agree. But I think most can acknowledge the validity of one simple question: Who the hell uses 0w20 as assembly lube when putting a short block together? At worst, I would use some straight 30 or an otherwise thick oil that I knew would cling to the bearings and help provide a film of protection until proper oil pressure is built.

    Ideally, I use proper assembly lube...kind of a light synthetic grease. It's very low-drag but will remain wherever you put it until it is washed away by oil. Not quite sure how that would scientifically be described. I guess technically the actual viscosity would be considered low- but it doesn't drain/pool like oil. AFAIK factory engines don't use anything special- but I believe they have the tools to properly prime them before the first start. Unless you've got something with an accessible oil pump drive (like the cam/distributor driven shaft on old V8's), the small-scale rebuilder typically won't have an easy way to prime, other than during assembly. That just leads to other relevent (at least I think so) questions...do the typical 'pack the oil pump with grease' method, or rely on a thin oil to get quickly pressurized and delivered? I pick grease.

    I know people will say it's a shit comparison, I know. Essentially that there's not enough difference between the oils to say that one provides better residual protecton...but then I'd ask why their argument for the thinner oil is any more valid than mine. :p

    It's like haggling over a new car price and saying 'five bucks less or I'll walk!' Both sides would use the 'come on, it's just five bucks' argument...neither would be more 'right.'

    [/ramble]
     
  20. Throckmorton

    Throckmorton Lifer

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    I've always wondered about this, but no article on the topic ever mentions residual oil. Common sense tells you that a more viscous oil will result in more residue after the car has been parked overnight which would provide more protection, but "experts" act like all that matters is how well the oil flows at startup.


    Knowing that Jeep recommends different viscosities for different countries makes it really obvious to me that their recommendations are not based on what is best for the engine.
     
  21. redgtxdi

    redgtxdi Diamond Member

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    Well, one of the things I used to do back in my drag racing days to pick good oil was to let a motor sit for a couple days after races and then pull the top end apart and see if there was any oil there. Hands down, Kendal (SAE 30 back then) was always more present than even the 2nd best I found (Castrol). Now, I'm talking 20 years ago, but still there were oils that were better at residual clinging than others and the bearings often told the story.

    And in my case, I'm still aghast at the notion that the same exact motor (Toyota 2TR-FE 2.7L) went from working just fine on 5W-30 to now requiring-----ONLY----- 0W-20 which is also -----ONLY---- available as a synthetic, with the ever so slight concession that 5W-20 may be used so long as the next change is back to 0W-20!!!!!!

    That, to me, is a load of oppressive crap!!!
     
  22. Ferzerp

    Ferzerp Diamond Member

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    I do know for a fact that the oil requirement can be not just a technical reason.

    When Chrysler swapped from Mobil 1 to Penzoil, magically, some of the suggested weights changed, because Penzoil didn't have them.

    So yeah, sometimes the bean counters do get involved, but still, for less than a penny a mile, I'd really not take the risk.
     
    #72 Ferzerp, Nov 29, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  23. disappoint

    disappoint Diamond Member

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    nvm
     
    #73 disappoint, Nov 29, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  24. SparkyJJO

    SparkyJJO Lifer

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    It had a lack for a while leading to it getting dry/cracked. Now it has oil on it again yes but that won't fix a cracked seal.

    That said, I converted my vehicles over to synthetic and have had no ill side effects. The Trailblazer actually uses less oil now since I did that. Before it used about a quart, then the first synthetic change it went through almost 2 but slowed way down after that and might use half a quart between changes.
     
  25. phucheneh

    phucheneh Diamond Member

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    Someone actually recommends Pennzoil? I'm assuming this is fairly recent? That or Mobil1 has been around a lot longer than I thought.

    I just don't feel like I can trust Pennzoil ever since they got in bed with Fram and Jiffylube. Fram being the maker of their branded filters, and IIRC Jiffylube advertising that they use their products exclusively. I now lump them in with, like, 'Super-tech' oil from Walmart or similar.

    Might seem odd that I'm picky about brand and not weight...truth is I'm picky about all of it, I just prefer to lean torward the heavy side with oil weights. Within reason. I use 10w40 on older engines. Even 20w50 if it's really an old clunker (usually just worn-out pushrod V8's), though not in winter.

    I could do a mildly scientific test by just coating some old scrap bearings with different weights, putting them in a sealed container and...observing, basically. But even with a greater mass and/or volume (...does viscosity correlate with density?) of the thicker oil, you can't say as a fact that it would provide better protection. I know I've heard some old guys argue that all you need when assembling an engine is 'something slick' and that the type of oil/grease doesn't really make a difference. Others, of course, will refuse to use anything other than STP brand molasses. Damn that shit is nasty to deal with.