New Canon DSLRs!! SL1 | T5i

AkumaX

Lifer
Apr 20, 2000
12,643
3
81
http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/21/4...bel-sl1-the-worlds-smallest-and-lightest-dslr

SL1 - 'the world's smallest and lightest DSLR'
-- haha, when i saw that kit lens, i thought it was the 18-135mm, but it was the 18-55mm! :D
-- essentially a T4i w/ 1 cross-type point. can still use STM for continuous AF for video. no flip screen (still touch screen)

T5i = T4i w/ improved dial + real time instagram filters. yay?
-- also introduces the 18-55 IS STM, interesting...
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
They made "the most compact" SLR but it's still an SLR... which means wasted space. Can anyone explain why cameras still have flapping mirrors? These things already have phase detect things built onto their sensors don't they? Is it just to satisfy troglodytes who enjoy peering through a dark tunnel with partial frame coverage?
 
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Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
136
They made "the most compact" SLR but it's still an SLR... which means wasted space. Can anyone explain why cameras still have flapping mirrors? These things already have phase detect things built onto their sensors don't they? Is it just to satisfy troglodytes who enjoy peering through a dark tunnel with partial frame coverage?

I will take a real viewfinder over the horrible LCD's that are used any day. If they decide to put retina class LCD's on the backs, then maybe. But currently its nearly impossible to get a good manual focus using the LCD.
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
0
0
They made "the most compact" SLR but it's still an SLR... which means wasted space. Can anyone explain why cameras still have flapping mirrors? These things already have phase detect things built onto their sensors don't they? Is it just to satisfy troglodytes who enjoy peering through a dark tunnel with partial frame coverage?

It's because Optical Viewfinders are Boss, even on DX at 95% coverage.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
I will take a real viewfinder over the horrible LCD's that are used any day. If they decide to put retina class LCD's on the backs, then maybe. But currently its nearly impossible to get a good manual focus using the LCD.

I'm not talking about LCDs, but EVFs. Have you tried a Sony with an EVF? The OLED ones are better than optical
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,771
24,117
136
meh. the whole reason i sold all my canon gear was to get a smaller system, and that includes the lenses. this is half-assed stuff canon. learn from MFT, they are doing it right.

i like the EVF on the OM-D, easy to focus and some of the info you can get on there like live shadow/highlights is excellent.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
They made "the most compact" SLR but it's still an SLR... which means wasted space. Can anyone explain why cameras still have flapping mirrors? These things already have phase detect things built onto their sensors don't they? Is it just to satisfy troglodytes who enjoy peering through a dark tunnel with partial frame coverage?

Only Nikon has managed to get PDAF-on-sensor working well. Everyone else's hybrid AF hasn't been that great and without it you will have a hard time tracking small, fast-moving objects via AF alone. MFT doesn't even have PDAF at all though their CDAF is faster than everyone else's CDAF.

Further, and this is a key one for me, even if you have DSLR-speed PDAF, if the EVF lags, then you will have a hard time with composition. Optical viewfinders do not lag like EVFs do. See, e.g., the bird half out of the frame in this: http://www.naturalexposures.com/cor...nics-newest-micro-four-thirds-camera-the-gh3/

DSLRs also give you the highest bang for the buck if you value viewfinders, which often don't come with mirrorless cams or if they do, only on much more expensive cameras that can be higher priced than comparable DSLRs.

I've owned compacts, premium compacts, MFT, and DSLRs, and there is a reason why I went back to compact + DSLR. A MFT is a "tweener" that fits neither here nor there and doesn't give you the DOF ability that DSLRs have *and* have the problems above. NEX has the DOF ability but lenses are almost as big as DSLR lenses past wideangles, and they also have the problems above. That said, if you could afford only ONE camera system beyond your phone, Nikon 1 is a good compromise. MFT too, if you don't take many action shots. But if you have the money, imho, a RX100 or LX7 (no matter how small, mirrorless system cameras will never be as small as the smaller compact premium cameras like the RX100, which is truly pocketable even in tight jeans) paired with a DSLR (for action shots and bokeh) is the way to go if you shoot action sometimes. Try doing that on a mirrorless other than the Nikon V-series, and you will pay through the nose for the privilege of having the newer, less laggy viewfinders.

P.S. Stop trolling and implying others are troglodytes. No need to insult others who disagree with you.

meh. the whole reason i sold all my canon gear was to get a smaller system, and that includes the lenses. this is half-assed stuff canon. learn from MFT, they are doing it right.

i like the EVF on the OM-D, easy to focus and some of the info you can get on there like live shadow/highlights is excellent.

I bought into MFT very heavily, getting a lot of lenses including the highest-end ones available for their focal lengths, and at the end of the day it still wasn't pocketable, so I still had to use a camera bag. Coat pockets don't count, because it gets hot in the summertime where I live. So I thought... what the hell is the point of "miniaturizing" if I still have to use a bag?

So I sold all my MFT gear for a RX100 and am happy with that decision. The RX100 looks like a compact and doesn't attract the attention... mirrorless system cameras can't say the same unless you stick to their smallest camera/lens combos.

The DSLR is for situations where I won't be hoofing it up a mountainside, in which case I would be ok with DSLR weight. DSLR lenses tend to be more reasonably priced too, like the cheap 50/1.8's compared to Sony's 50/1.8. Sure you get OSS with Sony's 50 but it costs like three times Canon's and about twice Nikon's (especially if you get the Nikon on sale or used). And OSS isn't even that important if you plan to use it as a portrait lens or other situations where things are moving, as you need to jack up the shutter speed ANYWAY to freeze motion. And for MFT sure you can get the 20/1.7 but it's slower focusing and due to sensor size difference it isn't as fast for bokeh reasons and ISO... and it also costs like $300. The 25/1.4 is better and a fairer comparison... but it's $500. All up and down the line you see this repeat. The Oly 9-18 is ridiculously small and light... a real boon over DSLR wideangle zooms. But it also costs almost $700 and gives you basically the same performance as a Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6 lens which can be found new for under $400. Etc. etc. etc. all up and down the line, you see what happens when you don't have Sigma/Tamron giving price pressure.

Truth be told, MFT lenses are way overpriced. Sigma was able to make lenses for NEX/MFT for a lot cheaper. But Pany/Oly are losing tons of money and have insufficient scale to really bring down prices for their lenses. Oly in particular is looking unhealthy and if I went MFT again I wouldn't want to go Pany due to their lack of IBIS... so Oly's health is a concern. CaNikony aren't going anywhere, though, so I'd feel safer investing $$$$ into their lens mounts. CaNikon in particular have a lot of third-party options that are cheap and good... that's not nearly as true for the mirrorless mounts (without adapter). I also don't feel like buying into any MFT lens is that safe because they might jump on the hybrid AF bandwagon and their existing lenses might not have been built with PDAF in mind, so the AF could wind up being slower and thus needing updates... I've been through that drill before with Nikon's lens updates that barely changed anything but nevertheless severely devalued my existing lenses (18-200). Plus with MFT lenses so overpriced, there is a risk that they do eventually drop prices a lot, so whatever you bought now will be devalued as well. It's the price of being an early adopter, I guess. As for me, I am fine with being an early adopter of RX100 but will take it really conservative and use my DSLR until mirrorless is viable for action shots and have cheaper native-mount lenses, which probably won't happen until Tamron/Sigma have more and better lenses available to put price pressure on the camera companies.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,771
24,117
136
Only Nikon has managed to get PDAF-on-sensor working well. Everyone else's hybrid AF hasn't been that great and without it you will have a hard time tracking small, fast-moving objects via AF alone. MFT doesn't even have PDAF at all though their CDAF is faster than everyone else's CDAF.

Further, and this is a key one for me, even if you have DSLR-speed PDAF, if the EVF lags, then you will have a hard time with composition. Optical viewfinders do not lag like EVFs do. See, e.g., the bird half out of the frame in this: http://www.naturalexposures.com/cor...nics-newest-micro-four-thirds-camera-the-gh3/

DSLRs also give you the highest bang for the buck if you value viewfinders, which often don't come with mirrorless cams or if they do, only on much more expensive cameras that can be higher priced than comparable DSLRs.

I've owned compacts, premium compacts, MFT, and DSLRs, and there is a reason why I went back to compact + DSLR. A MFT is a "tweener" that fits neither here nor there and doesn't give you the DOF ability that DSLRs have *and* have the problems above. NEX has the DOF ability but lenses are almost as big as DSLR lenses past wideangles, and they also have the problems above. That said, if you could afford only ONE camera system beyond your phone, Nikon 1 is a good compromise. MFT too, if you don't take many action shots. But if you have the money, imho, a RX100 or LX7 (no matter how small, mirrorless system cameras will never be as small as the smaller compact premium cameras like the RX100, which is truly pocketable even in tight jeans) paired with a DSLR (for action shots and bokeh) is the way to go if you shoot action sometimes. Try doing that on a mirrorless other than the Nikon V-series, and you will pay through the nose for the privilege of having the newer, less laggy viewfinders.

P.S. Stop trolling and implying others are troglodytes. No need to insult others who disagree with you.



I bought into MFT very heavily, getting a lot of lenses including the highest-end ones available for their focal lengths, and at the end of the day it still wasn't pocketable, so I still had to use a camera bag. Coat pockets don't count, because it gets hot in the summertime where I live. So I thought... what the hell is the point of "miniaturizing" if I still have to use a bag?

So I sold all my MFT gear for a RX100 and am happy with that decision. The RX100 looks like a compact and doesn't attract the attention... mirrorless system cameras can't say the same unless you stick to their smallest camera/lens combos.

The DSLR is for situations where I won't be hoofing it up a mountainside, in which case I would be ok with DSLR weight. DSLR lenses tend to be more reasonably priced too, like the cheap 50/1.8's compared to Sony's 50/1.8. Sure you get OSS with Sony's 50 but it costs like three times Canon's and about twice Nikon's (especially if you get the Nikon on sale or used). And OSS isn't even that important if you plan to use it as a portrait lens or other situations where things are moving, as you need to jack up the shutter speed ANYWAY to freeze motion. And for MFT sure you can get the 20/1.7 but it's slower focusing and due to sensor size difference it isn't as fast for bokeh reasons and ISO... and it also costs like $300. The 25/1.4 is better and a fairer comparison... but it's $500. All up and down the line you see this repeat. The Oly 9-18 is ridiculously small and light... a real boon over DSLR wideangle zooms. But it also costs almost $700 and gives you basically the same performance as a Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6 lens which can be found new for under $400. Etc. etc. etc. all up and down the line, you see what happens when you don't have Sigma/Tamron giving price pressure.

Truth be told, MFT lenses are way overpriced. Sigma was able to make lenses for NEX/MFT for a lot cheaper. But Pany/Oly are losing tons of money and have insufficient scale to really bring down prices for their lenses. Oly in particular is looking unhealthy and if I went MFT again I wouldn't want to go Pany due to their lack of IBIS... so Oly's health is a concern. CaNikony aren't going anywhere, though, so I'd feel safer investing $$$$ into their lens mounts. CaNikon in particular have a lot of third-party options that are cheap and good... that's not nearly as true for the mirrorless mounts (without adapter). I also don't feel like buying into any MFT lens is that safe because they might jump on the hybrid AF bandwagon and their existing lenses might not have been built with PDAF in mind, so the AF could wind up being slower and thus needing updates... I've been through that drill before with Nikon's lens updates that barely changed anything but nevertheless severely devalued my existing lenses (18-200). Plus with MFT lenses so overpriced, there is a risk that they do eventually drop prices a lot, so whatever you bought now will be devalued as well. It's the price of being an early adopter, I guess. As for me, I am fine with being an early adopter of RX100 but will take it really conservative and use my DSLR until mirrorless is viable for action shots and have cheaper native-mount lenses, which probably won't happen until Tamron/Sigma have more and better lenses available to put price pressure on the camera companies.

indeed mft is not always a pocketable system, although some of the smaller pens and a pancake are. depends what you want though.

for a blend of size, weight and capability that matches and exceeds the best APS-C setups i find it the right balance. it's also just as good as FF setups for various things. unless you need to print massive prints, most people think they need FF but never really use it, they'd be just as set with an MFT body. low iso landscape shooting on a tripod? unless you are printing huge there is really no advantage to a Nikon D800 vs an OM-D or GH3 setup. some people just can't figure that out but that's their loss. the hobby of photography becomes more enjoyable, for most, when it does not become such a cumbersome part of being out there to get the shot.

i don't mind carrying a bag, now it's much smaller and 1/3 of the weight as my APS-C kit was, nevermind a FF setup. and i don't lose a bit in capability for my shooting. at the end of the day, a camera is only good if you have it with you. mft has become the right balance for many photographers. it's also an advantage because the MFT size does not draw attention, making for a more relaxed shooting experience when around people. as you noted, the IBIS of oly is a big deal for some of us.

i have read numerous reviews from successful pros from ming thein to scott bourne have all realized that for most types of shooting, the new MFT setups make the heavier dslr setups a waste of space and weight. i agree.

some of the mft lenses are overpriced, on the other hand there are also some solid deals. the panny 12-35 is an overpriced lens, but for a couple hundred more than i feel it's worth, i get the IQ and speed i want so it's relative. of course there is a point of no return, if that lens was excessively overpriced, then that would be a bigger issue.

but yes if you want totally pocketable all the time, you go another route.

oly is not in the best financial shape but they are not going anywhere for awhile. sony just invested 650 million into oly, they will share tech info. oly their amazing optical skills, sony their sensor prowess. the lenses hold value, and the system is the most robust format outside of the dslr format ever. it's got staying power.
 
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blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Don't get me wrong, I really liked some facets of going MFT, especially the crazy overlays on the screen/EVF that you can't do with OVFs, and the pinpoint focus accuracy. It was also HILARIOUS to me how small my Oly 9-18mm M.zuiko lens was... it was such a relief to have a tiny wideangle for a change.


If you need action-shot capability though, it's DSLR or Nikon 1. That's it. No other choices, and even Nikon 1 is iffy due to EVF lag.

If you don't, then MFT seems most attractive.. the sweet spot.

In fact, I think MFT can be viewed in at least two ways: the perfect compromise between sensor/lens size and IQ, or a tweener in no-man's-land. (Same can be said for Nikon 1 I suppose.)

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

I may return to MFT-land in the future, especially if they ever get fast and accurate PDAF a la Nikon 1. I think Nikon 1 has iffy support and pricing and the lack of DoF control will be a problem, else I'd consider that system too. Canon EOS-M and NEX lenses are too big for me to gain much switching to those, even if they got to Nikon 1 level of hybrid AF.


indeed mft is not always a pocketable system, although some of the smaller pens and a pancake are. depends what you want though.

for a blend of size, weight and capability that matches and exceeds the best APS-C setups i find it the right balance. it's also just as good as FF setups for various things. unless you need to print massive prints, most people think they need FF but never really use it, they'd be just as set with an MFT body. low iso landscape shooting on a tripod? unless you are printing huge there is really no advantage to a Nikon D800 vs an OM-D or GH3 setup. some people just can't figure that out but that's their loss. the hobby of photography becomes more enjoyable, for most, when it does not become such a cumbersome part of being out there to get the shot.

i don't mind carrying a bag, now it's much smaller and 1/3 of the weight as my APS-C kit was, nevermind a FF setup. and i don't lose a bit in capability for my shooting. at the end of the day, a camera is only good if you have it with you. mft has become the right balance for many photographers. it's also an advantage because the MFT size does not draw attention, making for a more relaxed shooting experience when around people. as you noted, the IBIS of oly is a big deal for some of us.

i have read numerous reviews from successful pros from ming thein to scott bourne have all realized that for most types of shooting, the new MFT setups make the heavier dslr setups a waste of space and weight. i agree.

some of the mft lenses are overpriced, on the other hand there are also some solid deals. the panny 12-35 is an overpriced lens, but for a couple hundred more than i feel it's worth, i get the IQ and speed i want so it's relative. of course there is a point of no return, if that lens was excessively overpriced, then that would be a bigger issue.

but yes if you want totally pocketable all the time, you go another route.

oly is not in the best financial shape but they are not going anywhere for awhile. sony just invested 650 million into oly, they will share tech info. oly their amazing optical skills, sony their sensor prowess. the lenses hold value, and the system is the most robust format outside of the dslr format ever. it's got staying power.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
I'm not talking about LCDs, but EVFs. Have you tried a Sony with an EVF? The OLED ones are better than optical

Have you tried an EVF in a high contrast scene? How do you like them washed out highlights and blotched out shadows? I'll take a DX-size optical view finder with 95% coverage any day over an electronic one.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Have you tried an EVF in a high contrast scene? How do you like them washed out highlights and blotched out shadows? I'll take a DX-size optical view finder with 95% coverage any day over an electronic one.

I've never noticed that and I've photographed lots of rodeos outdoors and landscapes. Who cares about washed out highlights and blotched out shadows? If anything, that more accurately reflects what the actual picture will look like. And if you press the aperture preview button, what you see is literally what you get.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,771
24,117
136
Have you tried an EVF in a high contrast scene? How do you like them washed out highlights and blotched out shadows? I'll take a DX-size optical view finder with 95% coverage any day over an electronic one.

i was sure i would miss the optical viewfinder when switching to an evf. not all evf's are created equal.

i've shot high contrast, low contrast and everything with the om-d and haven't missed the optical at all.

i'd rather have the compact and lightweight of the om-d along with the ridiculous IQ than have a dx sized optical viewfinder that goes along with all that bloated weight and size that is not needed. any day of the week and twice on sundays.
 

Rottie

Diamond Member
Feb 10, 2002
4,795
2
81
I think Corkg is going to get his hands on new T5i when it comes out? :) I am hoping the T4i price will go down or I can buy 60D.
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
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i'd rather have the compact and lightweight of the om-d along with the ridiculous IQ than have a dx sized optical viewfinder that goes along with all that bloated weight and size that is not needed. any day of the week and twice on sundays.

I get what you're saying. I've looked longingly at the OM-D and am sure that I would be super happy to have one in addition to my DSLRs. However, the question asked earlier was why do they even still put mirrors in cameras. Unless the OM-D viewfinder is vastly superior to the Nikon V1 (which I don't think is true) I still favor the Optical Viewfider of an SLR, even the "looking down a tunnel" feel of DX.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
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T5i introduction price is lower than T4i intro price, essentially putting lipstick on the old body then send it back out into the market at a discount.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,771
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I get what you're saying. I've looked longingly at the OM-D and am sure that I would be super happy to have one in addition to my DSLRs. However, the question asked earlier was why do they even still put mirrors in cameras. Unless the OM-D viewfinder is vastly superior to the Nikon V1 (which I don't think is true) I still favor the Optical Viewfider of an SLR, even the "looking down a tunnel" feel of DX.

well not EVF are created equal. try it at a camera shop.

it was one of my bigger concerns switching formats, but turned out to be a non-issue for me. however it is a subjective thing. you put it in high refresh mode it's very smooth, in regular refresh it is also fine, just can be a bit slower in low light.

keep in mind the evf also does offer some advantages like what it can display in the viewfinder, such as the immensely useful shadow/highlights mode that instantly shows you what is under and/or overexposed as you aim the camera.

if you can get past the EVF, getting an MFT kit was the most liberating thing i could have done for my photography hobby and brought back the enjoyment of it without having to worry about the bulk and weight anymore.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
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Perhaps it doesn't fit your need, but IMHO for many people currently go for Canon is for their lenses.

I'm not sure I understood that sentence, and I read it 3 times. If I'm reading you correctly, I think you were making a case for Canon lenses but imho Nikon lenses are as good; they trade blows. For instance Canon has no answer for the Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 (to the point where some landscape pros actually buy the Nikon and an adapter and hook it up to a Canon body), and the little Nikon 35mm f/1.8G is better than anything Canon has at 35mm (cheaper, too), but Canon's long telephotos are often better-priced than Nikons (though Nikon has caught up somewhat in quality, they charge more than Canon in many cases).

Also, Sigma and others have made lenses for multiple companies, and they've gotten quite good over the years. So that's not an advantage for either Canon or Nikon.

In any case, I'm voting with my wallet and others may vote with theirs. I harbor no ill will towards Canon users or Canon itself. I just wish they would actually upgrade their fabs already. Competition is good for consumers, so I think all photographers would agree.
 

JohnnyRebel

Senior member
Feb 7, 2011
762
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0
if you can get past the EVF, getting an MFT kit was the most liberating thing i could have done for my photography hobby and brought back the enjoyment of it without having to worry about the bulk and weight anymore.

Congrats! Without the joy, why bother?