New Build - Some Concerns, please help!

[Cymera]

Hello!

First time poster, long time reader. I'd like to start by thanking Anandtech and its forums for the wonderful insights it has provided me into all kinds of hardware!

Although I like to think I know my way around a PC and hardware, I believe I could absolutely use some more nuanced opinions on my project. While I have attempted to search for the answers, and I've read a couple of threads, I haven't found a definitive answer to two major issues (of course, there may not be a definitive answer!) which I'll state shortly.

The plan is to use my current machine (Q6600 @ 3.0 Ghz; 560 Ti; 4 GB DDR2; ~4 TB Total HDD; Xonar DS) as an HTPC and build a new primary machine.

The budget is (ideally) ~$2200 CDN, but flexible if necessary. Also, I'm not in any real rush, as the recent failure of my 8800GTS forced me to get an EVGA 560 Ti FPB and a Corsair 850w PSU. I don't really care about FPS, but I do care about smoothness - it could run at 30, 60, or 120 FPS, as long as its consistently smooth (as much as is possible), I'm happy. As such, my current machine doesn't do a bad job, but it is almost 3 years old, excluding the recent upgrades, and some CPU intensive games do suffer (such as Supreme Commander 2). Long story short: I can and think I want to upgrade, but if there are significantly better technology/prices in the near future, I can wait.

The components I was looking at are as follows:

Asus P8P67 Pro (Rev.3.0) Socket 1155 Intel P67 Chipset
Intel Core i7-2600K Quad-Core Socket LGA1155, 3.40Ghz, 8MB L3 Cache, 32nm
EVGA GeForce GTX 560 Ti FPB (x2)
Corsair Professional Series Gold CMPSU-850AX Full Modular 850W Power Supply
Corsair XMS3 Classic 4GB DDR3 1333MHz CL9 DIMM (x2)
Zalman CNPS9900A LED Low-noise 120mm Blue LED CPU Cooler 2 Ball Bearing PWM
Antec Twelve Hundred V3 Ultimate Gaming Case
Crucial 64GB RealSSD C300 2.5" SATA 3 Solid State Drive
Western Digital Caviar Black (WD1002FAEX) 1000GB (1TB) SATA3 7200RPM 64MB Cache
Western Digital Caviar Green (WD20EARS) 2000GB (2TB) SATA 3 Gb/s 64MB
LG GH24NS50 Black SATA DVD-Writer
Asus Xonar DS

So, the major questions I had are the following:

1) Microstuttering on a multi-gpu setup. I was planning on buying 2 x 560 Ti, which would be cheaper and outperform a single 580, but I have been reading some concerning things about microstuttering. Namely, would it be more prudent to get a single card, or try SLI to see what affect it has/I perceive it to have, and then decide?

2) SSDs. I've done too much - yet surely not enough - reading on SSDs, their performance, their issues, and the various problems of different makes. Which do I get?! I'm looking for a purely OS (W7 64 Ultimate) drive, I was thinking around 64 GB (correct me if that's too little). Based on price (not a huge issue, however), performance, and ostensibly higher reliability and lower issues, I had narrowed it down to either the Crucial RealSSD C300 64 GB or the Intel 320 80 GB - thoughts?

Other questions I have with GPUs are in regards to renewal cycles. For example, is it better to get a medium-high end GPU each year (like a 560), or a high end GPU every few years to keep up with games? Granted, I wouldn't like to have to upgrade every year - that is why I was looking at an SLI setup, in the hopes that it would perform well for several years.

Finally, in terms of the other components of the build, should anything be changed? Is the Zalman cooler unnecessary (I currently have an older one on my Q6600, and OC'd, after 3 years, still idles ~35 and goes no higher than ~47 on load)? Thoughts on the sound card, is it good, or are soundcards unnecessary? Any advice here would also be very welcome.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and for taking the time to read and/or reply!

Cheers,

Cy

 

[Chapbass]

Great post, cy, welcome to the boards!

My first thought is this:

1. What resolution are you going to be gaming at?

2. Personally, I would do a 2500k chip and use that cash for a 128GB C300 SSD. Gives you a little more flexibility, in general the bigger SSD's are faster, just think that'd be a good idea. It all depends on what you're doing with it, however, so it isn't completely cut and dry like that.

3. I'm assuming you're using headphones? What kind of headphones do you have? Unless they're pretty high end, the Soundcard MAY be unneeded. I personally use some pretty high end headphones (Sennheiser HD650), and wouldn't go without a sound card and headphone amp, but for many people who are just using whatever, it may be unneeded cost.



I haven't used an SLI Setup myself, so I can't comment about the microstuttering, but depending on your resolution you may not even need an SLI setup anyway.

 

[Chapbass]

Also, I know there is 1-2 HSF's that are very popular right now (something like a 121 or 212 or something?) I don't do much overclocking myself, so I don't really bother with it, but I would say, ESPECIALLY with two video cards, the zalman is mainly for being quiet, and with two video cards your noise is basically out the window anyway. I'd go with something that could get some more juice out of that K series chip.

 

[dpodblood]

See italicized below.

Hello!

First time poster, long time reader. I'd like to start by thanking Anandtech and its forums for the wonderful insights it has provided me into all kinds of hardware!

Although I like to think I know my way around a PC and hardware, I believe I could absolutely use some more nuanced opinions on my project. While I have attempted to search for the answers, and I've read a couple of threads, I haven't found a definitive answer to two major issues (of course, there may not be a definitive answer!) which I'll state shortly.

The plan is to use my current machine (Q6600 @ 3.0 Ghz; 560 Ti; 4 GB DDR2; ~4 TB Total HDD; Xonar DS) as an HTPC and build a new primary machine.

The budget is (ideally) ~$2200 CDN, but flexible if necessary. Also, I'm not in any real rush, as the recent failure of my 8800GTS forced me to get an EVGA 560 Ti FPB and a Corsair 850w PSU. I don't really care about FPS, but I do care about smoothness - it could run at 30, 60, or 120 FPS, as long as its consistently smooth (as much as is possible), I'm happy. As such, my current machine doesn't do a bad job, but it is almost 3 years old, excluding the recent upgrades, and some CPU intensive games do suffer (such as Supreme Commander 2). Long story short: I can and think I want to upgrade, but if there are significantly better technology/prices in the near future, I can wait.

The components I was looking at are as follows:

Asus P8P67 Pro (Rev.3.0) Socket 1155 Intel P67 Chipset
Intel Core i7-2600K Quad-Core Socket LGA1155, 3.40Ghz, 8MB L3 Cache, 32nm
EVGA GeForce GTX 560 Ti FPB (x2)
Corsair Professional Series Gold CMPSU-850AX Full Modular 850W Power Supply
Corsair XMS3 Classic 4GB DDR3 1333MHz CL9 DIMM (x2)
Zalman CNPS9900A LED Low-noise 120mm Blue LED CPU Cooler 2 Ball Bearing PWM
Antec Twelve Hundred V3 Ultimate Gaming Case
Crucial 64GB RealSSD C300 2.5" SATA 3 Solid State Drive
Western Digital Caviar Black (WD1002FAEX) 1000GB (1TB) SATA3 7200RPM 64MB Cache
Western Digital Caviar Green (WD20EARS) 2000GB (2TB) SATA 3 Gb/s 64MB
LG GH24NS50 Black SATA DVD-Writer
Asus Xonar DS

You aren't going to be able to use that XMS3 memory (at least not safely) on a Sandy Bridge build. You will need to find some 1.5v RAM such as G.Skill Ripjaws, or Corsair Vengeance. Personally I would go with G.Skill. The corsair memory is needlessly expensive.

So, the major questions I had are the following:

1) Microstuttering on a multi-gpu setup. I was planning on buying 2 x 560 Ti, which would be cheaper and outperform a single 580, but I have been reading some concerning things about microstuttering. Namely, would it be more prudent to get a single card, or try SLI to see what affect it has/I perceive it to have, and then decide?

If you are running at a resolution like 1680x1050, or 1080p you aren't really in need of an SLI setup. I would just stick with your single card, and if you really think it's necessary add another card later on.

2) SSDs. I've done too much - yet surely not enough - reading on SSDs, their performance, their issues, and the various problems of different makes. Which do I get?! I'm looking for a purely OS (W7 64 Ultimate) drive, I was thinking around 64 GB (correct me if that's too little). Based on price (not a huge issue, however), performance, and ostensibly higher reliability and lower issues, I had narrowed it down to either the Crucial RealSSD C300 64 GB or the Intel 320 80 GB - thoughts?

If you are looking for the safe bet Intel drives seem to be the best bet. Corsair is nice as well, but stay away from OCZ what ever you do. 64GB should be fine for an OS disk, but if it were me I'd get a 120GB drive so you can store games on there as well. That will make a big difference in loading times.

Other questions I have with GPUs are in regards to renewal cycles. For example, is it better to get a medium-high end GPU each year (like a 560), or a high end GPU every few years to keep up with games? Granted, I wouldn't like to have to upgrade every year - that is why I was looking at an SLI setup, in the hopes that it would perform well for several years.

My general rule is to buy the best single GPU you can afford. When it isn't up to snuff anymore, sell it, and buy a newer GPU.

Finally, in terms of the other components of the build, should anything be changed? Is the Zalman cooler unnecessary (I currently have an older one on my Q6600, and OC'd, after 3 years, still idles ~35 and goes no higher than ~47 on load)? Thoughts on the sound card, is it good, or are soundcards unnecessary? Any advice here would also be very welcome.

Unless you are using high end speakers or headphones the sound card is really un-needed. Onboard is fine for most applications.

For the CPU I would drop down to the i5-2500K, the i7 isn't needed for gaming. And go for a cooler like the Coolermaster Hyper 212+. SB chips run cool, so no need for an exotic cooler.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and for taking the time to read and/or reply!

Cheers,

Cy

 

[Chapbass]

See italicized below.

Might want to bold that, the whole thing is italicized.

 

[Cymera]

Great post, cy, welcome to the boards!

My first thought is this:

1. What resolution are you going to be gaming at?

2. Personally, I would do a 2500k chip and use that cash for a 128GB C300 SSD. Gives you a little more flexibility, in general the bigger SSD's are faster, just think that'd be a good idea. It all depends on what you're doing with it, however, so it isn't completely cut and dry like that.

3. I'm assuming you're using headphones? What kind of headphones do you have? Unless they're pretty high end, the Soundcard MAY be unneeded. I personally use some pretty high end headphones (Sennheiser HD650), and wouldn't go without a sound card and headphone amp, but for many people who are just using whatever, it may be unneeded cost.

I haven't used an SLI Setup myself, so I can't comment about the microstuttering, but depending on your resolution you may not even need an SLI setup anyway.

Thank you both for your thoughts and the warm welcome!

I will be gaming at 1920x1080 on a 23.6" Asus LED @ 60Hz. I do game online, used to competitively, if BF3 is any good I likely will again. As such, high frames are 'necessary,' but not at the expense of smoothness.

I should have noted that, ideally (although I understand this may not be realistic), I would like to build a machine that - with the exception of the GPU - would last a good 3-4 years and still perform very well in games. I don't do any rendering or anything of the sort, games and the occasional video conversion are my most CPU-intensive tasks.

That being said, would the extra $100 for the 2600K be warranted? I was planning on overclocking it to at least 4.4 (as was demonstrated in the Anandtech review); would the 2500K be able to reach a similarly high OC? If so, out of curiosity, what is the advantage of the 2600K?

dpodblood: the OC was the reason I was looking at the Zalman, that and because I already have one on my current machine that I'm happy with. However, if you're of the opinion that it's unnecessary, I'll happily reconsider

Also, thank you very much for pointing out the issue with the memory, how about the G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600?

In terms of my sound setup, I am no audiophile, although I have the unfortunate (because they always encourage me to spend a fortune on audio!) pleasure of knowing a few! At the moment I am running a Logitech Z-2300 2.1 system and a pair of SteelSeries Siberia's off of the Xonar DS. My entertainment setup is using the Z-5500 5.1 system. I'll admit that the only reason I got the sound card in the first place was BSODs in BFBC2 with the onboard Realtek, and the difference was noticeable, but not as substantial as I expected. However, I have had more problems than I care to recount with this sound card (and, from what I have read, Creative is not a better choice...) - I can't even install Windows without removing it from the case first!

While it may be unnecessary, does anyone know of a sound card that is not hell-bent on causing BSODs? Come on, there has to be one!

It's getting to be a tough choice between the SSDs! I did read about the various problems with OCZ's offerings. I'm somewhat leaning toward the Intel because of its reputation for reliability.

Thank you again for your thoughts guys!

 

[Chapbass]

The main difference between the 2500k and 2600k is Hyperthreading. For now, the extra 4 "fake" cores that HT adds is really only beneficial in very multithreaded apps like video rendering, etc. Gaming typically doesn't do too well with multithreading.

THAT SAID: You never know what will happen in the next 3-4 years as the push for more Cores in a cpu ramps up.

Honestly, what I may advise is to get the 128GB SSD (especially in a few years, you'll be feeling that 64GB crunch), whatever you want to do on the 2600k. Most people here advise against it, personally I feel that it may be more useful in a few years than it is now (for how much the price difference is), but I very well could be wrong.

At your resolution, honestly I wouldn't bother with SLI and instead get a high end single card. You won't have to worry about the microstuttering issue, you'll still get great performance, and you won't have the potenntial for issues due to SLI (even though theyre mainly worked out by now).

As I'm not really into the high end graphics card market right now (I have a 4850 myself), I'll let someone else advise on the best cards, but thats what I would do.

Also: you were getting BSOD's on windows 7 installs with that sound card? very odd. I've always been a fan of HT Omega and their line of Claro products, but I think that may be overkill for your setup. Also, its more for audiophile stuff, less so for gaming (where positioning and EAX is more key than fidelity).

 

[dpodblood]

Well you have a solid build there so IMO other than the GFX card it will last 3 years. And yes the Ripjaws 1600 is good, but it will only give you a 2-3 FPS advantage over the 1333. If you want to save a few bucks that would be the best route, and that's more money you can put into a larger SSD!

 

[Cymera]

The main difference between the 2500k and 2600k is Hyperthreading. For now, the extra 4 "fake" cores that HT adds is really only beneficial in very multithreaded apps like video rendering, etc. Gaming typically doesn't do too well with multithreading.

THAT SAID: You never know what will happen in the next 3-4 years as the push for more Cores in a cpu ramps up.

Honestly, what I may advise is to get the 128GB SSD (especially in a few years, you'll be feeling that 64GB crunch), whatever you want to do on the 2600k. Most people here advise against it, personally I feel that it may be more useful in a few years than it is now (for how much the price difference is), but I very well could be wrong.

At your resolution, honestly I wouldn't bother with SLI and instead get a high end single card. You won't have to worry about the microstuttering issue, you'll still get great performance, and you won't have the potenntial for issues due to SLI (even though theyre mainly worked out by now).

As I'm not really into the high end graphics card market right now (I have a 4850 myself), I'll let someone else advise on the best cards, but thats what I would do.

Also: you were getting BSOD's on windows 7 installs with that sound card? very odd. I've always been a fan of HT Omega and their line of Claro products, but I think that may be overkill for your setup. Also, its more for audiophile stuff, less so for gaming (where positioning and EAX is more key than fidelity).

From what I've seen on these boards, this thread, and looking back at the review, the 2600K doesn't seem to outperform the 2500K in what I would use it for. Still, I may get it to 'future proof' it a bit more, but I'm not so certain know.

As for the SSD, I was going for 60-80 GB now because I was only planning to use it for the OS, and I would hope that prices become lower by the time 60-80 GB is insufficient for a clean Windows install. I really wasn't looking to install anything else on that drive, not even games or applications. However, some leeway and extra performance would be nice, especially if I'm not going for the 2600K.

In terms of the GPU, since reading up on the microstuttering issue I am far less enthusiastic about SLI. However, the consistently higher frames that a 560 Ti SLI provides over a 580 for a lower price is very attractive. I may (because my hardware store is a 10 minute walk from my home) just get the SLI, test it for a week or so, and if it is unsatisfactory, exchange them for a single card.

I would love to get some more opinions on the GPU situation, if anyone knows of other facets to it that I've overlooked.

Yes, I was getting BSODs installing Windows with the card, however, it has been working perfectly since then. I did a clean install without it in the case, installed all drivers (with the exception of sound), then installed the Xonar, and boom, no issues... I don't know what it is about the card that Windows didn't like during install, but it would BSOD at the same point in the installation over and over. For anyone else that has any issues with the Xonar series, try the Unified Xonar Drivers, they're very lightweight, low DPC, and an easy install.

I will look at HT Omega (ran into them before, looked good, well reviewed) possibly, but I may just skip over the sound card altogether - that is, if BFBC2 doesn't decide to be problematic

 

[Cymera]

Well you have a solid build there so IMO other than the GFX card it will last 3 years. And yes the Ripjaws 1600 is good, but it will only give you a 2-3 FPS advantage over the 1333. If you want to save a few bucks that would be the best route, and that's more money you can put into a larger SSD!

Great idea! Excel spreadsheet with components updated!

Thoughts on the GPU? Should I try SLI and see if I have issues or avoid altogether and go for a 570/580?

Thanks!

 

[dpodblood]

I was under the impression that you already had the 560 Ti. If that's the case I would just stick with that. If not, just pick up a GTX 570, or HD 6950 2GB and call it a day.

 

[dma0991]

The Core i7 2600K is by no means future proofing. You get the Core i7 2600K for the HT and is very useful only if your programs are made to support multiple threads. Future proofing is hard considering that Intel is following their Tick Tock method which would just nullify your future proofing efforts.

I suggest getting a Core i5 2500K instead and if you are not satisfied with the performance, there is a drop in replacement Ivy Bridge with a BIOS update next year. Spend your money on other parts first as there is a better CPU than SB next year.

 

[Cymera]

I was under the impression that you already had the 560 Ti. If that's the case I would just stick with that. If not, just pick up a GTX 570, or HD 6950 2GB and call it a day.

O, I do have the 560 Ti on my current machine, and I think its a fantastic card, its really great. I just wanted to keep it for the HTPC - which, with the 560, would allow my wife to keep off my computer when she wants to play Sims 3!

So you don't think its worth it to go for the 580?

Thanks

The Core i7 2600K is by no means future proofing. You get the Core i7 2600K for the HT and is very useful only if your programs are made to support multiple threads. Future proofing is hard considering that Intel is following their Tick Tock method which would just nullify your future proofing efforts.

I suggest getting a Core i5 2500K instead and if you are not satisfied with the performance, there is a drop in replacement Ivy Bridge with a BIOS update next year. Spend your money on other parts first as there is a better CPU than SB next year.

Well said, I think I'm sold on the i5 Thanks!

 

[dpodblood]

For 1080p you do not need a 580. GTX 570 is what you need at most.

 

[Cymera]

For 1080p you do not need a 580. GTX 570 is what you need at most.

You guys are saving me money left and right! I think you're right, based on the performance advances in GPUs year to year, there doesn't seem to be much sense in trying to go big and stick with it. If I get an EVGA 570 Superclocked for $359.99 I'll be more inclined to upgrade it in 1.5-2 years than if I spent over $500 on a 580.

Also, what do people around here think about factory overclocks on GPUs? Good or bad? Should they be avoided? Does it depend on the make?

 

[fffblackmage]

Also, what do people around here think about factory overclocks on GPUs? Good or bad? Should they be avoided? Does it depend on the make?

Good if you don't have to pay more for it. The factory overclock is often minuscule, and you often can do better yourself. The only thing probably worth paying more for is a better cooler.

 

[mfenn]

Welcome to the forums Cymera! Some quality posters have already chimed in on most of the things that I was going to mention, but I'll recap:
- If you're interested in smoothness (defined as low framerate jitter), then you definitely want to avoid SLI. A microstuttering SLI setup (which is most of them to one extent or another) practically has sawteeth for a FPS over time plot!
- The i7 2600K is not worth it for gaming. Sure it is a little faster, but it will overclock about the same and costs $100 more. IMHO, that $100 would be better spent bumping the SSD to 120GB.
- The GTX 570 is a good choice, if a bit pricy IMHO. I'd take a look at the 6950 2GB instead for $60 less. At stock, it is a little bit slower than the GTX 570 but has the potential to unlock to a 6970, which is a bit faster than the GTX 570.
- I'd get Samsung F3 1TB instead of the FAEX. It's just as fast and quite a bit cheaper.
- If you don't do SLI, there is no reason to get the P8P67 Pro. You can get something less expensive like the GA-P67A-UD3 instead.
- The AX PSU is ridiculous overkill. An XFX Core 550W is more than sufficient for a single-GPU system.
- Get G.Skill DDR3 1333 1.5V as others have said

That's about it for now. I may think of a few more though. :awe:

 

[Cymera]

Good if you don't have to pay more for it. The factory overclock is often minuscule, and you often can do better yourself. The only thing probably worth paying more for is a better cooler.

Good thinking. That leads me to another question: are contemporary GPUs OC-friendly to the degree that, for example, a 2500K is? Would that require an aftermarket cooler? I once tried to overclock an 8800 GTS 640, and it was stable with good frames in everything but Crysis, so I stopped, but I was just experimenting.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Welcome to the forums Cymera! Some quality posters have already chimed in on most of the things that I was going to mention, but I'll recap:
- If you're interested in smoothness (defined as low framerate jitter), then you definitely want to avoid SLI. A microstuttering SLI setup (which is most of them to one extent or another) practically has sawteeth for a FPS over time plot!
- The i7 2600K is not worth it for gaming. Sure it is a little faster, but it will overclock about the same and costs $100 more. IMHO, that $100 would be better spent bumping the SSD to 120GB.
- The GTX 570 is a good choice, if a bit pricy IMHO. I'd take a look at the 6950 2GB instead for $60 less. At stock, it is a little bit slower than the GTX 570 but has the potential to unlock to a 6970, which is a bit faster than the GTX 570.
- I'd get Samsung F3 1TB instead of the FAEX. It's just as fast and quite a bit cheaper.
- If you don't do SLI, there is no reason to get the P8P67 Pro. You can get something less expensive like the GA-P67A-UD3 instead.
- The AX PSU is ridiculous overkill. An XFX Core 550W is more than sufficient for a single-GPU system.
- Get G.Skill DDR3 1333 1.5V as others have said

That's about it for now. I may think of a few more though. :awe:

Hi mfenn! Thanks for the welcome! In response to your thoughts:

Thanks for further clarifying the microstuttering issue, although high frames are nice, if the experience behind the numbers doesn't match up, its not worth it.

I agree with what you're all saying about the 2600K, thanks for pointing that out. I was actually suprised to see how closely the 2500K and the 2600K performed in the Anandtech review, and how the 2500K would sometimes outperform the 2600K in games!

Looking at the performance of the 6950, even at stock it seems to do quite well for its price. I'll admit, I'm a bit of an Nvidia fanboy, but I would make the switch to AMD if it was worth it. However, I do have some questions about contemporary AMD cards, since I have not used one in over 5 years.

First, how are AMD's drivers compared to Nvidia? More/less frequent releases, are they better or worse in terms of performance gains/stability/affecting overclocks? Any other problems/benefits when comparing the two?

Second, do AMD cards support Ambient Occlusion (I believe they do, but I'm not certain), and how do they handle various kinds of AA?

Any other thoughts on Nvidia vs. ATI at this range (~GTX570, 6950/6970)?

Although I don't pretend to know how these figures translate directly into performance, the FAEX is SATA3 (6GBps) and has a 64mb cache, while the Samsung is SATAII and has a 32mb cache. Will I not see a performance difference between those two drives? The WD Green 2TB is for storage, don't care about speed there, but the FAEX was intended for applications and games that don't make it onto the SSD. As such, will the Samsung perform as well as the FAEX? If so, I'll happily switch. Also, are there significant differences in build quality/reliability between those drives?

I kind of like the Asus boards better, so would the equivalent of the board you mentioned be the regular P8P67? I have a P5K on my current board and it was a breeze to OC my Q6600, and from what I read in the Anandtech review, the P8P67 was similarly user friendly in its interface and in OC. Are there advantages to Gigabyte that I'm not aware of?

For the PSU, I was also thinking in terms of longevity, i.e. if I replaced the GPU in 1.5-2 years or add more RAM, more drives, OC the CPU and/or GPU, etc. Also, although I don't understand this in and out, I believe - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that PSUs, due to capacitor aging (right?), will lose their performance over time. Because of all of the above, I was looking to go with enough power for more components/upgrades/OC, and so it would still run if it lost its mojo. However, if a 550-750w will do and still address all my concerns, by all means I'll go for it!

Agreed on the G.Skill

Thank you so much for your thoughts, they've been really helpful! I look forward to your response (and others)!

 

[mfenn]

Good thinking. That leads me to another question: are contemporary GPUs OC-friendly to the degree that, for example, a 2500K is? Would that require an aftermarket cooler? I once tried to overclock an 8800 GTS 640, and it was stable with good frames in everything but Crysis, so I stopped, but I was just experimenting.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Yes, contemporary GPUs are overclockable. Their stock coolers are generally fairly overengineered, so you should be able to get a good overclock out of them. It's still overclocking though, so YMMV.

First, how are AMD's drivers compared to Nvidia? More/less frequent releases, are they better or worse in terms of performance gains/stability/affecting overclocks? Any other problems/benefits when comparing the two?

They are basically equivalent these days. Nvidia will have problems with some games or release a bad driver set, but so will AMD.

Second, do AMD cards support Ambient Occlusion (I believe they do, but I'm not certain), and how do they handle various kinds of AA?

AMD cards do support ambient occlusion, but you can't force it in the driver like you can with Nvidia. The are pretty much equivalent in terms of AA modes though they have slightly different implementations and naming conventions once you get to the higher modes.

Any other thoughts on Nvidia vs. ATI at this range (~GTX570, 6950/6970)?

The AMD cards perform the same, are less expensive, and use less power, so it's a no brainer IMHO.

Although I don't pretend to know how these figures translate directly into performance, the FAEX is SATA3 (6GBps) and has a 64mb cache, while the Samsung is SATAII and has a 32mb cache. Will I not see a performance difference between those two drives? The WD Green 2TB is for storage, don't care about speed there, but the FAEX was intended for applications and games that don't make it onto the SSD. As such, will the Samsung perform as well as the FAEX? If so, I'll happily switch. Also, are there significant differences in build quality/reliability between those drives?

Basically, the figures that you quoted don't translate into performance. SATA 6Gb/s vs 3Gb/s is a non-issue because neither drive is fast enough to saturate even the 3Gb/s bus. Doubling the cache also doesn't help, because two times too-small-to-matter is still to-small-to-matter. The F3 and FAEX perform equivalently, and the F3 is much less expensive. For the 2TB drive, you are correct that performance really doesn't matter too much. Finally, I'd consider WD and Samsung to be equivalent in terms of reliability.

I kind of like the Asus boards better, so would the equivalent of the board you mentioned be the regular P8P67? I have a P5K on my current board and it was a breeze to OC my Q6600, and from what I read in the Anandtech review, the P8P67 was similarly user friendly in its interface and in OC. Are there advantages to Gigabyte that I'm not aware of?

Yes, the equivalent ASUS would be the vanilla P8P67, though the P8P67 does have Bluetooth and Firewire. The 1st generation UEFI user interfaces are basically the same as BIOSes with a fancy skin. Not worth choosing one over the other IMHO. The Gigabyte's advantage is that it's 20% less expensive.

For the PSU, I was also thinking in terms of longevity, i.e. if I replaced the GPU in 1.5-2 years or add more RAM, more drives, OC the CPU and/or GPU, etc. Also, although I don't understand this in and out, I believe - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that PSUs, due to capacitor aging (right?), will lose their performance over time. Because of all of the above, I was looking to go with enough power for more components/upgrades/OC, and so it would still run if it lost its mojo. However, if a 550-750w will do and still address all my concerns, by all means I'll go for it!

Here's my favorite chart in the whole world. Short answer, 550W is more than enough. TDPs have plateaued in recent years, so any upgrades you buy will likely consume the same amount of power as the old ones that they're replacing.

Thank you so much for your thoughts, they've been really helpful! I look forward to your response (and others)!

You're very welcome.

 

[Cymera]

Thanks again for your advice mfenn! Unfortunately I am visiting family out of town for Easter and am only working on my laptop, which I really dislike...

However, I am curious about what you said regarding the ability to 'unlock' a 6950 to a 6970. To that end I was reading up in the GPU section of the forums, only to find some news that the 6950s with 'BIOS switch' are possibly being phased out. (Forgive me, I don't know how to embed on these forums yet, here is the link: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2158658)

Is unlocking the same as overclocking or is it something different? Would I need to find a 6950 with a 'BIOS switch' in order to unlock it? I ask because if they are being phased out, I would like to try to find one.

Thank you in advance for your reply

btw, if anyone else has advice on this or any other aspect of this build, it would be very much appreciated!

 

[dma0991]

That is part of XFX and nothing to do with AMD. I don't think other manufacturers would like to remove that BIOS switch as it is one of the key feature of the HD69xx cards. By unlocking you are just removing the limitation of the HD6950 which has 1408 SP to 1536 SP which is stock on a HD6970.

It is not the same as overclocking as it involves more of the BIOS update to be able to unlock it. Overclocking a GPU does not necessarily need a BIOS update. Usually I am against unlocking it because it is based on luck but give it a try and you may end up with a very powerful card. Your rig is good to go

 

[mfenn]

That is part of XFX and nothing to do with AMD. I don't think other manufacturers would like to remove that BIOS switch as it is one of the key feature of the HD69xx cards. By unlocking you are just removing the limitation of the HD6950 which has 1408 SP to 1536 SP which is stock on a HD6970.

It is not the same as overclocking as it involves more of the BIOS update to be able to unlock it. Overclocking a GPU does not necessarily need a BIOS update. Usually I am against unlocking it because it is based on luck but give it a try and you may end up with a very powerful card. Your rig is good to go

Good explanation!

Cymera, the only 6950s that will reliably unlock are the 2GB reference models (i.e. just relabeled the AMD design). Originally, pretty much all 6950s on the market were reference models, but more and more partners are building non-reference cards, which does limit the unlocking options somewhat. As of right now though, there is still a decent selection of unlockable cards on Newegg. Here are a few:
MSI $250 AR
HIS $255 AR
Diamond $300
VisionTek $300

 

[Cymera]

Thanks dma0991 and mfenn for your clarifications!

But now I have more questions! Why is unlocking this card "based on luck"? I am looking for a card no less powerful than a 6970/GTX570, so if there's a chance I could not unlock the 6950, I would go with the 6970.

If it is likely that I could unlock it, would it overclock as well, or nearly as well, as a 6970? In either case, are there any good guides here or elsewhere on how to do both (unlock and overclock) 'safely' (maybe carefully is the better word)?

Finally (well, that I can think of now! ), what about Sapphire? Do they make reference cards? Either way, which AMD card partners are considered the 'best'? The last AMD card I had was a Sapphire ATI X1600XT which still runs after about 5+ years. Since switching over to Nvidia I had read, heard, and experienced that EVGA was very good in terms of reliability, customer support, and warranty - those being among the most important things to me. So is there a general consensus on which partners I should look to (price isn't a big issue at this level)?

Thanks again, I appreciate everyone putting up with my constant questions.

 

[mfenn]

Thanks again, I appreciate everyone putting up with my constant questions.

No worries.

Unlocking is "based on luck" because, like overclocking, you're running the chip outside of the bounds that it was factory tested with. Based on what I've read, the success rate is 90%+ with reference cards, but if you want to be guaranteed a 6970, it's probably better to buy a 6970.

As far as overclocking 6950 2GB vs. 6970 goes, they're the same chip (and card for reference designs), so they should have the same overclocking potential. Of course, nothing is guaranteed when it comes to overclocking.

Finally, I think that any of the vendors that I listed previously would be fine. Sapphire does make a reference 6950 2GB, but it's OOS at Newegg right now, perhaps permanently.

 

[Cymera]

No worries.

Unlocking is "based on luck" because, like overclocking, you're running the chip outside of the bounds that it was factory tested with. Based on what I've read, the success rate is 90%+ with reference cards, but if you want to be guaranteed a 6970, it's probably better to buy a 6970.

As far as overclocking 6950 2GB vs. 6970 goes, they're the same chip (and card for reference designs), so they should have the same overclocking potential. Of course, nothing is guaranteed when it comes to overclocking.

Finally, I think that any of the vendors that I listed previously would be fine. Sapphire does make a reference 6950 2GB, but it's OOS at Newegg right now, perhaps permanently.

Is this the Sapphire card you are referring to? I would be ordering from Newegg.ca, and I could not find most or any of the cards you mentioned, but I found this one! Apparently there are several 6950's from Sapphire, the one above being the one that is out of stock at Newegg.com. Out of curiosity, how are you determining which are the reference cards? The only thing I see in common is the cooler.

Thanks for your other thoughts on overclocking and unlocking. Are there any good resources you would recommend for both here at Anandtech or elsewhere?

Thanks!