New battery tech, just what the doctor ordered

[Cogman]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/flow-batteries-0606.html

Looks exciting. I've always said that the main thing holding back the electric car was current battery tech. Here's to hoping this one pans out. While the approach isn't entirely new, the amount of energy they are getting out of this stuff is. They are saying a 10 fold increase over older stuff. With my wikipedia foo, that translates into anywhere from 250 Wh/kg to 750 Wh/kg . In comparison a lion battery ranges from 100-250 W·h/kg . In other words, this thing, at worse, will be about as energy dense as a Lion and at best 3x more energy dense. All with the added benefit of being cheap to produce and a liquid (so gas stations could possibly be revamped to pump in new charged liquid.)

 

[wuliheron]

There has also been considerable progress in creating more conventional batteries that can charge extremely fast. A cellphone that can charge in seconds, a laptop in minutes, and car could possibly charge up to 70% in the time it normally takes to refuel. There is even a new effort to produce the first digital quantum batteries.

http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/n.../24/understanding-digital-quantum-capacitors/

After using the same basic technology for over a hundred years its great news that people are finally making progress in making it significantly cheaper, safer, and more environmentally friendly. A lot of that research is American tax dollars at work in the nanotechnology initiative which is also helping to produce results in solar power.

 

[wirednuts]

actually does sound promising. my dad (mechanic) has been swearing up and down for years now- "batteries are over 100 years old. we cant figure anything else out. its too hard to store electricity, it will never happen"

and i always argued that technology overcomes limitations, and while we have gotten our electronics to SIP on energy, there still isnt enough juice in batteries to keep them going. to me, it MUST mean there is a better way to store electricity. there must be.

the other tech i like is carbon nanotube supercapacitors. if those work as advertised, watch out gas cars! we wont need you at all!

 

[Cogman]

actually does sound promising. my dad (mechanic) has been swearing up and down for years now- "batteries are over 100 years old. we cant figure anything else out. its too hard to store electricity, it will never happen"

and i always argued that technology overcomes limitations, and while we have gotten our electronics to SIP on energy, there still isnt enough juice in batteries to keep them going. to me, it MUST mean there is a better way to store electricity. there must be.

the other tech i like is carbon nanotube supercapacitors. if those work as advertised, watch out gas cars! we wont need you at all!

Well these are the things which I find great about this advance.

• They have a large working sample. This is great because it means that large scale manufacturing shouldn't be TOO difficult (something that has plagued the advancement of most nano-tech.)
• If what I've look up is correct, they are at least as energy dense as current battery tech and possibly much more dense.
• This is preliminary, Even in the paper the researchers say that higher power output could possibly be achieved using different metals.
• Even though this stuff looks like sludge, a liquid battery is much easier to transfer than a solid one. That means for long trips we could stop at a station and quickly swap out our dieing battery fluid.

All and all, assuming the researchers aren't blowing this TOO far out of proportion, and assuming someone invests in this, we could see a big winner of a battery tech. The biggest concern would be "how long does this stuff last".

 

[piasabird]

I have seen some claims by people claiming they can make a battery that can be recharged in 5 minutes. There is one big problem with this. The amount of electrical power running into the batteries would make it impossible with todays available electric delivery systems. That would be too much power dilivered too fast requiring at least 4 or more high current lines. This would also make it extremely dangerous to handle.

A typical electric car may have 20 batteries capable of holding 200amps each for a total of 4,000 amp hours in 5 minutes. That is an awful lot of power awful fast. I took a class on basic conversion design for electric cars and we discussed this topic. It seemed unfeasable with todays standards for electric power circuits.

The interesting thing is that if batteries could be increased in storage capacity by a power of 10, then more batteries could be used to store more power for the same amount of weight/space. This would possibly make the electric vehicle a more realistic option.

 

[wuliheron]

I have seen some claims by people claiming they can make a battery that can be recharged in 5 minutes. There is one big problem with this. The amount of electrical power running into the batteries would make it impossible with todays available electric delivery systems. That would be too much power dilivered too fast requiring at least 4 or more high current lines. This would also make it extremely dangerous to handle.

A typical electric car may have 20 batteries capable of holding 200amps each for a total of 4,000 amp hours in 5 minutes. That is an awful lot of power awful fast. I took a class on basic conversion design for electric cars and we discussed this topic. It seemed unfeasable with todays standards for electric power circuits.

The interesting thing is that if batteries could be increased in storage capacity by a power of 10, then more batteries could be used to store more power for the same amount of weight/space. This would possibly make the electric vehicle a more realistic option.

You taking the idea out of context. In the case of this slurry, the gas station would charge it overnight when power demands on the power station are low. If they had more conventional batteries that could charge and discharge fast, those would also be charged overnight and used to recharge cars as they come in. Nobody is suggesting plugging your car directly into a power transformer.

 

[Cogman]

You taking the idea out of context. In the case of this slurry, the gas station would charge it overnight when power demands on the power station are low. If they had more conventional batteries that could charge and discharge fast, those would also be charged overnight and used to recharge cars as they come in. Nobody is suggesting plugging your car directly into a power transformer.

Well, that's the beauty of this system. You could actually plug in and charge your car. Or, if you are in a hurry you could just replace the slurry. Either way, you would have a lot of control over how you charge and use your car.

This has lots of other applications. Since it is cheaper than Li, it could possibly be used to make renewable energy sources more feasible. You could have a better buffer for unpredictable power like wind and solar.

 

[wirednuts]

the implications are world wide on all levels of society. thats why its hard to imagine battery tech has grown so slow, because if theyre done the way we need it will change the world. literally. if we had good cheap batteries (even with just 3x the capacity we have now, with a 20 year lifespan) then all we would need fossil fuels for is lubrication, and even then we can synthesize that.

and hell yeah, can you imagine if all of our houses had battery banks, and we all had solar collectors? the grid could distribute power evenly while every house contributes a little. we could get rid of nuclear and coal power plants and just pay for the infrastructure.

best of all. your cellphone would last at least two days.

 

[Cogman]

the implications are world wide on all levels of society. thats why its hard to imagine battery tech has grown so slow, because if theyre done the way we need it will change the world. literally. if we had good cheap batteries (even with just 3x the capacity we have now, with a 20 year lifespan) then all we would need fossil fuels for is lubrication, and even then we can synthesize that.

and hell yeah, can you imagine if all of our houses had battery banks, and we all had solar collectors? the grid could distribute power evenly while every house contributes a little. we could get rid of nuclear and coal power plants and just pay for the infrastructure.

best of all. your cellphone would last at least two days.

If I've read the article correctly, it won't scale well to small applications. It seems like the sludge has to be flowing.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Interesting idea. To separate the charging and discharging and then optimizing both from the perspective of current infrastructure. I find it fantastic. Perhaps we have finally the electrical equivalent of Henry Ford.




On a side note, this is interesting :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford

As owner of the Ford Motor Company, he became one of the richest and best-known people in the world. He is credited with "Fordism": mass production of inexpensive goods coupled with high wages for workers. Ford had a global vision, with consumerism as the key to peace. His intense commitment to systematically lowering costs resulted in many technical and business innovations, including a franchise system that put dealerships throughout most of North America and in major cities on six continents.

 

[imagoon]

Neat. Looks like an advanced form of the vanadium batteries in use all over Europe and Asia instead of generators. Vanadium cells can use the same ideas such as the separated charge and discharge areas and storing tanks full of the 'fuel.' I just recall it isn't the most energy dense system but it is great for companies where a power outage = lost millions.