New Apple PowerMac's @ 1.42 Ghz

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by: mjolnir2k

Last time: My point is Apple's are overpriced. Period! That's it, nothing else.
enjoy!

Well, why didin't you say that in the first place?

I am certain Apple will send you a "thank you" card for supporting their 30-60% gross margins.

Actually, they didn't. But they were incredibly nice to me the one time I had to call tech support.


I have a win2k box to my right and my Mac to my left and they pretty much get equal use. It started out being 70/30 in favor of my PC (the Mac was strictly for editing), but over the past 10 months I've found myself using the Mac more and more (just ripped all my CDs w/iTunes in preperation of getting an iPod), but now I'm starting to rant.

If you weren't trying to flame I apologize for accusing you of it. But just as a side note this:

$1,499.00
1GHz PowerPC G4 1MB L3 cache 1 GHz? You gotta be kidding me, right?
256MB DDR266 SDRAM a WHOLE 256MB...whew!
60GB Ultra ATA/100 WOW, ATA 100...cutting edge
Combo drive Well, this makes up for EVERYTHING...NOT!
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX Sweeet, I can finally run the ORIGINAL Doom
64MB DDR video memory See above
FireWire 800 Ok, this is actually nice
56K internal modem Yawn
Bluetooth Ready Nice. It's Bluetooth READY...Only cost me my other arm to make it work

This is about +/- $500 in PC parts IF you could even still find a 1Ghz CPU.

What a JOKE!

Yawn.... Computer in my Sig cost about the same as this piece of Cr@p.

this:

1. an MX video card...jeez, can't wait to fire up any game made this decade and watch it crawl along!
2. 256 MB of SLOW ram...I guess for $1,400 we couldn't expect at LEAST 512MB of their crappy memory!
3. a whole 60GB ATA 100 HDD (did I miss the dynamic shift where HDD's are all of the sudden EXPENSIVE?)

C'mon! What's the justification of that price for this junk?

this:

then please continue to purchase overpriced / overhyped / outdated technology and chide the rest of us for not "getting" it.

Me, I'll stick with what I got and leave the pretty colored baubles to the Apple fanboys.

and this:

(keep shining those rose colored glasses...or is it "berry"?)

Migth be construde as flame bait. Although the last one is pretty witty.


Lethal

 

[mjolnir2k]

Good points all. After reviewing my comments I could have been less inflamatory. I was striving for humor more than anything else.

my original point stands, but I take back the flames.

-mj

 

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by: mjolnir2k
Good points all. After reviewing my comments I could have been less inflamatory. I was striving for humor more than anything else.

my original point stands, but I take back the flames.

-mj

eh, keep the humor just toss in a , , , , or . every now and then. And the more I read it the more I think it's funny,

keep shining those rose colored glasses...or is it "berry"

Lethal

 

[Eug]

I guess apple slashing their prices on some proprietary HW like their Cinema display (now $2k down from $3,500) just says to you that they are consumer friendly, NOT that they were overpriced to begin with! How can you explain such a DRAMATIC price cut without understanding the concept of a DRAMATIC overprice to begin with...maybe it's YOU who "doesn't get it"?

Hey, I was the first to say that the Apple Displays were overpriced (although not any more). That's why I bought a Samsung 172T.

I still find the PowerMacs a bit pricey, but having perused the software and having dealt with PC home-builds, it's not as expensive as it seems, esp. when you consider all the other features built into the PowerMacs (which are lost on you I know).

OTOH, I think there isn't a better Windows laptop in the same price range in existence better than my G4 Titanium PowerBook with DVD burner. The closest thing to it would be the IBM T30 series, but IMO the TiBook still wins hands down.

 

[magomago]

Hrm. I must admit Macs do seem overpriced and I'm going to college and I plan on buying a laptop strictly for typing up essays and I was thinking a Mac b/c of their famed stability...and I hate it when windows crashes on me (its gotten better...its around once every few days...with 98se I swear it was like 3x a day)

but I can't decide because its so cost prohibitive. If Apple was more compeitive pricewise that'd be awsome

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: mjolnir2k

your main concern seemed to be the CPU. PowerPC's are sucky CPU's. Sure they don't get the MHz, but MHz isn't everything. For starters, they have smarter design and they run cool. Smart design wins over raw MHz IMO.

Ok, so I'll give up on the Blue Tooth argument. My point was WHY BOTHER to say that. Let's focus on the rest. Although MHz isn't everything, at some point a VAST difference in performance rating will be noticeable. 1.4GHZ on a 1XX FSB will perform worse than any current AMD / Intel offering at a much higher MHz rating and FSB speeds. Yet the prices are cheaper for the AMD / Intel solution.

I noticed a typo in my post. Of course I meant "PowerPC aren't sucky CPU's" luckily you didn't let that confuse you

But here you go again. You think that MHz = performance. While it just isn't so. MHz is a good way to compare performance inside one CPU-family. You can't use MHz as a comparison between different CPU-families. This is not only apparent in PowerPC's, but in P4/Athlon-comparisons as well. There is alot more to performance that just raw MHz or even FSB-speeds. For starters:

x86 has 8 GP registers (x86-64 has 16). 8 GP registers is PATHETIC! If I remember correctly, G4 has 32 GP-registers.
G4 has more cache
G4 has shorter pipeline that gives it more Instructions per Clockcycle. P4 has a really long pipeline that gives it insane Mhz, but reduces IPC.

And besides, G4 runs cooler than Athlon or P4 and it consumes less power. That is a big thing in laptops for example.

Tell me that the fastest Motorola chip will operate comperably to even Mid Level AMD / Intel chips.

Yes it does. Mid-level AMD chip runs at about 1.6 - 1.7 Ghz. The difference in raw MHz isn't THAT great when compared to fastest G4. (which is 1.42GHz). I would have thought that AMD vs. Intel-competition would have thought you that "MHz isn't everything).

1. an MX video card...jeez, can't wait to fire up any game made this decade and watch it crawl along!

If you want to buy a computer for games, you do NOT buy a Mac.

C'mon! What's the justification of that price for this junk?

Ummmm.... Closely integrated OS and hardware, nice GUI... Hell, if you compare Toyota and BMW, do you understand the price-difference just by looking at the raw numbers? No.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Yes, you're right, somebody has to say it so it might as well be me.
no, someone does not have to say it because everyone else already has, a million times over. your post is redundant and ignorant, like 90% of the rest of the crap being flung in idiot-fest threads such as this one. an apple post on anandtech is about as informative as a bsd post on slashdot at -1.

Do you have any idea how much faster a PC I could make for that price? Ridiculous.
no, why don't you inform us, oh wise pc wizard? don't you think we all know EXACTLY what kind of pc you could build for the same price? duh, of course we do.

i don't love apple, i don't love their prices, but they're ok, depending on what you buy. what i dislike even more than them are people who seem to think that the whole world revolves around flashy numbers, logos, and comparing oneself to everyone else to guage competancy.

 

[mjolnir2k]

But here you go again. You think that MHz = performance. While it just isn't so. MHz is a good way to compare performance inside one CPU-family. You can't use MHz as a comparison between different CPU-families. This is not only apparent in PowerPC's, but in P4/Athlon-comparisons as well. There is alot more to performance that just raw MHz or even FSB-speeds. For starters:

x86 has 8 GP registers (x86-64 has 16). 8 GP registers is PATHETIC! If I remember correctly, G4 has 32 GP-registers.
G4 has more cache
G4 has shorter pipeline that gives it more Instructions per Clockcycle. P4 has a really long pipeline that gives it insane Mhz, but reduces IPC.

And besides, G4 runs cooler than Athlon or P4 and it consumes less power. That is a big thing in laptops for example.

Tell me that the fastest Motorola chip will operate comperably to even Mid Level AMD / Intel chips.

Yes it does. Mid-level AMD chip runs at about 1.6 - 1.7 Ghz. The difference in raw MHz isn't THAT great when compared to fastest G4. (which is 1.42GHz). I would have thought that AMD vs. Intel-competition would have thought you that "MHz isn't everything).

1. an MX video card...jeez, can't wait to fire up any game made this decade and watch it crawl along!

If you want to buy a computer for games, you do NOT buy a Mac.

C'mon! What's the justification of that price for this junk?

Ummmm.... Closely integrated OS and hardware, nice GUI... Hell, if you compare Toyota and BMW, do you understand the price-difference just by looking at the raw numbers? No.

Interesting. I suppose I am short changing the Motorola architecture to some degree as you point out. However, I still do not believe that these chips perform similarly to an Intel or AMD (as has been proven by numerous head to head tests by independant review sites).

What I can't understand is what an apple can do that my computer can't? I have a super stable operating system (win 2k) that has not crashed ever and is easy to use and has a fine GUI. My programs (CAD / Visio / Direct Draw / Photoshop / plus my ripping prog's etc..) all run flawlesly and quickly and if I choose to induge in a game or two I am able to fire it up and get great FPS. Yet, if I understand correctly, an Apple can do this same thing but a bit slower and I shouldn't even bother with the games. So that's my confusion as they are of equal price.

True the AMD v Intel wars do prove that MHz does not equal supremacy, but it does provide a baseline measurement of anticipated performance. As we know many factors come into play to realize peak potential of the CPU and some peripherals will act as bottlenecks to impede this performance. that's why when I look at their choice of Video cards and limited memory I simply see performance impeding hardware. Why not go with an ATI card that can better match the CPU? or include 512 MB of memory (can't imagine trying to get CAD or Photoshop running well with 256 MB, nevermind any Video editiing software). At the wholesale level, the price difference is minute.

Anywho...Thanks for the lessons on architecture. They are informative and I do appreciate learning new things.

Still wouldn't buy an apple tho

pps. Hope you take this set of comments as discussion points and not flames...At least I am learning something, which is the point...No?

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: mjolnir2k
What I can't understand is what an apple can do that my computer can't?

What can BMW do that Toyota can't?

pps. Hope you take this set of comments as discussion points and not flames...At least I am learning something, which is the point...No?

No problem . I'm not a Mac-user nor am I planning to become one. I just acknowledge that the hardware in Macs is pretty impressive, even though it may seem underpowered to us.

 

[Spicedaddy]

What can BMW do that Toyota can't?

Go fast, get chicks...


The Mac is defiintely not fast, and you ain't gonna impress the ladies with a computer.

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: Spicedaddy

What can BMW do that Toyota can't?

Go fast, get chicks...

Toyota goes fast enough. Only place where you MIGHT be really be able to take advantage of BMW's performance is in the Autobahn (that is, if you decide not to break any laws). And purpose of a car is not to get chicks. Anyone who uses his car to get chicks, doesn't need a car, but a penis-extension (and in many cases, that's what BMW is).

The Mac is defiintely not fast

2x 1.42GHz G4's is nothing to sneeze at.

and you ain't gonna impress the ladies with a computer.

I would think that ladies would like mac alot more than a regural Wintel-machine.

 

[Eug]

I suppose I am short changing the Motorola architecture to some degree as you point out. However, I still do not believe that these chips perform similarly to an Intel or AMD (as has been proven by numerous head to head tests by independant review sites).

What I can't understand is what an apple can do that my computer can't? I have a super stable operating system (win 2k) that has not crashed ever and is easy to use and has a fine GUI. My programs (CAD / Visio / Direct Draw / Photoshop / plus my ripping prog's etc..) all run flawlesly and quickly and if I choose to induge in a game or two I am able to fire it up and get great FPS. Yet, if I understand correctly, an Apple can do this same thing but a bit slower and I shouldn't even bother with the games. So that's my confusion as they are of equal price.

With certain apps, a G4 will destroy x86 (eg. RC5). With other apps it will be slower.

The consensus is that on average a G4, MHz for MHz, will be significantly faster than a P4, but maybe not faster than an Athlon (even though Apple claims it is).

And if you don't know what you can't do on a Windows machine that you can on a Mac, then lucky for you. For me, a Windows machine is inadequate. And I don't play games anymore. (If I did I'd own a P4 2.53 GHz with Radeon 9500 Pro or something.)

As for impressing the ladies: The only computer I've ever had that has impressed the ladies is my iBook. Even my TiBook doesn't impress them. Oh and my Toyota impresses them more than my friend's BMW 325i. However, I have the Toyota Prius.

 

[mjolnir2k]

And if you don't know what you can't do on a Windows machine that you can on a Mac, then lucky for you. For me, a Windows machine is inadequate. And I don't play games anymore. (If I did I'd own a P4 2.53 GHz with Radeon 9500 Pro or something.)

Well I wish someone would tell me...I hate not knowing


and easy on the car comments..I actually own a Toyota for Christsakes!

ps. I guarantee my Celica is faster than ANY Mac!!!!!

 

[Eug]

Well I wish someone would tell me...I hate not knowing

eg. I make basic DVDs of footage I've shot myself. I don't want to use the complex $$$ video editing and DVD authoring programs, but all the consumer level software I've tried on the Windows side (free or $$) is not very user friendly, nor very effective.

The combo of iMovie 2 and iDVD 2 has been good however. I can't wait until iMovie 3 and iDVD 3 come out tomorrow. Check out Apple's iLife here.

Actually, if I eventually want higher end stuff, I'd probably stick with Final Cut Express and DVD Studio Pro, both of which are Mac only, and both of which are cheaper than anything remotely as powerful on the Windows side.

And I do ALL of this (including burning the DVD-Rs) with my Mac laptop.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by: mjolnir2k

And if you don't know what you can't do on a Windows machine that you can on a Mac, then lucky for you. For me, a Windows machine is inadequate. And I don't play games anymore. (If I did I'd own a P4 2.53 GHz with Radeon 9500 Pro or something.)

Well I wish someone would tell me...I hate not knowing


and easy on the car comments..I actually own a Toyota for Christsakes!

ps. I guarantee my Celica is faster than ANY Mac!!!!!

LOL

For an obvious, and personal, answer i'd say, "You can't run FCP on a PC." But I know that's not what you were really asking. For me, at least, it's not as much *what* is done but *how* it's done. Like I mentioned a few posts back over the 8 months or so that I've had my Mac I've slowly started to use it more and more. In the begining part of the appeal was that it was something different and new. But the more I used it the more I liked it. Then I started messing around w/some of the iApps and it was all so simple and inntuitive I was just like "wow." For example, after spending 15 minutes walking thru the iDVD tutorial I made a multi-menued DVD that had a custom motion background, custom music, and to start the movies you clicked on a still image taken from the movie you want to see. All that took me ~30 minutes and was mostly drag 'n drop. I then clicked "burn", popped in my DVD blank, and that's all she wrote. Now that I know what I'm doing, and using that menu as a template, I could probably make another menu in less than 10 minutes w/different music, different background, and different still images (and things will just get better w/iDVD 3 about to come out). Now, can you make DVDs on PCs? Of course. And is there more powerful DVD authoring software out there? Yes, on both platforms. But can you find a program as powerful and easy to use as iDVD? I doubt it.

I find the current Mac environment to be more inntuitive and astheticaly pleasing than it's x86 counterpart. Will everyone have the same opnion, or even care? No. And I think this is where the "get it" schism comes into play sense much of what Apple offers that the x86 world doesn't are things that can't be quantified or benchmarked. PC users want benchmarks, Apple users list things that can't be benchmarked, PC users think apple users are full of sh*t and ask for benchmarks again, Apple users lament PC users don't get it, PC users get pissed off 'cause they think they just got ripped on, and ask for benchmarks... From there it usually turns into a flame war.

Honestly I never wanted to own a Mac. I really hadn't used Macs until I got to college and we had both Macs and PCs running Avid software in our edit lab. By the time my senior year rolled I found myself waiting around until 1 or 2 am for a 4 year old Mac to open up rather than use a 1 year old PC at 8pm. The PCs weren't bad, really, but some of their "quirks" just irritated the hell out of me. It's kinda like having to brush snow off yer car in the winter. It's not a big deal, but havin' to do it every day, or 2 or 3 times in a day, just gets damn annoying. Once I graduated I built myself a PC running Premiere so I could edit on my own time. I'd looked at Macs, but figured I'd save some money. After it was all said and done I probably had 2k invested in my editing rig, and she ran like a charm. Premiere and my Matrox RT2500 capture card did everything I asked of them. It wasn't always fun, and some sh*t just irrirated the hell outta me (especially that d@mn UI), but the end product was always what I needed. About 8 or 9 months later I was bored at work and screwed around w/FCP 2. After about 15 minutes I was like "holy sh$t I want this program." I waited a few months for Apple to update their line and then spent about 2x as much on my Mac as I did on my PC. And even though my Mac was purchased as a work machine I've been wanting to use it for personal things more and more. Currently the only thing that really attracts me to PCs is the ability to build 'n tweak, and I guess superior gaming, but I haven't gamed all that much since I got outta school. Currently i'm saving up for an iPod and either an iBook or a 12" Powerbook (just something to small to handle word, internet, etc.). I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years all I have are Macs. I enjoy computing on a Mac, I'm pretty indifferent to computing on a PC, and with how much time I spend computing I'd rather enjoy it than be indifferent.

I know I ranted on kinda long, but it's hard to show or describe what the "it" in "get it" is, so hopefully my rambling story will give you an insight or idea of where I'm coming from.


Lethal

EDIT: clairty

 

[mjolnir2k]

And now I know.

Jeez, reading Lethal's exposition made my head grow a full 2 hat sizes

 

[gsiener]

Amen Lethal- well put!