New Analysis of Peer Reviewed Climate Change Articles Reinforces Disbelief in Man

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Sep 12, 2004
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Instead why don't you give me one good testable issue with MMGW.

Are you a skeptic or a denier?
You seem to be shifting the goalposts of the thread. Is it still about GW or are you now refocusing it to AGW?

Personally I believe there is an AGW component to GW. Is it a greater or lesser component? That's the real question and currently there is no real concensus on that question.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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You seem to be shifting the goalposts of the thread. Is it still about GW or are you now refocusing it to AGW?

Personally I believe there is an AGW component to GW. Is it a greater or lesser component? That's the real question and currently there is no real concensus on that question.

I had originally meant to keep it on climate change. But I have been assured that everyone believes its happening.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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I had originally meant to keep it on climate change. But I have been assured that everyone believes its happening.
If someone disagrees with GW they are welcome to speak up. So far, nobody has. I am still waiting to hear from this vast group of deniers you so steadfastly rail against.
 

Poptech

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Aug 31, 2007
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So you don't know. Just say so.
I do know as I just gave you the definition. Did you fail to read it?

A skeptic has a definable consistent and testable issue with a theory, test or methodology. Upon test or evidence a skeptic will either confirm his suspicion or drop his skepticism.
Please provide a dictionary that includes this definition.

I am a skeptic because I do not believe there is reproducible empirical research that supports AGW theory but cannot be explained by other causes, such as natural variability.

So you spammed a bunch links that smacks of whining about being called names.

Instead why don't you give me one good testable issue with MMGW.
Extensively supporting my argument with sources is not spamming. MMGW is not a scientific term.

Are you a skeptic or a denier?
How can I be an ad hominem?
 

Poptech

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Aug 31, 2007
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The one that shows a large increase in temperature over the past hundred years?
Large increase in temperature? That is a matter of perspective,

Alarmist
Silly+-+NASS+GISS+Global+Land-Ocean+Temperature+Index+%281880-2009%29.jpg


Skeptic
NASS+GISS+Global+Land-Ocean+Temperature+Index+%281880-2009%29.jpg
 

monovillage

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Jul 3, 2008
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Do you know anything about climate or science in general? I mean at all?

You're the one denying the reality and the science, not me. There has been no statistically significant warming over the last 15 years and you know it, but keep wiggling. I notice you won't even show a graph of it.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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You're the one denying the reality and the science, not me. There has been no statistically significant warming over the last 15 years and you know it, but keep wiggling. I notice you won't even show a graph of it.

You're nuts. If that were true, then please explain how it could possibly be that 14 of the 15 warmest years on record have occurred in the last 15 years (and the only year from the last 15 - 2000 - outside of the top 15 is 18th on the list)?

http://truecostblog.com/2012/09/09/list-of-warmest-years-on-record-globally/

What you're claiming is a mathematical impossibility.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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I do know as I just gave you the definition. Did you fail to read it?


Please provide a dictionary that includes this definition.

I am a skeptic because I do not believe there is reproducible empirical research that supports AGW theory but cannot be explained by other causes, such as natural variability.


Extensively supporting my argument with sources is not spamming. MMGW is not a scientific term.


How can I be an ad hominem?
Scientific skepticism

Main article: Scientific skepticism
A scientific (or empirical) skeptic is one who questions beliefs on the basis of scientific understanding. Most scientists, being scientific skeptics, test the reliability of certain kinds of claims by subjecting them to a systematic investigation using some form of the scientific method.[10] As a result, a number of claims are considered "pseudoscience" if they are found to improperly apply or ignore the fundamental aspects of the scientific method. Scientific skepticism may discard beliefs pertaining to things outside perceivable observation and thus outside the realm of systematic, empirical falsifiability/testability.

AGW and GW are both observable and their respective theories are falsifiable. The author of the analysis references 13000+ articles supporting AGW, GW or both.

How many scientific tests need to be performed until you are no longer skeptical? Is the number different depending on their findings?

For mono he was doubtful about GW because some guy on a website said these 1100 papers maybe skeptical of GW, something he said he believe is happening and the author of the analysis in my OP said was supported by 13000+ articles.
 

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Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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Can you tell me how grain production faired in the Midwest during hot dry periods on your graph, (from -1400 to -600)?

Also what is the scale on your Y axis?

Completely agree that reduced solar output and higher albedo from volcanic particulates has a cooling effect.

So why are we still having record breaking temps when the chart I posted showed a significant drop on solar output?
 
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Nov 30, 2006
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Can you tell me how grain production faired in the Midwest during hot dry periods on your graph, (from -1400 to -600)?

Also what is the scale on your Y axis?

Completely agree that reduced solar output and higher albedo from volcanic particulates has a cooling effect.

So why are we still having record breaking temps when the chart I posted showed a significant drop on solar output?
The intent of linking that chart was to illustrate natural variability of our climate. I don't see the relevance of regional Midwest grain production when discussing global temperature trends...what is your rationale for asking this question?

The Y-axis is temperature. That's an odd question as well.

I'm glad we can agree that solar irradiance and albedo are 2 significant variables that affect our climate.

I don't understand your last question...although still on a rising trend line, global temperatures have remained relatively flat since the mid-90s.

12month_runav_1850on_20120126_normal.png
 
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Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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The intent of linking that chart was to illustrate natural variability of our climate. I don't see the relevance of regional Midwest grain production when discussing global temperature trends...what is your rationale for asking this question?

The message I think you are trying to send with this chart is that climate has changed naturally in the past, people dealt with it, why worry? Well we have a lot more infrastructure now, including crops in the Midwest. Changing climate that negatively effects farming and industry is expensive in terms of business time and lives. GW is not just finding homes for polar bears.

The Y-axis is temperature. That's an odd question as well.

I was actually asking what the scale is? I realize it temperature, but without a scale I don't know if we're looking at changes around some average temp. If so what average? Or is it absolute temp. It makes a difference.
I'm glad we can agree that solar irradiance and albedo are 2 significant variables that affect our climate.

I don't understand your last question...although still on a rising trend line, global temperatures have remained relatively flat since the mid-90s.

My point is the solar input dropped for the last 5 years which according to the note on your chart should have a cooling effect. Instead we maintained the higher temperatures.

12month_runav_1850on_20120126_normal.png


See above
 

Poptech

Member
Aug 31, 2007
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www.populartechnology.net
Scientific skepticism

Main article: Scientific skepticism
A scientific (or empirical) skeptic is one who questions beliefs on the basis of scientific understanding. Most scientists, being scientific skeptics, test the reliability of certain kinds of claims by subjecting them to a systematic investigation using some form of the scientific method.[10] As a result, a number of claims are considered "pseudoscience" if they are found to improperly apply or ignore the fundamental aspects of the scientific method. Scientific skepticism may discard beliefs pertaining to things outside perceivable observation and thus outside the realm of systematic, empirical falsifiability/testability.
I said a dictionary NOT wikipedia which can be edited by anyone with an Internet connection. Now can you please provide a definition from a dictionary and include the link.

The author of the analysis references 13000+ articles supporting AGW, GW or both.
Are you aware of what you are referencing? Powell claimed 13000+ articles included the phrases "global warming" or "global climate change." It was not shown they supported anything at all.

Answer these questions,

1. Do the 13,000+ articles all explicitly support AGW?

2. Are all of the 13,000+ articles peer-reviewed?

For mono he was doubtful about GW because some guy on a website said these 1100 papers maybe skeptical of GW, something he said he believe is happening and the author of the analysis in my OP said was supported by 13000+ articles.
Please quote what the 1100+ list says as it makes no such claim, are you even reading this discussion?

Quote what the author (Powell) said as he made no such claim either.

You keep fabricating strawman arguments.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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I have to say, the OP is being a complete jackass in his posts... and monovillage wasn't being any less of one for most of the thread.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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I have to say, the OP is being a complete jackass in his posts... and monovillage wasn't being any less of one for most of the thread.

:thumbsup:

I'll tone down the douchebaggery. Doesn't help anyone.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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The message I think you are trying to send with this chart is that climate has changed naturally in the past, people dealt with it, why worry? Well we have a lot more infrastructure now, including crops in the Midwest. Changing climate that negatively effects farming and industry is expensive in terms of business time and lives. GW is not just finding homes for polar bears.

Yes, my point in posting the chart was to show naturally occurring climate variabilty. However, it was not posted to trivialize potential impact on climate change to our planet. Since you seem to be somewhat informed on this subject...do you think our current scientific understanding thoroughly explains the mechanisms that cause micro and macro climate variations?

global_temp2.jpg


I was actually asking what the scale is? I realize it temperature, but without a scale I don't know if we're looking at changes around some average temp. If so what average? Or is it absolute temp. It makes a difference.

On the right hand side of the graph you get an indication of scale (low 54.3F at the nadir of the Little Ice Age and a 58.3F apex in 1998). The average appears to be taken as the average of all the data over the past 2500 years.

My point is the solar input dropped for the last 5 years which according to the note on your chart should have a cooling effect. Instead we maintained the higher temperatures.

I think there is much that we don't understand about solar irradiance, solar winds, magnetic fields, and GRC and their affects on our climate.
 
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Lifer
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Yes, my point in posting the chart was to show naturally occurring climate variabilty. However, it was not posted to trivialize potential impact on climate change to our planet. Since you seem to be somewhat informed on this subject...do you think our current scientific understanding thoroughly explains the mechanisms that cause micro and macro climate variations?

global_temp2.jpg




On the right hand side of the graph you get an indication of scale (low 54.3F at the nadir of the Little Ice Age and a 58.3F apex in 1998). The average appears to be taken as the average of all the data over the past 2500 years.



I think there is much that we don't understand about solar irradiance, solar winds, magnetic fields, and GRC and their affects on our climate.

I'll try and answer, but I'm not sure what's the difference between macro and micro variation.

The basic science is strictly a heat-mass transfer problem. Q in on the Earth has to equal Q out or the imbalance will drive a temperature change.

I feel the science is very settled on the output of the sun, not being the primary driver behind the observed changes in temperature over the period of time we've had satellites monitoring the sun. I've pointed very large solar arrays at the sun for the last 12 years and variance in solar irradiance is a non-factor.

Now I'm not saying that it couldn't be or hasn't been in the past just that it is not currently the driver in the temperature increase seen since the 50's.

The same goes for the albedo of the Earth, the Q out if you will. We can measure that and so I think the science shows that's a slam dunk driver for increasing global temperatures.

I think where the science is not settled or at least requires more work is how the Earth responds to the energy imbalance.

If I put a cold glass of water in the sun and measure the temperature it's going to increase.

If I put a cold glass of ice and water in the sun and measure the temperature, it will be a much more complicated temperature trend. The ice will tend to inhibit the rise in temperature as it melts but it will also cause mixing of the cold ice water and the warmer surrounding water until the ice is gone and the temperature starts to rise like the first glass.

The Earth is like the second glass only much more complicated as I'm sure you agree. Figuring out how that works is very complicated. I don't think we have a good model for predicting what the temperature will be in any given year. I do think we have the gross trends correct.

As for whether its anthropological or not. It's not hard to measure the composition of the air. It's not hard to test for what wavelengths each of those chemicals absorb and reradiate as heat.

For solar radiance as I've said we measure that on a day to day basis. It's a known quantity over the last 60 years. While magnetic fields and solar wind can transfer some energy they are still driven by the sun and we know that the largest order of magnitude of power is released in the form of light.

I'll have to check up on GRC, I'm not familiar with that.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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GRC was a typo...should be GCR (Glactic Cosmic Rays). Recent research indicates they are apparently a factor in cloud formation. I'll try to respond to the rest of your post later.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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GRC was a typo...should be GCR (Glactic Cosmic Rays). Recent research indicates they are apparently a factor in cloud formation. I'll try to respond to the rest of your post later.

Ah, cloud formations would affect albedo and could lessen or worsen heat retention. But we've been taking pictures of the Earth for last 60 years too. So it shouldn't be hard to find a trend in relative cloud cover, compared to GCR received and plotted against global temperatures.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Ah, cloud formations would affect albedo and could lessen or worsen heat retention. But we've been taking pictures of the Earth for last 60 years too. So it shouldn't be hard to find a trend in relative cloud cover, compared to GCR received and plotted against global temperatures.
I believe it's much more complex than that. Anyway...a recent paper in the Journal of Climate finds that global cloudiness has decreased over the past 39 years. Global average cloud cover appears to be declining at about 0.4% per decade.

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI-D-12-00280.1