Never ever give them an inch.

[imported_Shivetya]

The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

 

[Bumrush99]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

Good for you. You might not care if your personal liberties are breached, but millions of Americans do care.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?

 

[Bumrush99]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?

The reference to Mcarthyism does not apply here. We are talking about an area that is at a high risk of being attacked. Using technology to track suspicous vehicles is NOT THE DAMN equivilant of launching a lynch mob to shake down people that may or not have a DIFFERENT POLITICAL belief than you. This is not about politics or freedom of speech, its about having an ELEMENT within your culture that has repeatedly attempted to kill and maim civilians. Is this the situation we want to be in? Hell f*ck no. But what other options do agencies have to mitigate the threat that is posed? Would you prefer if these actions are done in a covert manner, or is it more respectable for this to be part of a popular debate?

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

Plenty of law abiding citizens in Stalinist Russia had a not so irrational fear of government.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?

The reference to Mcarthyism does not apply here. We are talking about an area that is at a high risk of being attacked. Using technology to track suspicous vehicles is NOT THE DAMN equivilant of launching a lynch mob to shake down people that may or not have a DIFFERENT POLITICAL belief than you. This is not about politics or freedom of speech, its about having an ELEMENT within your culture that has repeatedly attempted to kill and maim civilians. Is this the situation we want to be in? Hell f*ck no. But what other options do agencies have to mitigate the threat that is posed? Would you prefer if these actions are done in a covert manner, or is mor respectable for this to part of a popular debate?

Please move to Cuba or China if you want to be monitored every day of the week.

 

[Bumrush99]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

Plenty of law abiding citizens in Stalinist Russia had a not so irrational fear of government.

Right, because watching potential targets or tracking suspicous behavior will lead to the collapse of our capitalist democracy...

 

[Bumrush99]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?

The reference to Mcarthyism does not apply here. We are talking about an area that is at a high risk of being attacked. Using technology to track suspicous vehicles is NOT THE DAMN equivilant of launching a lynch mob to shake down people that may or not have a DIFFERENT POLITICAL belief than you. This is not about politics or freedom of speech, its about having an ELEMENT within your culture that has repeatedly attempted to kill and maim civilians. Is this the situation we want to be in? Hell f*ck no. But what other options do agencies have to mitigate the threat that is posed? Would you prefer if these actions are done in a covert manner, or is mor respectable for this to part of a popular debate?

Please move to Cuba or China if you want to be monitored every day of the week.

Yup, I'm sure the government is going to monitor my every move, I hear they like to track people who walk their dogs 3 times a day and watch HBO.. I'm terrified.

 

[jackace]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

Good for you. You might not care if your personal liberties are breached, but millions of Americans do care.

agreed. Our founding fathers had seen how governments with this type of power breed corruption. That is why they gave us these personal liberties.

For those of you saying we have nothing to fear, I caution you to read history. It's all right there. If we do not learn from our ancestors mistakes and even mistakes in the last century we are doomed to repeat those same mistakes.

 

[Phokus]

Looks like the terrorist won in Great Britain too

 

[Kwaipie]

Where is the hew and cry in the US regarding warrantless wiretaps, the FBI's Carnivore project etc? Better to know you're being watched than to not know.

 

[CanOWorms]

Why do you people hate their culture so much? Let the peasants be monitored by their inbred Overlord and her minions.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

You'll find out what's wrong with it one day when you are 'suspected' of doing something. Then you will come to value the idea of innocent until proven guilty. Your blind faith in law enforcement is an appalling display of ignorance and simply tells me that you haven't had much interaction with cops.

 

[Vic]

There is nothing wrong with government... as long as it is democratically controlled and kept strictly in check to prevent abuses. The people should be in control of their government, and that government should serve the people, not the other ways around.

These "irrational fear" straw men arguments really irk me. You basically take thousands of years of history of tyranny and murder and pretend they never existed. Next thing you know you're going to complain about obvious government abuses, like George Bush and the Iraq War, on one hand while demanding for absolute government control over those evil corporations and and for universal health care at the same time.
Oh... wait...

:roll:

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Vic
There is nothing wrong with government... as long as it is democratically controlled and kept strictly in check to prevent abuses. The people should be in control of their government, and that government should serve the people, not the other ways around.

These "irrational fear" straw men arguments really irk me. You basically take thousands of years of history of tyranny and murder and pretend they never existed. Next thing you know you're going to complain about obvious government abuses, like George Bush and the Iraq War, on one hand while demanding for absolute government control over those evil corporations and and for universal health care at the same time.
Oh... wait...

:roll:

There's nothing wrong with regulation to protect consumers.

 

[Bumrush99]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Bumrush99
This irrational fear of government amazes me... If I am a law abiding citizen who carries no grudges against the government and who is not involved in plots to kill civilians, why should I give a crap if the government tracks suspicous vehicles? Why do people always take a nugget of information like the one provided above and assume that all of our personal liberties are going to be breached?

You'll find out what's wrong with it one day when you are 'suspected' of doing something. Then you will come to value the idea of innocent until proven guilty. Your blind faith in law enforcement is an appalling display of ignorance and simply tells me that you haven't had much interaction with cops.

Thankfully I haven't. I have not put myself in a position to have to deal with cops on a regualar basis.

And your cop analogy has NOTHING to do with the discussion. Corrupt cops and bad law enforcement practices circumvent the law, and in most cases are against the law. Racism towards blacks, or whatever turned you against the cops is an unfortunante reality that NO law can enforce, unless you want an entire army of additional law enforcement agents monitoring every metro cop in the country.

Sorry for your negative experiences, I respect cops, especially if I know that I did something wrong.
(if I'm driving 90 MPH in a 55 zone and get pulled over, I'm not going to bitch like a little girl or take an aggressive attitude towards the cop. Just like I have to do my job on a daily basis, so do he.. Being aggressive towards them is a stupid attitude, better to swallow pride then to put yourself in a dangerous situation)

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Vic
There is nothing wrong with government... as long as it is democratically controlled and kept strictly in check to prevent abuses. The people should be in control of their government, and that government should serve the people, not the other ways around.

These "irrational fear" straw men arguments really irk me. You basically take thousands of years of history of tyranny and murder and pretend they never existed. Next thing you know you're going to complain about obvious government abuses, like George Bush and the Iraq War, on one hand while demanding for absolute government control over those evil corporations and and for universal health care at the same time.
Oh... wait...

:roll:

There's nothing wrong with regulation to protect consumers.

One could argue that the camera's are the same thing. Just something to protect the consumer (people).

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Vic
There is nothing wrong with government... as long as it is democratically controlled and kept strictly in check to prevent abuses. The people should be in control of their government, and that government should serve the people, not the other ways around.

These "irrational fear" straw men arguments really irk me. You basically take thousands of years of history of tyranny and murder and pretend they never existed. Next thing you know you're going to complain about obvious government abuses, like George Bush and the Iraq War, on one hand while demanding for absolute government control over those evil corporations and and for universal health care at the same time.
Oh... wait...

:roll:

:thumbsup:

It amazes me how easily people will sacrifice their personal liberty.

Another reason why I will never vote for an authoritarian politician (i.e. Rudy) or big government hack (i.e., Billary).

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Corrupt cops and bad law enforcement practices circumvent the law, and in most cases are against the law.

Funny.....but I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was illegal to listen in on private citizens' conversations or read their mail (or e-mail in this case) without obtaining a warrant first. Something about habeas corpus comes to mind also.

But I see your point, just do nothing wrong and the government will function within the constructs of the framework of our nation at all times. :roll:

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Vic
There is nothing wrong with government... as long as it is democratically controlled and kept strictly in check to prevent abuses. The people should be in control of their government, and that government should serve the people, not the other ways around.

These "irrational fear" straw men arguments really irk me. You basically take thousands of years of history of tyranny and murder and pretend they never existed. Next thing you know you're going to complain about obvious government abuses, like George Bush and the Iraq War, on one hand while demanding for absolute government control over those evil corporations and and for universal health care at the same time.
Oh... wait...

:roll:

:thumbsup:

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Vic
There is nothing wrong with government... as long as it is democratically controlled and kept strictly in check to prevent abuses. The people should be in control of their government, and that government should serve the people, not the other ways around.

These "irrational fear" straw men arguments really irk me. You basically take thousands of years of history of tyranny and murder and pretend they never existed. Next thing you know you're going to complain about obvious government abuses, like George Bush and the Iraq War, on one hand while demanding for absolute government control over those evil corporations and and for universal health care at the same time.
Oh... wait...

:roll:

:thumbsup:

It amazes me how easily people will sacrifice their personal liberty.

Another reason why I will never vote for an authoritarian politician (i.e. Rudy) or big government hack (i.e., Billary).

Those two scare me the most as well. :thumbsup:

 

[Starbuck1975]

Good for you. You might not care if your personal liberties are breached, but millions of Americans do care.

I fail to see how tracking vehicles for patterns of suspicious behavior is an invasion of personal liberty.

There are security cameras outside most business establishments...is it an invasion of privacy that cameras track our every move going into and out of these establishments? I think not. But if I am at an ATM, and some thug robs me at gunpoint, or worse, that security camera footage sure might come in handy for apprehending the criminal.

are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?

When in doubt play the Communism card...or the Hitler card...whichever is most convenient.

Plenty of law abiding citizens in Stalinist Russia had a not so irrational fear of government.

We are a far cry from Stalinist Russia, where the government abused its control and bred fear to eliminate political adversaries...our society still has a system of checks and balances to ensure that government does not infringe upon personal liberties in protecting its citizens from tangible threats.

agreed. Our founding fathers had seen how governments with this type of power breed corruption. That is why they gave us these personal liberties.

Hence the system of checks and balances, and the need for free elections...the Republicans Congress got out of control in allowing the Executive to overstep its Constitutional powers, and the American people held them accountable for it.

You'll find out what's wrong with it one day when you are 'suspected' of doing something. Then you will come to value the idea of innocent until proven guilty. Your blind faith in law enforcement is an appalling display of ignorance and simply tells me that you haven't had much interaction with cops.

Your knee jerk reaction to law enforcement abuse is no more justifiable than those who are willing to sacrifice all personal liberties out of fear of terrorism...there is a delicate balance between government protection and government abuse, but one our society has managed to keep in check.

I have had my fair share of encounters with cops, mostly due to poor driving on my part...I have had experiences where the police reaction in terms of intimidation was not proportional to my driving infractions, but I don't hold contempt towards all police due to a few bad experiences.

 

[Bumrush99]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Good for you. You might not care if your personal liberties are breached, but millions of Americans do care.

I fail to see how tracking vehicles for patterns of suspicious behavior is an invasion of personal liberty.

There are security cameras outside most business establishments...is it an invasion of privacy that cameras track our every move going into and out of these establishments? I think not. But if I am at an ATM, and some thug robs me at gunpoint, or worse, that security camera footage sure might come in handy for apprehending the criminal.

are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?

When in doubt play the Communism card...or the Hitler card...whichever is most convenient.

Plenty of law abiding citizens in Stalinist Russia had a not so irrational fear of government.

We are a far cry from Stalinist Russia, where the government abused its control and bred fear to eliminate political adversaries...our society still has a system of checks and balances to ensure that government does not infringe upon personal liberties in protecting its citizens from tangible threats.

agreed. Our founding fathers had seen how governments with this type of power breed corruption. That is why they gave us these personal liberties.

Hence the system of checks and balances, and the need for free elections...the Republicans Congress got out of control in allowing the Executive to overstep its Constitutional powers, and the American people held them accountable for it.

You'll find out what's wrong with it one day when you are 'suspected' of doing something. Then you will come to value the idea of innocent until proven guilty. Your blind faith in law enforcement is an appalling display of ignorance and simply tells me that you haven't had much interaction with cops.

Your knee jerk reaction to law enforcement abuse is no more justifiable than those who are willing to sacrifice all personal liberties out of fear of terrorism...there is a delicate balance between government protection and government abuse, but one our society has managed to keep in check.

I have had my fair share of encounters with cops, mostly due to poor driving on my part...I have had experiences where the police reaction in terms of intimidation was not proportional to my driving infractions, but I don't hold contempt towards all police due to a few bad experiences.

Nice post. Lets see someone refute what Starbuck said point by point without having to resort to calling him a commie or lover of authoritarian government.

 

[Modelworks]

"give them an inch and they will take a mile"