Networking and Education?

[netsysadmin]

Ok guys I know this is a little off topic, though I know there are a lot of networking people here on this board that have some good opinions. I need some education advice that will help me in the future. Right now I am trying to decide whether or not I should bother trying to get an AS or a Bachelors degree. Unfortunately I started my career in TV work and I did not feel that a degree would benefit me. I have since (years back) gotten into computers and I now wonder if I made the right decision about my degree?

Let me give you a little background about me before you make a decision. I am a MCSE in NT & 2000(definitely not a paper MCSE). Right now I am a Systems Admin at a large well known college which mainly uses 2003 Server, AD, Exchange 2003, SQL...etc. I have been working at this job for roughly five months now and I plan to stay for a while. I have the possibility of moving up to a Network Manager in the future. My prior positions have been a Systems Admin at another large school running Server 2000 and AD and also Windows NT server for over four years and prior to that I did Desktop Support for a little over four years at a television station.

Now I know that wont tell you a ton about me, but I am tying to give a brief synopsis. What I am trying to decide now is at my age (34) if it is worth it to pursue a degree? If I tried to go back and get a bachelors degree at a four year school it would take me forever going part time (8 years?). I thought about doing a two year degree, though I am doubting if it is worth it since it will be from a local community college? I also considering something like Strayer University, but I wonder if someone (hiring manager) would laugh at that and dismiss it as not a real school. Another side of me says to just concentrate on widening my knowledge, such as getting a CCNA or specializing in security?CISSP or GSEC maybe?

Oh and one last thing to add. I see myself as someone who likes to be hands on with the equipment. I don?t think I would want to be the IT Director stuck in the office all day doing budgets?etc. I like to think I could move on to an Engineers position sometime in the future. I think that would move me up in the IT world, though keep me working on the gear and out of the office.

Right now I am somewhat confused and could use some direction!

John

 

[EULA]

You could also just lie about your degree if you feel that's what's "holding you back" ... many places don't even check anymore...

 

[netsysadmin]

Wow thats not really the answer I was looking for!

Hey guys I was hoping that some of the long time people here, such as spidey, nweaver, scottmac, cmetz, rebatemonger...etc would answer this post.

Than guys!!

John

 

[blemoine]

an education can never hurt you. whether it is necessary or not is another thing. some empolyers think its important and some don't. it really depends on who is doing the hiring. i would say go back and get the degree it may help open up other things for you.

 

[spidey07]

A degree really helps. Many positions require it. Doesn't really matter what school IMHO.

As fars as career direction - that's up to you.

I will say that "hands on" is more of a technitian role and doesn't pay very well, or better put - hits a ceiling quickly. Designers, architechts, consulting and able to merge buesiness and technology are very worthwhile. For what I do I have to remain deeply technical but that's more on the "how does a network work" and understanding exactly how a technology operates and how it interoperates with other technologies, but I don't touch the gear much these days. Unless it's something new and I have to know how best to apply it for a given design/architecture.

For example I'm messing with Cisco's centralized wireless - appliance based controllers and the blades for the 6500 line. In doing so I'm responsible for setting an overall strategy for migration, implementation and security depending on the size and requirements. So in this instance there is some hands on - but the actual implementation will be carried out by other people. I just play architect/SME role.

 

[netsysadmin]

Well I was figuring you were going to say a degree would be beneficial. Which one would be ideal? 2 year / 4 year? At a local community college, Strayer University...etc? Keep in mind I would be working a full time job while in school.

Thanks for the info!

John

 

[ScottMac]

Well, right off the bat, I'd say go for a four year degree, no matter how long it takes you to get it. There are a number of "online universities" you could try, but I don't know what their standing would be compared to a B&M university.

I do not have a degree. I've never been to colleg (though I did teach some EMT/Paramedic classes here & there at some colleges).

As a matter of fact, I graduated high school (Class of 1973) solidly in the middle of the lower third ... and that was the end of my formal education. Four+ years in the Navy (HospitalCorpsman) settled me down some, and after that it was just a matter of being at the right place at the right time. I''m doing pretty well compared to others, but in many ways it came down to blind luck.

It seems to be the trend that more and more employers are requiring degrees. Before my current gig, I interviewed at a place ... got to the third interview (was going to be hired) ... and they asked for my college records (that I'd obviously forgotten to include with my resume). When I told them I didn't have the degree, that was the end of the story. They apologized and promptly booted me.

In some places, having a degree is necessary if you want to advance. I also prefer hands-on, when I can get it. But there's some difference between the "Rack & Stack" side of "hands on" and design, planning, troubleshooting side of "hands-on." I think you'll find more degree'd people on the design, planning, and troubleshooting side. Some places will pay you more, just because you have a degree.

While you may feel pretty secure where you are, and they may like you a lot, all it takes is a buyout, or new leadership, and your job is at risk. Having a degree, pretty much any degree, helps.

I've considered giving higher education a shot (at 51), but can't seem to squeeze the time into my schedule. Maybe next semester I can start with something easy and work my way in ....

FWIW

Scott

 

[nweaver]

speaking with my HS Diploma in hand (all I got) I am thinking a degree is benificial. We don't care here at my place, but I have been out of the running for other jobs based on not having a degree. I know of places that ignored me, and hired someone I knew didn't know as much as I did, simply because they had the degree.

saying that...experience is the linch pin, we would much rather get the guy who has the experience every time.

 

[Genx87]

A degree is good for getting you past the hiring managers pile o resumes.
I dont think many companies except for your first job care that much about grades ect, just that you have a degree. Then they look at the experience. Of course you will find the rare manager who doesnt care but most are looking for a degree.

 

[TC10284]

I am actually having a similar problem as you John/netsysadmin. I am a little younger (almost 22) and less experienced however. I will try to explain. I do have much experience. Without going into lots of detail about my experience (plus I have to type this quick because classes start tomorrow and I need to get to sleep soon), it is in hardware (workstations and servers), SOHO networking, and just the other day (August 11th) I passed the CCNA cert. (thanks to the CCNA 1-4 courses at my local community college with an A in every semester and thanks to TestKing, hehe). I have two AAS degrees from my local community college (www.davidsonccc.edu); one in Information Systems Technology and the other in Networking Technology. I am not really into programming but I haven't really been exposed to it. I am more of a hands on person like yourself. I don't want to be sitting in an office budgeting and such either.
I am working toward atleast a BS or MS but I face a problem. I was homeschooled and didn't takes classes that really applied or appealed to a university here in N.C. I am taking those transfer courses now, but it will probably put me at around 3.5 years at a two year school because of those types of screw ups and not knowing that an AAS wouldn't apply to a university like an AS degree would. I have maintained a 3.86 GPA with currently 87 credit hours. I feel like I am getting NO WHERE fast =(. I feel like I can't see the end of the tunnel =/
I have been SO burnt out on school lately and I just want to find a job. Unfortunately, this area sucks and I'm going to have to move to Greensboro, Raleigh, Charlotte, Winston-Salem, etc. to find a decent job.

Anyway, I have been wondering some of the same things you are. I am wanting atleast a BS degree, but I'm wondering if it's worth it now, and just to focus on getting more experience and certifications. I've heard that any Cisco cert really helps (I hope for my sake at least).
I've also been wondering about those degrees from online universities. I am looking into the BS in Information Technology with an emphasis in networking from East Carolina University. They have a program for people with an AAS and even have an advanced program for people that have their CCNA. I am just afraid that businesses and companies hiring will laugh at my degree if they read what it is or where it's from. My other problem is that universities such as North Carolina State has a huge programming emphasis for their Computer Science and Computer Engineering degrees. Most other universities I look at are the same way.

I don't know about you, but it sort of makes me feel better to know that I'm not alone, at least with some things.

I hope none of this was too random. I have people messaging me on GAIM :Q

 

[netsysadmin]

To add to my misery the schools like Devry are charging around $55,000 for a bachelor?s degree. I guess you pay for convenience huh? If this schools were highly regarded I would be OK with dropping that kind of money, but I am concerned that someone will dismiss my degree because of the school it is from. The scary thing about that is I just spent $55,000 for it!

John

 

[nweaver]

CCNA isn't worth much, but you should be able to jump to an *NP without much effort, and those are worth some. I don't even have my CCNA (although I should...I do Cisco Hardware testing!)

 

[TC10284]

Originally posted by: nweaver
CCNA isn't worth much, but you should be able to jump to an *NP without much effort, and those are worth some. I don't even have my CCNA (although I should...I do Cisco Hardware testing!)

Well TY, I'm glad to know my year of CCNA 1-4 and month of studying for the exam paid off...:disgust:

 

[ITJunkie]

Go for the degree Net.

Let me explain why. Like you I have a lot of experience but when the .com bust came, I had trouble finding work because I didn't have a degree. Even with inside help (people I worked with before) it was tough. The people who tried to bring me on told me the same thing over and over, "if you only had a degree, you'd be in". The really sad part was it didn't matter what the major was, just that you had the degree.

Flash forward to today, I just completed my two yr degree and will be transferring to a four yr college in fall or winter (money issues). It took me 3 yrs, 2 classes a quarter at a comm. college to get here. I'm a few years older than you are now and have a wife and 2 kids at home. It's not easy to do it but it is well worth the effort IMO. I'm not sure how critical the degree is today but I'm not willing to take the chance. The way I look at it, a degree combined with my experience should give me a good leg up on the competition

FWIW

 

[TC10284]

I don't mean to jump in front of Net', but do you have any comments on what school they are from? I know you said "The really sad part was it didn't matter what the major was, just that you had the degree." But I kind of feel like Net, I don't want to get laughed out of an interview or my resume/cover letter thrown in the trash if they see it is from an unknown school or the degree is in something other than the general "computer science" degree such as Info. Systems or Networking Technology.

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: TC10284
I don't mean to jump in front of Net', but do you have any comments on what school they are from? I know you said "The really sad part was it didn't matter what the major was, just that you had the degree." But I kind of feel like Net, I don't want to get laughed out of an interview or my resume/cover letter thrown in the trash if they see it is from an unknown school or the degree is in something other than the general "computer science" degree such as Info. Systems or Networking Technology.

Well, I can't give you much info on where the degrees are from but I inferred from feedback that they were referring to a standard four year college. Like UW, WSU, USC, etc. But that could just be my interpretation

 

[Madwand1]

Most people, I hope, who went to university think that they really got something out of it -- that it challenged them intellectually like never before, that it widened their eyes, and made them work hard. (Not everything is that of course.) This is the context and basis for the degree requirement / bias. It is also the context for often not being so specific as to the content of the degree (although there is always some specification of at least the type of degree whether arts or science -- indicating a bias for the general type of education).

So I say -- instead of probably saying "what if.." for the rest of your life, if you have a real chance to do it, do it, and try to do it well. But do it with a perspective of interest, of increasing your life experience and education, of widening your mind, not just of getting a paper. Do it "for real", at a recognized institution, even if it isn't famous, and be prepared (have the time and energy and interest) to work for it, and also be prepared to learn lots of eventually useless stuff -- consider these exercises for the mind.

 

[netsysadmin]

Tavis you have a PM

John

 

[Dravic]

My though on the requirements for a degree?

In my experience getting my BS in Comp Sci was more difficult then anything I?ve been tasked with in the real/business world. The theory involved and technical ability needed in the higher level courses is more then I have ever needed or put into a network design, or a trouble ticket, or a server room relocation, or any high level task I?ve been handed. I?m currently a senior network security assurance system admin (think of it as a high level UNIX network admin in charge of security) for a large ISP.

The mental work put into completing a degree is what many employers are looking for. That?s why it is often times; any degree will do, if you have the other work experience. Work experience is very good, and tells a good deal about someone, but it?s not the rubber stamp/seal of approval an accredited degree is.

Think of it like boot camp for the military. They know that no matter what they throw at you form this point on, you were put through the wringer and came out the other side. If you have the means to get your 4 year BS I would do so. As one poster observed it can only help when the job supply gets thin. Certificates are nice but they are very narrow in scope and will be obsolete in short order. My knowledge and theory that I gained from my BS in comp sci will last me much longer, and help me to continue to be able to handle the business world tasks pretty easily.

Higher education helps. I?ve yet to run into an install, administration or users guide for even an enterprise level application that was anything close to predicting errors in Numerical Analysis.

EVERYONE burns out at some point in time in school, but not everyone recovers and keeps going to completion.....

 

[netsysadmin]

Guys I think I decided to do a BS. For now I am going to concentrate on getting an AS from a local community college so I can move onto a BS later. I checked out the CS degrees at a few schools and they seem to be so in depth in programming and software design...etc. I hope I dont offend anyone when i say this, but I think the CS degrees cater to the computer people of years back. I think the CS degree still has it's place, though I think some Information Technology degrees that focus on network architecture...etc would be nice. Hopefully by the time I am ready for the third year there will be some new programs available. I think more and more reputable schools will be doing online classes and maybe a local school to me will update there computer programs some.

So far that (BSIT) Bachelor of Science of Industrial Technology at (ECU) East Carolina University sounds good. i just dont understand why they named it Industrial Technology and not Information Technology? I think it is one of the few programs that is online and is from a reputable school. Unless something else comes around that is better I think this is my forst choice so far.

BSIT at ECU

John

 

[spidey07]

my humble opinion...

At your age, it doesn't matter where you get your degree from. It only matters a slight bit on what that degree is in, slightyly...depending on what they want and what they are looking for/can afford.

A lot of the young guys think that degree and where they went to school matter. It only matters for your first job. you already have experience and can prove yourself. Your only barrier is "doesn't have a degree, HR won't allow it"

IMHO - what the degree is in and where it is from is never mentioned, nor is it paid attention to after 3-5 years experience. I can't tell you how many times I have seen announcements come across my desk "welcome joe, after hailing from xxx company as xxx title, previously xxx title of xxx company we look forward to his leadership as Chief Infomormation officer. He and his family will be reolcating to xxx along with his family of Jane Doe. He also holds a masters degree in forestry from north carolina forestry university."

Welcome Joe Doe.

Think I'm Kidding? I'm not. Happens all the time.

doesn't matter what your degree is in, nor your grades, nor your school - just that you have one.

 

[Cloud Strife]

spidey07, what do you think of a degree a Information Systems will look for a first job in IT? I'm particularly interested in networking; I guess you could call that a Network Administrator? I'll be attending my first year of college this fall so I still have plenty of time to change my major.

 

[tfinch2]

Originally posted by: netsysadmin
Guys I think I decided to do a BS. For now I am going to concentrate on getting an AS from a local community college so I can move onto a BS later. I checked out the CS degrees at a few schools and they seem to be so in depth in programming and software design...etc. I hope I dont offend anyone when i say this, but I think the CS degrees cater to the computer people of years back. I think the CS degree still has it's place, though I think some Information Technology degrees that focus on network architecture...etc would be nice. Hopefully by the time I am ready for the third year there will be some new programs available. I think more and more reputable schools will be doing online classes and maybe a local school to me will update there computer programs some.

So far that (BSIT) Bachelor of Science of Industrial Technology at (ECU) East Carolina University sounds good. i just dont understand why they named it Industrial Technology and not Information Technology? I think it is one of the few programs that is online and is from a reputable school. Unless something else comes around that is better I think this is my forst choice so far.

BSIT at ECU

John

You're thoughts of what a CS degree is are skewed if you didn't think it was deep in programming...

 

[ITPaladin]

You could look at ITT Tech schools as well if you have one in your area.

I am attending Heald College vocational/tech school for my AAS in Network Systems Administration.

I am now 35. I started 2 years or so ago (9 quarters I think of a 18 month program IF full time...~3 months / quarter). Heald has the 6 or 8 month (?) programs for Microsoft / Cisco/ Security after you finish the AAS.

I now have a telephone tech support job just from my knowledge of networking before finishing my degree.

Degrees help we are told. One of my main teachers has said there are places around here that will pay $1.00 extra per certification you hold.
He has to have degrees/certs in everything he teaches for his teaching position.

There is nothing wrong with having another way to open doors.

 

[Dravic]

Originally posted by: tfinch2

Originally posted by: netsysadmin
Guys I think I decided to do a BS. For now I am going to concentrate on getting an AS from a local community college so I can move onto a BS later. I checked out the CS degrees at a few schools and they seem to be so in depth in programming and software design...etc. I hope I dont offend anyone when i say this, but I think the CS degrees cater to the computer people of years back. I think the CS degree still has it's place, though I think some Information Technology degrees that focus on network architecture...etc would be nice. Hopefully by the time I am ready for the third year there will be some new programs available. I think more and more reputable schools will be doing online classes and maybe a local school to me will update there computer programs some.

So far that (BSIT) Bachelor of Science of Industrial Technology at (ECU) East Carolina University sounds good. i just dont understand why they named it Industrial Technology and not Information Technology? I think it is one of the few programs that is online and is from a reputable school. Unless something else comes around that is better I think this is my forst choice so far.

BSIT at ECU

John

You're thoughts of what a CS degree is are skewed if you didn't think it was deep in programming...

Agreed.

There is a reason that the IT degrees from Devery and ITT tech type schools are not as well thought of as regular BS degrees. In my opinion they are more in depth certification type courses. It will give you in-depth knowledge of the equipment that is currently in use by businesses today. When I got out of school java was just out of the gate and unproven, and many businesses where still using token ring and xna.25 protocols over networks, everything was a hub (no managed switches), and this cool internet things was taking off.

Who do you think has fared better with the rolling changes that are the business world? These schools that are moving into teaching real world applications (and still calling it a CS degree) are IMHO doing their customers a disservice. They time spent learning the ins and outs of a specific hardware platform is time where programming and theory should be the focus.

The syntax may change but the logic stays the same (for the most part). The more state based automatons change the more state based automatons stay the same?..

You maybe more interested in an MIS degree. I have a friend that manages the IT for a small firm who moved from a CS degree to an MIS degree. The CS was a lot more in-depth then he cared for, and the MIS covered the business type ideas associated with IT and IT management. He is never going to be a UNIX admin who engineers his own production level utilities and apps, but he is a very competent Microsoft admin who loves what he does, and i'm pretty sure makes more money than I do.