Networking a 2 story house, 15hosts.

[James Bond]

I'm setting up a small/medium LAN that will consist of approx 15 hosts, about half of them being wireless.

The building is a two story house, with all wired hosts upstairs, and the entry point of the modem being in the far, upstairs corner.

I NEED wireless connectivity throughout all of upstairs, and downstairs if possible.

I also need a router that will enable me to have fairly detailed networking statistics, such as 'how many packets are going where, and from which host'.

I currently have 2 Linksys AP's that I can use to extend broadcast the wireless if necessary.

Any ideas on what I could try? My budget is a couple hundred of dollars (i know, i know).

 

[slunk]

m0n0wall should be perfect!

 

[Metron]

You definitely want a good Wireless 802.11 Pre-N router.

The problem with 802.11 B is that the signal degrades about 4 degrees off of the perpendicular axis of the antenna, so you can't get coverage on more than one floor.

Pre-N incorporates the "goodness" of Multi-In Multi-Out (MIMO) signalling from 802.11 G, but with greatly extended range.

Once the "N" standard is finalized later this year, you should be able to upgrade your Pre-N router to the final N spec with a firmware update.

I've used this Belkin Pre-N router in similar situations (multi-floor / multi-client) with great success. You should be able to get the statistical usage information from the router's web client.

Good luck!

 

[James Bond]

Thanks so much for that post Metron, great information. I'm currently studying wireless networking at school, however, I had never heard of the 802.11N technology. How can I tell that the Belkin is Pre-N (which just means N functionality when the standards are made im guessing), since it doesn't really mention it on the order page? J/w.

Thanks though!

 

[James Bond]

And one more thing... if people don't have 802.11N PCMCIA cards, will it function like G? Hows that work?
Will laptops start coming equipped with 802.11N onboard cards soon?

 

[Metron]

The standard for wireless was established by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), known as 802.11. That Wiki link gives you a lot of background on the IEEE wireless standard.

802.11 N is just the latest proposed amendment(January 2004), preceded by G, B, and A. The Pre-N routers are backwards compatible with the pre-existing standards. Those with Pre-N class cards will connect at the highest speeds though, the others will be limited by the standard of the card used. I've had no problems connecting with B and G type cards (which are most common anyway) to the Belkin router.

That is indeed the same Pre-N router at Newegg that is also listed at the Belkin site for $159.99 (and out of stock... LOL). The model number is F5D8230-4. If you look at the features listed on Newegg, you'll see "Integrated Pre-N Wireless Access Point" hidden down in the list.

Not sure why Newegg has such a great deal on the price when the manufacturer shows them out of stock, but it's a steal.

Good luck.

 

[spidey07]

as an aside you can easily get 2-3-4 floors of coverage with 802.11B radios provided they are of decent power.

All with the 2.4 db omnidirection antennas normally called "rubber ducks" that come with most access points.

 

[Metron]

Very true Spidey. I was just impressed with the "out-of-the-box" functionality and ease of use with that specific Belkin. No additional antennas required.

Tizyler may not need the 40x speed advantage of N over B, and he may want to use the existing Linksys Access Points with a B router. He would be limiting speed on people who already have G spec cards in their laptops though, unless he goes with a G or N spec router.

One more thing Tizyler... most wireless routers have only 4 wired ports. How many wired connections upstairs? If you need more, you'll have to buy a small switch/hub to supplement the routers' wired connections.

 

[JackMDS]

As oppose to other issues of computing Wireless issues are not solved with magic hardware buzzword.

One preN unit would not cover well such an area and usage.

No matter what you would need few unites.

To buy few PreN are expensive and you would need to tell every one to buy an expensive PreN client card as well, otherwise it would work as 802.11g.

My guess that in the summer we would start to see Real preN standard (the current preN does not conform with any standard) that would be able to be upgraded to final 802.11n hardware that probably would be out by the end of the year.

So for the time being.

Best solution is to put one AP on each floor and connect them with CAT5e cable.

Otherwise (do not want to run cables) for the price of one PreN you can get on sale two or three Belkin 802.11g that are WDS (Wireless Network - Configuration Modes. and create a Wireless coverage with them.

:sun:

 

[Metron]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
As oppose to other issues of computing Wireless issues are not solved with magic hardware buzzword.

One preN unit would not cover well such an area and usage.

I disagree.

I have real world experience setting up this particular router in just this type of situation. They do work. I'm trying to share my experience with Tizyler. If you want to bury your head in the sand and claim this doesn't work without any first hand experience... be my guest.

Originally posted by: JackMDS
To buy few PreN are expensive and you would need to tell every one to buy an expensive PreN client card as well, otherwise it would work as 802.11g.

As I said in my earlier posts there is no need to upgrade to N spec client cards, since the N spec is backwards compatible with B and G devices. I've tested both, and they do work. The main issue here is the broadcast device, which is the router. If you have one of sufficient power and capability, you will only need one. You'll have inter-operability among B, G and N devices.

Tizyler, try the router. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Worst case... if it doesn't work, you can return/exchange it for a more complicated solution.

Good luck.

PS. I don't work for Belkin. I'm a self-employed IT consultant, and I've been working in this field for more than 20 years. I'm just offering some free advice, based upon my own experiences helping customers solve problems.

 

[DainBrammage]

You definitely want a good Wireless 802.11 Pre-N router.

Why would you steer him into something that could pssibly be trash and not upgradeable to the n standard? The peolpe writing the standard don't even know what its going to be yet.

 

[Metron]

Originally posted by: DainBrammage

You definitely want a good Wireless 802.11 Pre-N router.

Why would you steer him into something that could pssibly be trash and not upgradeable to the n standard? The peolpe writing the standard don't even know what its going to be yet.

Why? Because I know the solution I'm proposing works... have you even tried to use a Pre-N router yet? I seriously doubt it.

1. On January 19, 2006, the IEEE 802.11n Working Group approved the EWC's specification as the draft approval of 802.11n.

2. That router should be firmware upgradeable to the future N standard.

3. Even if it's not, at $99 it's still a good value and completely functional with B and G devices at ranges further than the current G spec.

4. I've used that router successfully in several installs in small offices and 2 story homes, and I'm yet to have a complaint.

Originally posted by: Metron
If you want to bury your head in the sand and claim this doesn't work without any first hand experience... be my guest.

Funny... I try to share some best practices with people I would normally consider open minded and willing to share ideas, only to have a few people try to piss all over my suggestion without any exposure to the solution. *shrugs*

Free your mind! Thinking outside of the box is good for you!
:beer:

 

[James Bond]

Metron I really appreciate all of your help. I'm definitely ordering the router.
Since the house was already wired with a Wireless G router, is it possible to just alter the router and turn it into a standalone wired AP?
If it *is* possible, I should, shouldn't I?

 

[Metron]

Originally posted by: Tizyler
Metron I really appreciate all of your help. I'm definitely ordering the router.
Since the house was already wired with a Wireless G router, is it possible to just alter the router and turn it into a standalone wired AP?
If it *is* possible, I should, shouldn't I?

*edit* Tizyler... I just re-read your post. Since you're ordering the Belkin Pre-N router, that unit will be the only equipment you need for your network. Give the G router to somebody else to use, you won't need it.








Spidey07 and JackMDS had several good suggestions:

Originally posted by: Spidey07
All with the 2.4 db omnidirection antennas normally called "rubber ducks" that come with most access points.

Originally posted by: JackMDS
Best solution is to put one AP on each floor and connect them with CAT5e cable.

You have several options. You can either:
1) obtain some omnidirectional antennas to amplify the weak G router (relative to the Belkin Pre-N) signal... this is the cheapest solution, but it may or may not work for your situation. Like this one at NewEgg...

or

2) as JackMDS points out, purchase additional access points, wire them to your existing G router, and put one on each floor. Like this Linksys G AP at NewEgg...

or

3) Buy one Belkin Pre-N router to REPLACE your existing G router (as I originally suggested) and you're done. Belkin Pre-N




Finally to all the naysayers out there, I did receive this email from Belkin Technical Support just yesterday:

Thank you for contacting Belkin Technical Support

The first draft of the 802.11n technology was approved on Jan 19 2006. They are not expecting ratify the technology for another 9 to 12 months. When the 802.11n standard is ratified at the end of 2006/ early 2007 we plan to offer firmware upgrades on our website for our routers.

Jason Faria
Escalation Team
Belkin Corporation
Customer Support
(800) 223-5546 x2263
www.belkin.com/support <http://www.belkin.com/support>
jasonf@belkin.com

If you have any further questions or concerns, please contact us at 1-800-223-5546 ext. 2263 between the hours of 6:00am - 5:00pm Pacific Time


My point being... that Belkin Pre-N router is an N router. The manufacturer just promised to upgrade the firmware to whatever the N spec will be, once it's finalized.

Tizyler is going with Option 3... just use the Belkin Pre-N. He won't need any other equipment (access points, antennas, etc) or even his existing G router, because the Pre-N router has a strong enough signal to cover his entire facility.

 

[Madwand1]

A couple of suggestions:

1. A wireless bridge can make some of this job easier in some cases -- by letting you have wired connections on the main floor as well. Just FYI, probably not in your budget / needs.

2. Set a minimum threshold for wireless security -- I'd say WPA-PSK. If some of your devices can't cut it, disallow them instead of reducing your security. Note that WPA and WDS can conflict.

http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.co...swer/0,295199,sid63_gci1104925,00.html

 

[DainBrammage]

Why? Because I know the solution I'm proposing works... have you even tried to use a Pre-N router yet? I seriously doubt it.

On January 19, 2006, the IEEE 802.11n Working Group approved the EWC's specification as the draft approval of 802.11n

The keyword in that is DRAFT.

Do you have trouble reading, let alone understanding, English?

The first draft of the 802.11n technology was approved on Jan 19 2006. They are not expecting ratify the technology for another 9 to 12 months. When the 802.11n standard is ratified at the end of 2006/ early 2007 we plan to offer firmware upgrades on our website for our routers.

The PLAN is to offer the upgrades. In legal jargon this means if we guessed correctly we will. If we didn't then YOU ARE SCREWED PURPLE!!!

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: DainBrammage
[The PLAN is to offer the upgrades. In legal jargon this means if we guessed correctly we will. If we didn't then YOU ARE SCREWED PURPLE!!!

If Pre-N routers work for people now, then that's kewl. It's likely that early Pre-Ns will be obsolete by the time the N standard is actually made official.

As you note, there have been cases where "reputable" hardware vendors "guaranteed" compatibility with future standards, and then failed to deliver. Hewlett-Packard finally settled a class-action lawsuit because they promised their original DVD+RW writer would be compatible with DVD+R when it became standardized. HP wasn't able to make it work with a firmware upgrade, so they "apologized" to customers and told them to buy new DVD writers. The resulting lawsuits were costly to HP and beneficial to the lawyers. Of course, early purchasers of HP DVD writers got nothing in the end.

 

[whalen]

Originally posted by: Tizyler
Thanks so much for that post Metron, great information. I'm currently studying wireless networking at school, however, I had never heard of the 802.11N technology. How can I tell that the Belkin is Pre-N (which just means N functionality when the standards are made im guessing), since it doesn't really mention it on the order page? J/w.

Thanks though!

If you are studying wireless networking at school, then you should be familiar with site surveys. Since every building has different characteristics (building materials, sources of noise, etc), there really is no "one size fits all" solution....

Another thing that I never heard you mention is what the LAN will be used for...is it to share internet access, or will it be used for sharing files locally between users? (office environment).

Personally I would recommend that since you already have 2 Linksys AP's, you use those on non-overlapping channels, purchase a good switch for the APs and the wired clients, and use something like slunk said (m0n0wall) to provide NAT/traffic shaping for the clients. You can tweak the positions of those two AP's and provide better coverage than you would get from the N router (and since you already have that equipment its a win win situation).

Having two separate AP's is probably a good thing to to prevent overloading of the one single AP.

Also, as far as upgrading in the future to full "N" standards, I wouldn't hold your breath. As RebateMonger said, I have seen countless cases of manufacturers saying equipment will be fully complient with the standards, only to find out when it comes down to it they drop support for the device. Do you honestly think that any manufacturer would tell you that their equipment will be obsolete in 6 months??