Netflix/Marvel say "screw you" to alt-right co-opters of the Punisher symbol as the season 2 villain is an alt-right fundamentalist.

[Fenixgoon]

The Punisher: Inspiration for the Police and the US Military

The swastika was used in many cultures and religions, and considered among other things a symbol of good luck, until it was co-opted by the Nazis. I doubt if you did a wide ranging poll of Americans, that many if any would a) know the correct answer b) provide an interpretation anywhere near the concept of "justice" if asked.

So that official definition may be all well and good, but its modern interpretation is a long ways away from where it started. Kind of like saying modern republicans are still the party of Lincoln.

 

[mikeymikec]

M: What exactly are you looking for here?

L: Already stated.

M: AFAIK the alt-right isn't an established organisation of people who protect their trademarks and have a paid membership.

L: Correct AFAIK, they are an extreme political group.

M: If say some random douche who is semi-well-known amongst the alt-right decides to use the Punisher logo as his avatar and wear it on a t-shirt at Charlottesville, it's going to get seen on TV along with all the other Nazi-lovers. Is he alt-right or a Nazi? Does it matter?

L: No, it doesn't matter if he is alt-right or a Nazi. So what is your point again?

Your attempts to say you're not looking for anything here: Stop being pathetic, you asked for a higher standard of evidence in the first place (see quote at the end of my post).

If you agree that they're not an established organisation and so you're unlikely to see any kind of 'official' guidance with regard to logos or attire, therefore anything that 'catches on' is down to two possible factors (at least that I can think of):

1 - some guy at a rally gets ID'd as movement X while wearing something distinctive and/or did something distinctive and his fellow supporters think "cool thing, I'll wear it next time". That guy's clothing choice have even have been coincidental.

2 - some guy at a rally gets ID'd as movement X while wearing something distinctive and onlookers consider that to be the look for that movement, maybe because it's distinctive or maybe he did something distinctive, who knows. Fellow supporters then want to use that item in future because of the notoriety that resulted / its association with that movement in the eyes of the public.

The end result of either scenario is the same: the public perception being, "that's the logo that organisation X wears!". Maybe the scenario happens in triplicate and three possibly random logos end up being associated with the alt-right.

The thing that I find most bizarre about your counter-argument is that you agree with me that it hardly matters what movement he claims to follow and yet you're splitting hairs about wanting a higher standard of evidence that the punisher logo was used by the alt-right:

Show me some real evidence that the alt-right is using the logo.

 

[ch33zw1z]

The Punisher: Inspiration for the Police and the US Military

vigilante justice based on perspective, where LEO's and US Military feel powerful being the judge, jury, and executioner.

https://www.salon.com/2017/03/11/wh...your-local-police-department-it-cant-be-good/

https://www.kentucky.com/news/state/article134722264.html

When I watch Punisher, justice is not the word that comes to mind. The quandry pointed out in the salon article is very on point. The punisher doesn't support LEO's exclusively like some want to think, he punishes anyone that he sees fit, including LEO's and/or military.

And, and the link you gave did make me chuckle. We have a conjecture thread about Gillette jumping in on social issues to sell stuff, which is what "protacticalsupply" is doing...yet no concern

 

[Paratus]

Police love it too:

Police chief in Kentucky put these on his cruisers. But after the optics of having police roll up with black skulls draped in the flag and a blue lives matter logo, based on a comic book character who is judge, jury, and executioner was made clear the chief removed them from the cruisers.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I'll weigh in. First, it disturbs me that any of these violent fantasy characters are becoming real life mascots, symbols, or propaganda tools, of a sort, for sectors of our society. In the present, the term fake news has become ubiquitous. It is often used to dismiss anything an individual or group does not wish to accept as true or factual. Which of course means that while it is sometimes an accurate analysis, it is far more often, simply dismissive of anything that conflicts with the fantasy bubble so many now seem to prefer over reality. Embracing a fantasy character like Punisher the way people are doing, is simply more evidence of how removed from reality they have become.

Law enforcement would do far better to embrace Batman anyways. Punisher is not about justice, he is about Punishment [obligatory DUH!]. Those above the law, beyond the law, or that have subverted the law, are the ones in his cross hairs. And he isn't looking to bring them to justice, or bring justice to them; the guilty must be punished. Batman on the other hand, embodies justice. Hence, law enforcement terribly misunderstands Punisher, me thinks, or they would never use his skull.

 

[Genx87]

I'm sure this is very bad/good news for the seven people on earth who knew what the punishers symbol was, and that actually give a shit.

I had to laugh, first time I saw this symbol was something to do with the Navy Seals. I had no idea it was a comic book thing. Much less now a symbol of the alt-right. Hard to keep up with this crap when working.

 

[Genx87]

I'll weigh in. First, it disturbs me that any of these violent fantasy characters are becoming real life mascots, symbols, or propaganda tools, of a sort, for sectors of our society. In the present, the term fake news has become ubiquitous. It is often used to dismiss anything an individual or group does not wish to accept as true or factual. Which of course means that while it is sometimes an accurate analysis, it is far more often, simply dismissive of anything that conflicts with the fantasy bubble so many now seem to prefer over reality. Embracing a fantasy character like Punisher the way people are doing, is simply more evidence of how removed from reality they have become.

Law enforcement would do far better to embrace Batman anyways. Punisher is not about justice, he is about Punishment [obligatory DUH!]. Those above the law, beyond the law, or that have subverted the law, are the ones in his cross hairs. And he isn't looking to bring them to justice, or bring justice to them; the guilty must be punished. Batman on the other hand, embodies justice. Hence, law enforcement terribly misunderstands Punisher, me thinks, or they would never use his skull.

Batman is a vigilante. The last thing law enforcement wants to embrace.

 

[Paratus]

Batman is a vigilante. The last thing law enforcement wants to embrace.

The last thing we want them to embrace. But as I linked above, there’s a police force who thought the symbol of a vigilante had a place on their cars. So it seems some law enforcement do embrace it.

Amazon sells them too so people are buying them.
https://www.amazon.com/Blueline-Punisher-Tattered-Subdued-Reflective/dp/B01CN5FMX4

 

[Genx87]

The last thing we want them to embrace. But as I linked above, there’s a police force who thought the symbol of a vigilante had a place on their cars. So it seems some law enforcement do embrace it.

Amazon sells them too so people are buying them.
https://www.amazon.com/Blueline-Punisher-Tattered-Subdued-Reflective/dp/B01CN5FMX4

I dont think a police force should be embracing any comic book crap. I was only pointing out Batman is a vigilante. While he is going after criminals. He is doing it outside the law.

 

[Jaskalas]

Maybe I am confused. The religious nutjobs were white guys this time. Not the first time, though certainly fallen out of style in recent decades. Question is, who actually cares or complained?

 

[pmv]

Police love it too:

Police chief in Kentucky put these on his cruisers. But after the optics of having police roll up with black skulls draped in the flag and a blue lives matter logo, based on a comic book character who is judge, jury, and executioner was made clear the chief removed them from the cruisers.

If they want comic book art on their cars they should have gone with Chief Wiggum.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

I'll weigh in. First, it disturbs me that any of these violent fantasy characters are becoming real life mascots, symbols, or propaganda tools, of a sort, for sectors of our society. In the present, the term fake news has become ubiquitous. It is often used to dismiss anything an individual or group does not wish to accept as true or factual. Which of course means that while it is sometimes an accurate analysis, it is far more often, simply dismissive of anything that conflicts with the fantasy bubble so many now seem to prefer over reality. Embracing a fantasy character like Punisher the way people are doing, is simply more evidence of how removed from reality they have become.

Law enforcement would do far better to embrace Batman anyways. Punisher is not about justice, he is about Punishment [obligatory DUH!]. Those above the law, beyond the law, or that have subverted the law, are the ones in his cross hairs. And he isn't looking to bring them to justice, or bring justice to them; the guilty must be punished. Batman on the other hand, embodies justice. Hence, law enforcement terribly misunderstands Punisher, me thinks, or they would never use his skull.

They terribly misunderstand Punisher, or just terribly misunderstand their own role?

 

[soundforbjt]

I had to laugh, first time I saw this symbol was something to do with the Navy Seals. I had no idea it was a comic book thing. Much less now a symbol of the alt-right. Hard to keep up with this crap when working.

These symbols get adopted so fast nowadays it's hard to keep up.

 

[darkswordsman17]

It hews pretty close to the graphic novel (I've read it multiple times, watched the movie multiple times, though only the director's cut), maybe that's what makes it come off as boring (some shots in the movie seem to exist basically to duplicate a frame from the comic). Definitely not unanimous that it's awful by any stretch.

That's not really what I was saying and the title of this article sums up my point (I didn't read the article but the title fits what I've seen others say about it, and it came about through seeing other people discuss it and remark that it royally screws up characters and messages that the creator was actually intending to convey):
https://www.avclub.com/the-watchmen-movie-proves-you-can-be-faithful-to-a-comi-1830312684

I have seen people laud it for being true to imagery of the graphic novel, but even they tend to admit they don't like it because that ends up being pointless if they screw up the characters/message/intent/etc. I think the only place besides you apparently that likes it were people on YouTube comments. There's tons of "what Watchmen did right" type of stuff, but seems like they still say that it was bad and a prime example of why people hate Snyder and why few people were shocked when his DC movies turned out similarly shitty. Who gives a fuck about your badass imagery if you render it null by every other aspect of your movie?

Another article on there makes me laugh as I could see that type of shit back then.
https://film.avclub.com/zack-snyder-s-300-presaged-the-howling-fascism-of-the-a-1798265082

I remember being very baffled by how many guys were that hyped about that shit when it came out and just wanted to laugh when I saw some of them trying to leverage it into some hyper-masculine cult ideology. I made fun of that toxic masculinity back then (and 99 times out of 100 they're too stupid to notice that I'm mocking them). I remember those types of dipshits on this forum using the phrase "pussification of America" and just laughed because...I mean, how can you not at people that seriously use phrases like that? Let alone the absurdity and toxic nature of so much of the shit they believe and push.

 

[darkswordsman17]

These symbols get adopted so fast nowadays it's hard to keep up.

The dumbest part is how they try to convince people they're using them "just to troll people" and think us just pointing out that its right wing shitheads that tend to be white supremacist and/or fascist supporting morons is us "being triggered". It doesn't bother me at all, in fact I love these shitheads labeling themselves, as it makes it much easier to be able to predict their behavior. Simply put, treat people "trolling" as white supremacist as actual white supremacist and then see who is "triggered" when they start crying (which they perpetually do).

Er, actually the dumbest part is that they're the ones raging about "identity politics" that are doing the same fucking thing and always have been. They're just mad that other people wanted to do the same - and for things that these right wing dipshits don't like. And that people can see through their bullshit and see their actual intent, and that because of their toxic beliefs that they've tainted their symbols and undermine what they claim to support, so that iconography they've chosen to symbolize their identity now expose them for the despicable shitheads they are. And that's why they've tried to adopt more esoteric and/or more menacing iconography so they could claim it being innocent or act tough.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I'll weigh in. First, it disturbs me that any of these violent fantasy characters are becoming real life mascots, symbols, or propaganda tools, of a sort, for sectors of our society. In the present, the term fake news has become ubiquitous. It is often used to dismiss anything an individual or group does not wish to accept as true or factual. Which of course means that while it is sometimes an accurate analysis, it is far more often, simply dismissive of anything that conflicts with the fantasy bubble so many now seem to prefer over reality. Embracing a fantasy character like Punisher the way people are doing, is simply more evidence of how removed from reality they have become.

Law enforcement would do far better to embrace Batman anyways. Punisher is not about justice, he is about Punishment [obligatory DUH!]. Those above the law, beyond the law, or that have subverted the law, are the ones in his cross hairs. And he isn't looking to bring them to justice, or bring justice to them; the guilty must be punished. Batman on the other hand, embodies justice. Hence, law enforcement terribly misunderstands Punisher, me thinks, or they would never use his skull.

Absolutely. I don't mind these types of characters (well when they're not so common and overdone) in fiction, but people are really losing it and becoming detached from reality.

Reminds me of discussions after the Aurora theater shooting how there were some people touting how they would've been able to stop it had they been there with their gun. I remember badgering a couple of people on here because they clearly had no actual grasp of what the situation was like. They seemed to be expecting some perfect movie set, with clear lighting (and muzzle flashes from the guy's gun showing exactly where he was) where they'd be standing in the optimal spot ready with their gun and that the guy wouldn't be shooting back at them. They ignored that he was wearing armor, didn't realize that few people would have thought it was a real shooting right away (which gave him time to fire more before people properly realized and reacted - and then when they did how chaotic that scene would have been, a dark theater, someone dressed all in black, firing all over the theater while people ran or tried to hide behind seats and the like). People play games and watch movies and think they have an inkling of what it would be like to be there as themselves (even when they're realistic, media is nowhere close to conveying the actuality). And they refused to accept that even people trained for shit like that very often do not act perfectly.

I think Law Enforcement should focus on embracing the ideals they claim to and live up to them and stop trying to ingratiate themselves via pop culture symbols. Slapping Blue Live Matter American Flag Punisher decals is about the most tone deaf fucking thing you could do (definitely competes with when they kept using the "a few bad apples" saying as a defense for the rampant issues, seemingly unaware of the full phrase that perfectly supported what people were saying that those few bad apples spoiled the bunch of them). And then cops wonder why people point out that they don't tend to be recruiting the best and brightest people...

 

[pmv]

That's not really what I was saying and the title of this article sums up my point (I didn't read the article but the title fits what I've seen others say about it, and it came about through seeing other people discuss it and remark that it royally screws up characters and messages that the creator was actually intending to convey):
https://www.avclub.com/the-watchmen-movie-proves-you-can-be-faithful-to-a-comi-1830312684

I have seen people laud it for being true to imagery of the graphic novel, but even they tend to admit they don't like it because that ends up being pointless if they screw up the characters/message/intent/etc. I think the only place besides you apparently that likes it were people on YouTube comments. There's tons of "what Watchmen did right" type of stuff, but seems like they still say that it was bad and a prime example of why people hate Snyder and why few people were shocked when his DC movies turned out similarly shitty. Who gives a fuck about your badass imagery if you render it null by every other aspect of your movie?

Another article on there makes me laugh as I could see that type of shit back then.
https://film.avclub.com/zack-snyder-s-300-presaged-the-howling-fascism-of-the-a-1798265082

I remember being very baffled by how many guys were that hyped about that shit when it came out and just wanted to laugh when I saw some of them trying to leverage it into some hyper-masculine cult ideology. I made fun of that toxic masculinity back then (and 99 times out of 100 they're too stupid to notice that I'm mocking them). I remember those types of dipshits on this forum using the phrase "pussification of America" and just laughed because...I mean, how can you not at people that seriously use phrases like that? Let alone the absurdity and toxic nature of so much of the shit they believe and push.

Interesting article about Watchman - explained it a bit to this non-comic-book-reader. I wonder if to really 'get' it, even the comic itself, you had to be immersed in more traditional comic-book superhero fare, to get what it was supposed to be subverting.

I actually didn't mind 300, even though I saw it knowing it had a very right-wing subtext. (Most of the commentary that I recall seemed to be about homoerotica and it was the first time I heard the phrase 'muscle marys'). I can only say that like a lot of dubious historical movies it made me want to go and read up on the actual history, and it was watchable enough as a spectacle. Miller was already known as being one of those right-wing pop-cultural figures that it seemed only the US could produce, and seen as the inverse of the kind-of lefty Alan Moore. But even a right-wing political subtext is still political and hence not without interest.

 

[pmv]

I dont think a police force should be embracing any comic book crap. I was only pointing out Batman is a vigilante. While he is going after criminals. He is doing it outside the law.

Isn't he a vigilante who refuses to use guns?
Be interesting if US cops would try and imitate that bit.

 

[pmv]

Absolutely. I don't mind these types of characters (well when they're not so common and overdone) in fiction, but people are really losing it and becoming detached from reality.

Reminds me of discussions after the Aurora theater shooting how there were some people touting how they would've been able to stop it had they been there with their gun.

Trump, of course, would have run into the theatre without hesitation.

 

[zinfamous]

They terribly misunderstand Punisher, or just terribly misunderstand their own role?

I think such so-called law officers very much envy The Punisher. I think they actually get what the Punisher is, and really do want to run up murdering people that look at them funny.

 

[nakedfrog]

That's not really what I was saying and the title of this article sums up my point (I didn't read the article but the title fits what I've seen others say about it, and it came about through seeing other people discuss it and remark that it royally screws up characters and messages that the creator was actually intending to convey):
https://www.avclub.com/the-watchmen-movie-proves-you-can-be-faithful-to-a-comi-1830312684

I have seen people laud it for being true to imagery of the graphic novel, but even they tend to admit they don't like it because that ends up being pointless if they screw up the characters/message/intent/etc. I think the only place besides you apparently that likes it were people on YouTube comments. There's tons of "what Watchmen did right" type of stuff, but seems like they still say that it was bad and a prime example of why people hate Snyder and why few people were shocked when his DC movies turned out similarly shitty. Who gives a fuck about your badass imagery if you render it null by every other aspect of your movie?

Eh, 8.1 Metacritic score with users, 7.6 on IMDB, clearly a decent amount of people besides me like it.

 

[Lanyap]

The problem with the actor railing against the alt-right for using his logo is that mostly military and LEOs were using the logo and very few alt-right people. Now it will become more popular with the alt-right and they will use it more to irritate and mock the left.

 

[Amused]

I'll weigh in. First, it disturbs me that any of these violent fantasy characters are becoming real life mascots, symbols, or propaganda tools, of a sort, for sectors of our society. In the present, the term fake news has become ubiquitous. It is often used to dismiss anything an individual or group does not wish to accept as true or factual. Which of course means that while it is sometimes an accurate analysis, it is far more often, simply dismissive of anything that conflicts with the fantasy bubble so many now seem to prefer over reality. Embracing a fantasy character like Punisher the way people are doing, is simply more evidence of how removed from reality they have become.

Law enforcement would do far better to embrace Batman anyways. Punisher is not about justice, he is about Punishment [obligatory DUH!]. Those above the law, beyond the law, or that have subverted the law, are the ones in his cross hairs. And he isn't looking to bring them to justice, or bring justice to them; the guilty must be punished. Batman on the other hand, embodies justice. Hence, law enforcement terribly misunderstands Punisher, me thinks, or they would never use his skull.

Something tells me you're biased here. I can't quite put my finger on it though...

 

[dyna]

The problem with the actor railing against the alt-right for using his logo is that mostly military and LEOs were using the logo and very few alt-right people. Now it will become more popular with the alt-right and they will use it more to irritate and mock the left.

I can definitely see how this strategy could be used to troll other symbolic things to liberals such as the Donkey.