Netanyahu: No Palestinian State If I’m Re-Elected

[fskimospy]

Pull out your passport (if you have one) and tell me what nation is on there.

Of course in the end he supports America, that's not what this is about.

He views Obama as an arrogant, know it all jerk and so he has become emotionally invested in seeing him put in his place or otherwise humbled. Look at all the petty personal insults he flings at Obama not only in this thread but in others and it's pretty obvious.

He wouldn't pick the US over Israel, he'll just convince himself that the problems that the US is having with Israel are all Obama's fault. It's some kind of subconscious concern trolling.

 

[Oyeve]

Screw Israel, screw Netheyahoo. I wish we would just cease any talks with those idiots. Let them take care of their own shit. If they believe iran will nuke them, who cares? Let them sort it out. Im just so tired of hearing this bullshit.

 

[Caravaggio]

Yet it is the US influence that is stopping Israel from solving the problem with teh Palestinians.

Palestinians feel that the US has Israel on a leash and will jerk it around whenever the Palestinians complain to much.

Cut Israel loose and watch the results the next time the Palestinians act up against Israel.

All water, power, supplies are completely dependent on Israel good will.
Jordan and Egypt to not provide logistics to the Palestinians.

What ill-informed meretricious drivel.
You talk of "Israel (sic) good will"
Have you ever been to Gaza? There are few signs there of Israeli goodwill!
It is rubble.

Netanyahu has done just enough to squeak home, yet again. He will further brutalise the Palestinians. The "daily humiliations" ( Obama) will intensify. There will be more war. Israeli Jews wil win those wars with arms sent from the US.
While outside Israel, the lives of Jews worldwide will be in further danger. There can be no peace with Netanyahu in charge.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Of course in the end he supports America, that's not what this is about.

Correct.

He views Obama as an arrogant, know it all jerk and so he has become emotionally invested in seeing him put in his place or otherwise humbled. Look at all the petty personal insults he flings at Obama not only in this thread but in others and it's pretty obvious.

I'm not emotionally invested in seeing Obama be put in his place or otherwise humbled...not even a smidgen. I just don't like him and I've given many "petty" reasons for this over the years.

He wouldn't pick the US over Israel, he'll just convince himself that the problems that the US is having with Israel are all Obama's fault. It's some kind of subconscious concern trolling.

This isn't about picking the US over Israel. I posted a decent history of how the relationship with Netanyahu deteriorated from the very beginning of Obama's tenure...and I think it's clear that Obama was largely responsible for the divisive relationship from the git go. "Subconscious concern trolling"...wtf?

 

[emperus]

Of course in the end he supports America, that's not what this is about.

He views Obama as an arrogant, know it all jerk and so he has become emotionally invested in seeing him put in his place or otherwise humbled. Look at all the petty personal insults he flings at Obama not only in this thread but in others and it's pretty obvious.

He wouldn't pick the US over Israel, he'll just convince himself that the problems that the US is having with Israel are all Obama's fault. It's some kind of subconscious concern trolling.

I'm not as sure as you are.

The same can be said about Boehner and his invite to Netanyahu and those Senators who wrote the Iran letter. There is so much irrational disdain for Obama and emotional investment in seeing him fail, it leads to positions that are harmful to the US, US interests and things the US stands for.

 

[fskimospy]

Correct.


I'm not emotionally invested in seeing Obama be put in his place or otherwise humbled...not even a smidgen. I just don't like him and I've given many "petty" reasons for this over the years.


This isn't about picking the US over Israel. I posted a decent history of how the relationship with Netanyahu deteriorated from the very beginning of Obama's tenure...and I think it's clear that Obama was largely responsible for the divisive relationship from the git go. "Subconscious concern trolling"...wtf?

It's hard to see how anyone could get that from the timeline you posted. Netanyahu started off by refusing to support the primary US foreign policy goal in the Middle East and repeatedly sought to publicly embarrass Obama, and tacitly accepted his government being used to campaign against him. I sincerely, sincerely doubt if you switched the names you would come to the same conclusion.

You also based this on some sort of idea that Obama had been campaigning against Netanyahu in 2009. You've been asked for evidence of this several times by multiple people. Where is it?

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not as sure as you are.

The same can be said about Boehner and his invite to Netanyahu and those Senators who wrote the Iran letter. There is so much irrational disdain for Obama and emotional investment in seeing him fail, it leads to positions that are harmful to the US, US interests and things the US stands for.

Meh, maybe that in the new crazies that the Republicans elected, but not Boehner or McConnell. They just (correctly) saw no political advantage in cooperating with Obama. Sure it hurt the country, but in many way that the voters' fault for not punishing them for being so irresponsible.

You don't get as far as Obama, Boehner, and McConnell by letting your emotions get the best of you. Not congratulating Netanyahu isn't a fit of pique, it's a choice to express displeasure, probably at his abandonment of the two state solution. People like DSF think Obama is reacting emotionally to this stuff because that's how they react.

 

[emperus]

Meh, maybe that in the new crazies that the Republicans elected, but not Boehner or McConnell. They just (correctly) saw no political advantage in cooperating with Obama. Sure it hurt the country, but in many way that the voters' fault for not punishing them for being so irresponsible.

You don't get as far as Obama, Boehner, and McConnell by letting your emotions get the best of you. Not congratulating Netanyahu isn't a fit of pique, it's a choice to express displeasure, probably at his abandonment of the two state solution. People like DSF think Obama is reacting emotionally to this stuff because that's how they react.

I agree to a degree. Boehner and McConnell aren't letting their emotions get to them but as leaders of their parties they are being led by the collective emotional craziness of their party. They are politicians with a desire to remain in power and at the moment their party consists of people who are irrationally emotionally invested in Obama's failure. And that is the course that is charted for them.

I don't disagree with Obama. I think he and most every US President is hamstrung by US politics toward Israel (indicated by the reception he got in Congress) which makes me even more frustrated at DSF's comments. I think he is going to have to make some tough decisions in the UN (not using the US veto).

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Awesome article for anyone interested in such things.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

 

[emperus]

Correct.


I'm not emotionally invested in seeing Obama be put in his place or otherwise humbled...not even a smidgen. I just don't like him and I've given many "petty" reasons for this over the years.


This isn't about picking the US over Israel. I posted a decent history of how the relationship with Netanyahu deteriorated from the very beginning of Obama's tenure...and I think it's clear that Obama was largely responsible for the divisive relationship from the git go. "Subconscious concern trolling"...wtf?

So, Obama should have done what to make the relationship not divisive? Again, I'm not sure what you are saying. I believe most of the world's powers don't trust or get along with Netanyahu.

 

[Omar F1]

Awesome article for anyone interested in such things.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

This is very long read, added to favorite for later.

Actually I'd like to read a historical book with neutral stand on the subject, if anyone got any recommendation.

 

[Jhhnn]

Meh, maybe that in the new crazies that the Republicans elected, but not Boehner or McConnell. They just (correctly) saw no political advantage in cooperating with Obama. Sure it hurt the country, but in many way that the voters' fault for not punishing them for being so irresponsible.

You don't get as far as Obama, Boehner, and McConnell by letting your emotions get the best of you. Not congratulating Netanyahu isn't a fit of pique, it's a choice to express displeasure, probably at his abandonment of the two state solution. People like DSF think Obama is reacting emotionally to this stuff because that's how they react.

I agree to a degree. Boehner and McConnell aren't letting their emotions get to them but as leaders of their parties they are being led by the collective emotional craziness of their party. They are politicians with a desire to remain in power and at the moment their party consists of people who are irrationally emotionally invested in Obama's failure. And that is the course that is charted for them.

I don't disagree with Obama. I think he and most every US President is hamstrung by US politics toward Israel (indicated by the reception he got in Congress) which makes me even more frustrated at DSF's comments. I think he is going to have to make some tough decisions in the UN (not using the US veto).

Republicans ruthlessly manipulate public sentiment at an emotional level. Repubs have actively radicalized their base for decades. That's why Righties get so defensive when questioned about the reasons they believe as they do. They don't have reasons, but they obviously think they should, leading to a great deal of simulated rationality & denial as to their true motivations.

Hurt the country? Since when has Repub policy done anything else? How did we end up with the housing bubble & financial crisis necessitating bailout? The Patriot Act & expanded NSA powers? The invasion of Iraq? quagmire in Afghanistan? Demonization of Iran? The doubling of the national debt during the Bush years? Explosive inequality & lack of opportunity?

It's absolutely amazing that Righties have all that & more pushed under their noses & yet still believe in the Party & ideology that created them.

 

[Jhhnn]

Congratulations, Bibi. looks like all that fear mongering, outside influence & money put you back in office.

You may have won the election, but you've lost a lot of support in this country. Americans want peace for our Israeli friends & for the Palestinians, as well. You just told us that you're not interested, even though that was obvious to some of us for a long time. You made it plain to everybody. We can't trust you, not the way we did before.

 

[touchstone]

i have changed my mind. bibi now. bibi tomorrow. bibi forever





see the light my friends. you cant resist the bibi. look at my post history i hated him until he won the election but now i love him. you can't explain that!

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

This is very long read, added to favorite for later.

Actually I'd like to read a historical book with neutral stand on the subject, if anyone got any recommendation.

The article is very interesting and well worth the long read. Kerry's misunderstandings in the beginning of the process...wow. The reason the talks ultimately died was also interesting as it made it crystal clear that Israel will not deal with Hamas in any way, shape or form.

Over the next three weeks, with April 29 approaching, Indyk would meet nine times with Livni, Molho, Erekat, and Faraj in a bid to salvage the peace talks. He was determined to get everything in writing this time. No more misunderstandings. And by April 23, the sides seemed close to an extension agreement. Indyk drove to Ben Gurion Airport that day to pick up his wife, and while at the baggage claim, he got a call from Livni. She’d heard that the Palestinians had just done something to ruin all the progress they had made. Indyk immediately phoned Erekat, who said he wasn’t aware of the development, but would investigate. Back at the U.S. consulate, the Kerry team was combing over the details of the emerging deal, with the secretary calling periodically to check in. Soon, the news penetrated their office, too. Weeks earlier, they had been surprised by the timing of Abu Mazen’s U.N. ceremony, but not by the act. The Palestinians had put them on notice. But as the American officials huddled around a desktop computer, hungry for actual details about this rumor they were hearing, they couldn’t believe the headline that now flashed across the screen: FATAH, HAMAS END YEARS OF DIVISON, AGREE TO UNITY GOVERNMENT.The next day, the Israeli Cabinet had voted to suspend the talks. John Kerry’s peace process was over.

 

[emperus]

The article is very interesting and well worth the long read. Kerry's misunderstandings in the beginning of the process...wow. The reason the talks ultimately died was also interesting as it made it crystal clear that Israel will not deal with Hamas in any way, shape or form.

Did you read the whole article? It's very interesting that is the passage you chose and why you believe that is why the talks ultimately died.

The Palestinians never trusted Netanyahu, they believed they were being played (and seeing Netanyahu's new stance they were right). Israel didn't deliver on what they promised and the Palestinians decided that no deal was forthcoming. Remember this was just trying to negotiate an extension agreement after Kerry was trying to salvage something.

Here is a quote from the article.

In his final weeks, the Israeli president has repeatedly called Abbas a partner for peace while being more circumspect about Netanyahu. “I respect some of the things he did, and I speak about those publicly,” he said at a conference days ago. “Other things I don't agree with, and about that I'll be able to speak in a few weeks when I retire.”

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Did you read the whole article?

Yes...but I'm sure that your perspective is much more astute.

 

[cabri]

Did you read the whole article? It's very interesting that is the passage you chose and why you believe that is why the talks ultimately died.

The Palestinians never trusted Netanyahu, they believed they were being played (and seeing Netanyahu's new stance they were right). Israel didn't deliver on what they promised and the Palestinians decided that no deal was forthcoming. Remember this was just trying to negotiate an extension agreement after Kerry was trying to salvage something.

Here is a quote from the article.

Catch 22 becomes deadly.
They never trusted Netanyahu; and he never trusted the Palestinians.

Hamas is a terror group; sworn against Israel; classified as a terror group by countries through out the world.

The Fatah ties in with them and new elections are not held - does that imply that Hamas will get control with Fatah lip service, Hamas acting in lip service or a real shared government if elections are held or the Palestinians are unable to get their act together.

With Hamas more inbed with the PA system; how can Israel trust the Palestinians. Gaza is a potential example; why should Israel expose herself to one that has demonstrated that they are willing to sacrifice their people to end up being a PITA.

the Palestinians have proved Netanyahu correct that they do not actually want a legit peace;

And now Netanyahu has proven to the Palestinians that Israel is not going to bend over to appease others while the Palestinians act the way they do against what Israel feels is their best interests.

 

[emperus]

Yes...but I'm sure that your perspective is much more astute.

So what was your perspective of the article?

 

[emperus]

Catch 22 becomes deadly.
They never trusted Netanyahu; and he never trusted the Palestinians.

Hamas is a terror group; sworn against Israel; classified as a terror group by countries through out the world.

The Fatah ties in with them and new elections are not held - does that imply that Hamas will get control with Fatah lip service, Hamas acting in lip service or a real shared government if elections are held or the Palestinians are unable to get their act together.

With Hamas more inbed with the PA system; how can Israel trust the Palestinians. Gaza is a potential example; why should Israel expose herself to one that has demonstrated that they are willing to sacrifice their people to end up being a PITA.

the Palestinians have proved Netanyahu correct that they do not actually want a legit peace;

And now Netanyahu has proven to the Palestinians that Israel is not going to bend over to appease others while the Palestinians act the way they do against what Israel feels is their best interests.

Unfortunately, it seems no one trusted Bibi during those Negotiations. And it seems no other world leader trusts Bibi as you heard in the exchange with Obama.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

So what was your perspective of the article?

For one...the mistrust was mutual and for you to frame it any other way is dishonest.

 

[Jaskalas]

This land the Palestinians claim is the size of a county. Not exactly State material.

They ultimately need to act as a vassal for a larger neighbor the way Russia gobbles up small pieces on its borders. South Ossetia should be a chief example of how the Palestinians should proceed into something functional. Protection from Israel, a degree of autonomy, but ultimately dependent on a real State.

Egypt and Jordan need to step up and answer for the future of the people they have left out in the cold dark of night. Israel's job is merely to behave, while the rest of the world works out a peace deal.

 

[cabri]

This land the Palestinians claim is the size of a county. Not exactly State material.

They ultimately need to act as a vassal for a larger neighbor the way Russia gobbles up small pieces on its borders. South Ossetia should be a chief example of how the Palestinians should proceed into something functional. Protection from Israel, a degree of autonomy, but ultimately dependent on a real State.

Egypt and Jordan need to step up and answer for the future of the people they have left out in the cold dark of night. Israel's job is merely to behave, while the rest of the world works out a peace deal.

Egypt does not want them - look at their attitude with respect to Gaza.
Jordan does not want them - the Palestinians costs the the West Bank initially and then tried to overthrow the government.

So there are two plots of land bordered by countries that do not want the people there.

Syria and/or Lebanon might be willing, but they are not physical neighbors
Even the two sections are separated. what existed prior to the '67 war no longer is viable. Originally, Pakistan was two geographical area and they could not work it out.

IF Israel was to hand over the land that is presently available but pulled back all support; the place would fall apart. It is not able to be self sufficient.