Netanyahu is using Oslo Accords to annex more West Bank land

[cybrsage]

I think it is funny how Israel haters will go through gyrations to show the conquests of the USSR and China were all perfectly fine...

The point is, the power of conquest is alive and well due to the UN not having its own overpowering military force. To say it is not alive and well is to ignore reality. The only ones who are not allowed to conquer lands are those the big boys do not want to do it...all others can do it at will.

Might still makes right on this planet.

 

[kylebisme]

I think it is funny how Israel haters will go through gyrations to show the conquests of the USSR and China were all perfectly fine...

I disagree with many of the Israeli establishment's policies and actions, but I don't hate the country. Furthermore, I don't believe any conquests are fine by any stretch, USSRs and China's included, but that doesn't stop me from acknowledging the differences between their conquests and Israel's or the implications of those differences under international law. As for gyrations, you've no need to look further than yourself for that:

The point is, the power of conquest is alive and well due to the UN not having its own overpowering military force. To say it is not alive and well is to ignore reality. The only ones who are not allowed to conquer lands are those the big boys do not want to do it...all others can do it at will.

Might still makes right on this planet.

You've spun right of conquest into "power of conquest", and continue to dance around the fact that the former was completely phased out of international law years before Israel existed.

 

[cybrsage]

The right of conquest is controlled by the power of conquest. If you do not have the power to keep the land you took, you do not have the right to have it. If you do, then it is yours.

Russia and China took lands that do not belong to them and are keeping them until someone more powerful makes them give up the lands (either via military force or via social means). Israel is powerful enough to take lands and keep them, provided the much bigger boys do not care. Right now, the much bigger boys do not care to make them give up the lands.

Rights are provided by power. No power, no rights. Simple as that. It is just how the world works.

 

[Lemon law]

The right of conquest is controlled by the power of conquest. If you do not have the power to keep the land you took, you do not have the right to have it. If you do, then it is yours.

Russia and China took lands that do not belong to them and are keeping them until someone more powerful makes them give up the lands (either via military force or via social means). Israel is powerful enough to take lands and keep them, provided the much bigger boys do not care. Right now, the much bigger boys do not care to make them give up the lands.

Rights are provided by power. No power, no rights. Simple as that. It is just how the world works.

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What a bunch of crap IMHO, if that were true Cybrsage, the USA would still control Vietnam, Iraq, and be in fine shape if Afghanistan, the French will still control Algeria, and India would still be a crown Jewel of the British empire. And since Russia beat us to the punch, Russia would still control Afghanistan.

Might might may be temporary way to control territory, but having seldom translates into permanent possession.

 

[cybrsage]

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What a bunch of crap IMHO, if that were true Cybrsage, the USA would still control Vietnam, Iraq, and be in fine shape if Afghanistan, the French will still control Algeria, and India would still be a crown Jewel of the British empire. And since Russia beat us to the punch, Russia would still control Afghanistan.

Might might may be temporary way to control territory, but having seldom translates into permanent possession.

You are missing the point, I suspect due to your hatred of Isreal clouding your judgement.

The US never wanted to annex Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The Soviets did want to annex Afghanistan, but were not strong enough to do it. They annexed half of Europe for almost half a century, though...until they lost the strength to keep it.

All you did was aid in proving my point that might is what allows for annexation and weakness prevents it.

 

[Lemon law]

You are missing the point, I suspect due to your hatred of Isreal clouding your judgement.

The US never wanted to annex Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The Soviets did want to annex Afghanistan, but were not strong enough to do it. They annexed half of Europe for almost half a century, though...until they lost the strength to keep it.

All you did was aid in proving my point that might is what allows for annexation and weakness prevents it.

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Maybe an interesting point, cybrsage, but history also shows, the more a powerful country tries to annex, the thinner and thinner its military gets spread. Its somewhat the dominant lesson in the post colonial world we now live in. And also somewhat a dominant lesson in human civilization. As we ask, how a small nation can become a large and militarily important nations. And the formula is almost always the same, you start small and recruit followers. In the case of Rome, it attracted support because the Pax Romano offered roads, citizenship, equal rights, and the benefits of civilization. But eventually Rome got too big, as most of the outlying countries decided they could offer the same benefits plus have independence. As Rome began its slow decline. But still all of Europe and especially out lying countries suffered buyers remorse, as all of Europe descended into the dark ages of Feudalism instead. Or we can talk about the meteoric rise of Islam in 700 AD, and offered cultural. scientific, and political advances far in advance of of European nations. As again it was recruiting followers as the secret of success.

Its again is why we can't be bullish on Israel's future. Because Israel unlike Christianity and Islam, Jews refuse to recruit followers. And even if Israel has historically been a major player as a medium sized fish in a small pond, its has been dope slapped at least twice in world history when it runs a foul of a real deal world power. First by Babylon and then by the Roman's, and now Israel tries the same failed strategy again. As Israel tries in vain to prevent any of its neighbors from improving their economies on the theory that anything good for its Arab Neighbors is bad for Israel.

Or we can talk about the history of China, the rise of Great Britain as a military power, or talk about the Rise of Russia from a small duchy of Moscow, as it expanded and then contracted. But I am too tired to type more today.

 

[cybrsage]

Three times, you forgot to include Medo-Persia. The Jews do allow converts, though they actively attempt to discourage it - you have to REALLY want it to succeed. It is not part and parcel to the religion, like it is with the two major ones you mentioned.

That said, there are plenty enough Israelis and enough Israeli military power to spare - not even close to being spread thin. Israel has no plans to take over the world, so no need to have a billion Jews around.

 

[Lemon law]

.Accidental double post.

 

[Lemon law]

Three times, you forgot to include Medo-Persia. The Jews do allow converts, though they actively attempt to discourage it - you have to REALLY want it to succeed. It is not part and parcel to the religion, like it is with the two major ones you mentioned.

That said, there are plenty enough Israelis and enough Israeli military power to spare - not even close to being spread thin. Israel has no plans to take over the world, so no need to have a billion Jews around.

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You can say what you want about Israel cybrsage, but remember 300 million Arab, 4 million totally oppressed Palestinians, and the bulk of the world may not agree with you.

But if you want to talk about Medo-Persia, and if you feel froggie, please feel free to make your case.

 

[EagleKeeper]

As Israel tries in vain to prevent any of its neighbors from improving their economies on the theory that anything good for its Arab Neighbors is bad for Israel.

Explain - the only neighbor that Israel has any interest in restricting is the Palestinians because such restrictions prevent them from making attacks on Israel worse.

Israel has not control over the economy of Egypt, Jordan, Syria or Lebanon.
Gaza is only because Egypt does not want them and the Palestinians in Gaza refuse to live in peace with Israel. Israel has to protect herself from Gaza building a system to attack Israel and/or protect the militants when they attack Israel and Israel responds.

The West bank is due to Jordan dumping the area onto Israel and walking away. The West Bank has the economic freedom to trade with other countries and also with Israel.

 

[EagleKeeper]

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You can say what you want about Israel cybrsage, but remember 300 million Arab, 4 million totally oppressed Palestinians, and the bulk of the world may not agree with you.

But if you want to talk about Medo-Persia, and if you feel froggie, please feel free to make your case.

Your oppressed Palestinians are there because they refuse to try and improve themselves and live side by side.

The 300 million Arabs (less a handful) do not give a dam about the Palestinians. there leaders do because it makes an attractive whipping boy to distract from their own internal failures.

The Arab nations that had the ability to do anything about Israel gave up that dream 50 years ago when in all their might and the backing of the soviets could not squish that little thorn.

 

[Lemon law]

As EK gives us the biggest crock of hooie I have ever heard, as he says, "Your oppressed Palestinians are there because they refuse to try and improve themselves and live side by side."

When in fact Israel does not give the Palestinians any chance to do so. They embargo the economies of both Hamas and the West Bank, they control all the water rights, confiscate all their taxes, and the fact is and remains, like American slaves prior to our American civil war., the Palestinians will never free themselves with out external force.

But still EK, maybe you are partially right, the Arabs do not yet have the military force to allow them to free the Pals. But still, that does not mean the Arabs support Israel in any way, and now in the last eighteen months, Israel has lost the support of every mid-eastern neighbor when it used to have. As Israel used to have three mid-east neighbors they could semi-count on and now Israel is down to zero.

But that is not the main factor, the EU has increasing disgust with Israel, its going to become ever more costly for the USA to support only Israel, as the USA is seeing their own foreign policy becoming increasingly more costly and untenable in the mid-east. While at the same time, Russia has no love lost on Israel, Turkey as a new power broker in the mid-east will not tolerate Israeli attacks on Israel, as India and China both want a piece of the Iranian oil market. While the rest of the world in the general assembly tend to side with the Palestinians.

Maybe Nixon and Johnson may have viewed Israel as a stabilizing force in the mid-east, but now most of the world now views Israel as the number one danger to mid-east stability. The larger world may not give a damn about the Palestinians or Israelis, but they have a huge interest in mid-east stability and an Israel increasing going into la la land extremism, leaves the larger world unable to support Israeli extremism as any road to mid-east stability.

And now it goes to the UN general assembly for a vote, its more likely that Israel will be the nation under the microscope.

Like I say, time will tell, and we will see how events will unfold.