Net top CPU and other specs to look for? **EDIT: Bought Acer Aspire Revo Atom 330 ION

[Eug]

I'm mainly a Mac guy these days but my upgraded Cubes are getting long in the tooth even for guest room PCs.

I use a Core i7 iMac for my main machine, but use a G4 1.7 Cube for a VPN computer, which I sometimes watch SD video on, and also a G4 450 Cube for a guest room.

I do have a Windows XP PC, but it's beige box monstrosity, so I keep it in the closet.

I'm thinking of replacing one of the Cubes with a cheap net top computer, but I'm getting mixed messages about the speed of these things. I want a net top that is small form factor and preferably one that can be mounted vertically, but one that also has the ability to run all Flash, etc. heavy websites and all HD video easily, and one that also comes with Windows 7. I don't know if the 64-bit Windows 7 would be preferable in this context, but I've heard some have complained some net tops come with 32-bit Windows 7. Gaming is not important. An optical drive is optional, esp. if there's Gigabit Ethernet included.

Is Atom 330 or D510 really enough? Should I wait for the next generation? Cuz there are some cheap 330 Windows 7 machines popping up these days.

 

[Eug]

One option for me is the Acer R3610 Revo, which is going locally for CAD$320 on sale, incl. Win 7.

- Intel Atom N330 1600 MHz Processor
- 320 GB Serial ATA II HDD
- 3GB DDR2 RAM
- NVIDIA ION Graphics Chipset with (VGA D-sub) and HDMI
- Wireless 802.11b/g Ethernet LAN 10/100
- Four-in-one card reader supporting Secure Digital Memory Stick MultiMediaCard (MMC)
- 6x USB2.0 Ports, Microphone Jack, Headphone Jack, SPDIF


No Optical Drive

Software Included
Windows 7 Home Premium

Microsoft Works 8.5(full version)
Microsoft Office Home&Student 2007(60-days trial)

 

[Zap]

one that also has the ability to run all Flash, etc. heavy websites and all HD video easily
...
Is Atom 330 or D510 really enough?

No.

Atom with ION may be enough as long as you jump through the hoops to get HD video acceleration working properly (magic combination of drivers, proper version of Flash, proper video playback software, proper settings in said software).

The dual core Atoms actually feel fine in normal usage, but I've tested with HD video (without ION) and they are still lacking.

How about something beyond an Atom? Also, what about something a hair larger, but still pretty small?

Dell Inspiron Zino HD is an option. It can be had with dual and quad core AMD CPUs, plus even discrete graphics should the onboard Radeon be insufficient. A complete system with a dual core Athlon II x2 starts at $400.

HP, eMachines and Acer all make micro towers (slim, two expansion slots). These aren't quite nettops, but they are tiny compared to even micro ATX systems.

This eMachines is a single core CPU so I'm a bit hesitant to recommend it, but the specs are decent for $300 as a complete system with Windows 7 64-bit.

If you don't mind building your own (slapping in RAM, HDD and installing Windows) then how about a barebones Zotac that is nettop sized? It has a dual core AMD chip with integrated Radeon. I don't think you can get any higher performance in such a small box.

 

[fffblackmage]

Dell Inspiron Zino HD is an option. It can be had with dual and quad core AMD CPUs, plus even discrete graphics should the onboard Radeon be insufficient. A complete system with a dual core Athlon II x2 starts at $400.

This eMachines is a single core CPU so I'm a bit hesitant to recommend it, but the specs are decent for $300 as a complete system with Windows 7 64-bit.

If you don't mind building your own (slapping in RAM, HDD and installing Windows) then how about a barebones Zotac that is nettop sized? It has a dual core AMD chip with integrated Radeon. I don't think you can get any higher performance in such a small box.

+1

Anything but an Atom.

 

[Eug]

Thanks. I was looking around and the Dell Inspiron Zino HD does seem interesting. The one with Athlon II X2 is $450 in Canada, but it does come with an optical drive.

The eMachines is not available at Newegg.ca, but it is at TigerDirect.ca for CAD$300 as well, so that seems like a very good deal. I do note however, that some reviews have the K125 CPU being problematic for online HD viewing, although OK for viewing of local HD files. There is no X2 version of it, which is disappointing since I'd most definitely pay $50 to get it.

For the Zotac with X2, there is some cryptic comment in the Newegg comments that says that Netflix HD doesn't work with it. I don't understand why. As for Windows 7, that'd be $100, plus the drive and memory, so that adds up quickly. May as well get the Dell which already comes with Windows 7, memory, and hard drive (and an optical drive too).

I see though that the reason the Atom D510 machines are on sale is because D525 is now appearing. Despite the problems, I am still curious about Atom machines. I wonder if the minor speed boost to 1.8 GHz makes any significant difference. The main reason is cost. $320 for a complete machine (with D510) is pretty enticing, as long as locally saved HD works. (What about Blu-ray on Atom? I'm getting an external USB 2.0 BR drive for my Mac.)

But then again, the 1.7 GHz Athlon II is only $300. Do you really think single-core Athlon II is that much better than dual-core Atom?

 

[Rifter]

Honestly i would stay away from the atoms.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Atoms without ion are not good enough for Flash, and with ion it will work for some content but not others.

ASRock has some little "Asrock core" i3 boxes meant for HTPC use, including a $700 model with blu-ray. They don't include Windows or disc playing software though so add that to the cost.

From the banner ads here they are replacing these models next month, and Newegg is sold out of the i3 models.

A $400-500 laptop with HDMI and an over-2 GHz dual core CPU is another option. The 15.6" screen is also large enough to use as a nightstand TV.

 

[Zap]

I do note however, that some reviews have the K125 CPU being problematic for online HD viewing, although OK for viewing of local HD files.
...
Do you really think single-core Athlon II is that much better than dual-core Atom?

Barely. I wouldn't recommend such a low MHz single core Athlon II over a dual core Atom with ION.

Despite the problems, I am still curious about Atom machines. I wonder if the minor speed boost to 1.8 GHz makes any significant difference. The main reason is cost.

IMO not an appreciable difference. I've tested my netbook overclocked to 2GHz and it still had problems with 720P video (locally stored MKV files). That's a single core Atom though, dunno about dual cores.

 

[Eug]

Before I make any decisions, I will wait at least until Atom D525 + ION 2 machines are widely available and tested. It seems the pricing on the new machines is reasonable, with D525/ION2 coming in at US$350 list with Windows 7, for the Acer Aspire Revo AR3700.

Brand: Acer
Series: Aspire Revo
Model: AR3700-U3002
Processor: Intel Atom D525(1.8GHz)
Memory: 2GB DDR2
Hard Drive: 250GB 5400RPM SATA
Graphics: Integrated NVIDIA ION Graphics
Audio: High-Definition Audio Support
Ethernet: Gigabit Ethernet LAN
Wireless Card: 802.11b/g/n Wireless
Power Supply: 65W AC Adapter
Keyboard: Wireless Keyboard
Mouse: Wireless Mouse
Operating System: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Special Features: VESA mounting compliant (100x100 mm, 80x80 mm)
WLAN: 802.11b/g/n Wireless LAN

It even comes with 1 x Mini PCI Express

Hopefully VLC 1.1 will work well with ION 2.

 

[Eug]

Hmmm… That CAD$320 R3610 Atom 330 + Ion comes with 3 GB RAM. The AR3700 Atom D525 + Ion 2 comes with only 2 GB RAM.

For video speed, that wouldn't matter right? Cuz the Ion has its own discrete memory.

It'd be nice to see that Athlon II X2 Dell Inspiron Zino HD match that US $400 price though.

 

[Zap]

It'd be nice to see that Athlon II X2 Dell Inspiron Zino HD match that US $400 price though.

Should check on Dell Outlet. There's a 20% off coupon going right now. I got a notebook from there and it looks/works like brand new.

EDIT:
Read this...
AMD Athlon 2650e & X2 3250e - Better than Atom for SFF Desktops

It is a review of the CPUs that the Dell Inspiron Zino HD uses, with a lot of benchmarks. The Atom 525 should only be around 8% faster than the Atom 510, so it still underperforms a dual core AMD chip.

Here's the coupon for Dell Outlet for 20% off...
Dell Fall Savings promo

Here is what they have in stock. As of writing this, there were 10...
Check price & availability

Cheapest dual core I see is $289 for:
# Processor: AMD Athlon Dual Core X2 3250e Processor (1MB L2, 1.5GHz)
# Genuine Windows 7 Home Premium
# 250 GB SATA II Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
# 2 GB DDR2 SDRAM 800MHz (2 DIMMs)
# 8X DVD +/- RW w/dbl layer write capability
# Integrated ATI Radeon HD3200 Graphics

That's before tax and 20% off coupon (shipping is free). If I were to order it, would cost me about $245 out the door.

 

[Eug]

Arrggh. Yesterday the Zino HD with X2 was CAD$449. Today it is back up to their full list price of $524, or $75 more.

However, there is no fall sale coupon for Dell.ca to compensate and the US 20% off coupon doesn't work.

I guess I'll just have to wait. Oh well, I've waited this long with a G4 1.7, so I'm used to it.

EDIT:

BTW, has anyone tried iTunes HD on an Athlon II X2 Zino HD or equivalent machine? Since there's no GPU acceleration in iTunes for Windows, HD playback is apparently crap on Atom 330 with ION.

I don't use iTunes to stream video, nor do I buy iTunes HD video files. However, I do like play Apple HD trailers. Do these webpage embedded Quicktime trailers work? My guess is yes, since the max embedded ones are 480p, and anything bigger needs to be downloaded.

 

[Zap]

Doh! Didn't know you were our Northern neighbor. Sorry for getting your hopes up.

Dell does sales all the time anyways, so just check every few days.

 

[Eug]

BTW, has anyone tried iTunes HD on an Athlon II X2 Zino HD or equivalent machine? Since there's no GPU acceleration in iTunes for Windows, HD playback is apparently crap on Atom 330 with ION.

I don't use iTunes to stream video, nor do I buy iTunes HD video files. However, I do like play Apple HD trailers. Do these webpage embedded Quicktime trailers work? My guess is yes, since the max embedded ones are 480p, and anything bigger needs to be downloaded.

LOL. What a joke.

I just tried this on my Win XP machine at work, which is a 1.86 GHz Core 2 Duo, with the latest version of Quicktime for Windows. The video is smooth... and unwatchable. Flattened somewhat in Firefox 3.6, and almost completely missing in IE 7.

I guess the only way to reliably play is to download the Quicktime file and play it with another player.

Apple's QT support on Windows really does suck.

 

[Eug]

That's interesting. Since this morning, Dell.ca has changed their entire Zino HD line.

There are no more single-core Zino HD units at all. All of them are dual-core, with minimum 3 GB, and the price has dropped back down $75 to $449 again. Actually, I wonder if they've screwed something up (again). The two bottom models are identical. Identical specs, and identically priced. Upgrade options are the same too, and both offer a free upgrade to a faster CPU. (You don't get the free upgrade unless you specifically choose it though. Lame.) This was also true yesterday, but yesterday, both bottom models were single-core... at a lower price. As of today, there are no CAD$399 Zino HD units.

The high end model has quad-core Phenom, Radeon 5450, 750 GB drive, 6 GB RAM, and Blu-ray.

 

[Eug]

So, I picked up an Acer Aspire Revo R3610 - Atom 330, ION, 2 GB, 160 GB. It was only $259.99 refurb, so I couldn't pass it up. I figure I'll get my feet wet with this one, and then it will go in the guest room, when faster X2 Athlons come out for cheap at Dell or whatever.

The unit itself is fine, but the wireless keyboard is crap. Weird layout, and spongy keys. The wireless mouse didn't work, so Acer is sending me another one. Not that it really matters, because I'll be using a different mouse and keyboard anyway. It came with no disc, and no instructions. I have to make my own restore disc, which would have been impossible had I not just bought a Blu-ray 5.25" drive and USB/eSATA enclosure.

Flash 10.0.32 was choppy, but 10.1 (which is GPU accelerated) seems to solve most problems. I did detect what I think are a couple of dropped frames at 1080p for YouTube sometimes, but I'm not shocked.

1080p Quicktime (8-12 Mbps) works perfectly with Windows Media Player and CCCP installed. Smooth as butter. Playing it with QT player gives slow playback, as QT player is not GPU accelerated.

The 720p HD MKV files I tried also play perfectly with Windows Media Player BUT only the main audio track. If you want to listen to an alternate audio track you're out of luck. (Anyone know how to play the alternate audio track in WMP?) You can choose the alternate audio track in VLC, but playback isn't perfectly smooth for all scenes. It would seem the GPU acceleration in VLC still needs a lot of work. Playback isn't perfectly smooth in MPC-HC either. Turning off the Aero effects didn't seem to help.

The wireless LAN is terrible. It works, but the reception strength is quite poor. My iBook and MacBook Pro get much better connections. Luckily, I just rewired my house to put wired Gigabit Ethernet everywhere.

I have yet to try the memory card slot, VGA, and eSATA. I wonder if GPU-accelerated Blu-ray playback could work on it, but I'm not holding my breath, esp. for the free software that came with my Blu-ray drive.

Generally OS usage is OK, but multitasking with lots of windows open could be better. I guess I'm biased by my 4-core 8-thread i7 with 8 GB RAM. I wonder if the machine was paging to disk with only 2 GB. However, I didn't feel like spending $60 more to get the machine with 3 GB, esp. since this will eventually end up in the guest room.

LOL. What a joke.

I just tried this on my Win XP machine at work, which is a 1.86 GHz Core 2 Duo, with the latest version of Quicktime for Windows. The video is smooth... and unwatchable. Flattened somewhat in Firefox 3.6, and almost completely missing in IE 7.

I guess the only way to reliably play is to download the Quicktime file and play it with another player.

Apple's QT support on Windows really does suck.

I get the same problem in Windows 7 and Firefox on the Acer with embedded QT playback. Very lame, Apple.

 

[Zap]

The unit itself is fine, but the wireless keyboard is crap. Weird layout, and spongy keys.

Sounds just like their notebook keyboards. :thumbsdown:

Thanks for the update!

Can you try playing back Hulu in HD? I already have a Zotac ION board (Atom 330 mini ITX) and was considering building it into a media box. Hmmm, but then again, I typically view 720p MKV files in MPC-HC, so maybe I'm out of luck.

 

[Eug]

Sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed from within the United States

Hulu is committed to making its content available worldwide. To do so, we must work through a number of legal and business issues, including obtaining international streaming rights. Know that we are working to make this happen and will continue to do so. Given the international background of the Hulu team, we have both a professional and personal interest in bringing Hulu to a global audience.

P.S. I briefly got the urge to test out OS X on this machine, but considering I already have so many Macs in the house, it'd just be a waste of time.

P.P.S. What free benchmarketing software should I use? I'm particularly interested in looking at CPU usage while doing various activities.

 

[Emulex]

top?

ion does suck indeed. hell when the heat gets to my old MBA 1.6ghz c2d with sata 4200rpm drive - that won't even play everything you throw at it. most of the time it's cool but that is an ion chipset.

why i tell folks to just find a ghetto blaster c2quad and make a htpc. $200 at cowboom/bb private auctions and done. works beautiful. plays 4K video no sweat. good to go for 8 more years.

 

[Eug]

Yes nettop. Basically a tarted up netbook without the screen. In fact, wikipedia has the Acer Aspire Revo as their example.

So, a few updates:

The Windows Experience rating was as follows (old drivers --> new drivers):

Processor: 3.3
Memory (RAM): 4.2
Graphics: 3.9 --> 3.6
Gaming graphics: 4.9 --> 5.0
Primary hard disk: 5.3

So, the business graphics score actually got worse after a graphics driver update, but the gaming graphics got better. I have no idea what this means for video playback, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference. I'm using Flash 10.1, but haven't tried 10.2 beta yet. I also wonder if I should install the new ION chipset drivers.

One thing I will point out though is that what I was perceiving as occasional dropped frames for YouTube HD video wasn't actually dropped frames. It turns out that some of the video is encoded that way: 16-20 fps.

I did try some 24 fps Flash-based stuff. Most worked perfectly, but a few did not go so perfectly - not sure why though. However, with the "perfectly" working stuff, dropped frames sometimes occured when I did other stuff. eg. Bring up a contextual menu or open something else, etc. If I just sat and watched it, it worked fine. And like I said, Apple's Quicktime trailers look gorgeously smooth in Windows Media Player with the CCCP pack installed.

I figured out how to listen to alternate MKV tracks in Windows Media Player. If you go into the Haali Media Splitter properties, just add "eng" to the audio language priority option. You'd have to remove it later though if you don't want the English track.

A few other things:

Wireless LAN is stable if in the same room as the access point. Never drops, clean connection. So it would seem signal strength is an issue, but once the signal is strong, the connection is robust.

VGA quality is excellent. Pixel matching is perfect on my 1680x1050 Samsung screen.

I still have never heard the fan (except if I put my ear right up to the vent).

They should make the bloatware an optional install. It's annoying having to manually delete/turn off that stuff.

Still haven't tried the eSATA support yet.

 

[Bateluer]

They should make the bloatware an optional install. It's annoying having to manually delete/turn off that stuff.

I have the Atom 330 based Revo myself. I think the new Revo 3700 is about the same cost and has the slightly faster Atom D525 though.

Regardless, the Atom 330 is still a dog. There's a lot to like about the Revos, but you're not going to use them for much. Be realistic. Even as a web surfing machine, they come up pretty short.

 

[Eug]

I have the Atom 330 based Revo myself. I think the new Revo 3700 is about the same cost and has the slightly faster Atom D525 though.

Regardless, the Atom 330 is still a dog. There's a lot to like about the Revos, but you're not going to use them for much. Be realistic. Even as a web surfing machine, they come up pretty short.

This is not my main machine obviously, but I think it's fine as a basic surfing machine. I've been doing just that with it for the last couple of days. You need the latest drivers and Flash 10.1 though.

Oh and I just installed PowerDVD 8 (which is a two year old app) and connected up my Blu-ray burner to it via eSATA to test it out. The Dark Knight BD plays fine, at usually less than 40% CPU usage. DXVA works well.

 

[Bateluer]

Any particular reason you didn't choose the Revo 3700? Its got a marginally more powerful Atom, slightly larger hard drive, and its only about 15 dollars more.

 

[Eug]

Any particular reason you didn't choose the Revo 3700? Its got a marginally more powerful Atom, slightly larger hard drive, and its only about 15 dollars more.

I paid $260 CAD for the Revo R3610 (refurb). The 3700 isn't out yet in Canada, but I'm guessing it will be close to $400 CAD. (It's US$350.)

Also, the review of ION2 has not been stellar, because of the PCIe 1.0 GPU connection weirdness.

The original ION platform was a chipset and integrated graphics solution in a single package that stemmed off the Atom CPU. For a bunch of licensing reasons I described here, NVIDIA wasn’t allowed to build a similar chipset for the new Pine Trail Atom platform and thus had to come up with another solution. The next-generation ION now branches off Intel’s Pine Trail chipset, typically via a single PCIe 1.0 lane offering only 250MB/s of bandwidth to/from the chipset.

This results in a bandwidth bottleneck that can make bandwidth intensive GPU operations (e.g. 3D gaming) worse than the original ION. I suspect most folks don’t buy ION systems to game on them, so the bigger concern is another bandwidth intensive GPU operation: Flash video acceleration.

When you play back a GPU accelerated Flash video stream using Flash 10.1 on a Next Generation ION system the frames are sent to the GPU for decoding but then sent back to the CPU for compositing and finally copied back to the GPU’s frame buffer for display. In the Next Generation ION this happens over the meager PCIe 1.0 x1 interface. That’s thankfully bandwidth enough to decode, composite and display lower resolution Flash video, but not enough for 1080p.

Using current drivers if you try to play a 1080p YouTube HD stream on a Next Generation ION you’ll drop frames because of this bandwidth limitation. It gets worse if you decode and play the stream full screen at a 1080p desktop resolution. As I pointed out in my Next Generation ION review, even playing 480p Hulu content scaled up to 1080p dropped frames. It’s a real problem.

There is an obvious solution: do the entire process on the GPU itself, thus avoiding the copying back and forth over the PCIe x1 connection. NVIDIA told me this was possible, but it required a driver update. I now have that driver update: version 257.29.

The driver isn’t publicly available, although NVIDIA is shooting to have a public beta on June 28th with a WHQL release sometime in July.

I tested the driver with the latest Adobe Flash 10.1 beta (release candidate 7) and the NVIDIA press preview driver I mentioned above. I fired up YouTube in Chrome and picked a 1080p clip.

CPU utilization before and after the updated driver remains the same at around 15 - 20% of the Atom D510’s four threads. But this isn’t a CPU utilization problem. Using the current public driver the 1080p stream is unwatchable at full screen, the system drops a ton of frames. Using the updated driver? Smooth as butter.

It’s not all good news though. The frame rate will drop the minute you move your mouse and reveal the playback controls. That compositing still happens on the CPU. In fact anything that appears over the video kills frame rate. You can stop the playback controls from coming up by simply not moving your mouse, but a YouTube ad appearing over the video is less predictable.

Hulu continues to be a problem. Even a 360p video scaled up to 1080p will drop frames with the new driver. NVIDIA is aware of the issue and is working on it. To NVIDIA’s credit, Hulu has always posed problems for GPU acceleration ever since the Flash 10.1 betas hit.

 

[Eug]

BTW, this is what Anand had to say about Pine Trail and its weak integrated GMA 3150 GPU solution.

Without hardware H.264 acceleration, Pine Trail can’t playback full screen Hulu/Youtube videos at higher desktop resolutions without dropping frames.

The table below shows you what you can/can’t do:

In my opinion this is a serious issue with Pine Trail. You can argue that you don’t need to watch Blu-rays on the platform, but Flash video is everywhere online. It’s watchable full screen at 720p desktop resolutions or lower, but if you’ve got a higher res display you’re better off with Ion.

I've been testing a few more Blu-ray. Works perfectly, very impressive. I tried the movie "Jennifer's Body" which won't even play on my Insignia Blu-ray player because of firmware incompatibilities. Works fine too. (I did update to the latest version of PowerDVD 8.)

Because of this I'm almost tempted to get a dedicated Blu-ray (reader, with DVD burner) USB slimline drive for this machine. It'd be $85 off eBay, but the problem is it doesn't come with software, and PowerDVD costs too much. I believe the version of PowerDVD I got is locked to my LG 5.25" drive. However, for my next SFF purchase, I will consider one with Blu-ray support, if the price is right. I hadn't realized that slimline drives had dropped so far in price. (However, the Dell Zino HD machine with Blu-ray still costs way to much IMO. - CAD$849 minimum - uh, no thx.)

The only real limitation is that when I do play Blu-ray, the rest of the machine feels sluggish. Surfing becomes quite slow, as if I'm running a slow Pentium III or something. Also, the BD advisor tells me that HD dual-video streams won't work, not surprisingly. It does say that 1080p + 480i will work.

As a sort of surrogate test, I ran Blu-ray simultaneously with SD DivX and for the short time I tried it, it worked fine. However, Blu-ray with 720p H.264 MKV caused serious stuttering in both the Blu-ray and the MKV playback.