Nestle CEO: water is not a human right, should be privatized

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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Says the guy who contributes absolutely nothing to society and lives at home leeching off of his parents. I'd love to see you kicked out of your parents house

FACT 1: I own my own house
FACT 2: My mom lives in an apartment and my dad is dead

and forced to pay for privatized water, I'm sure your tune would change real fast.

It's pretty easy to espouse the virtues of the free market when you don't pay for shit!

Okay, lets look at what I actually said:
Water isn't a human right. Though I don't really see the benefit in privatizing it.

Does that seem like a statement supporting the privatizing of water to you? Because it doesn't to me.

So are you saying if water was privatized I would realize how super awesome it was! Or are you just incapable of understanding basic English?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Water needs to be under government regulation, and NOT privatized. Why?

The same reason Utilities are regulated, and the same reason that the health care industry is trying to bankrupt the middle class of this country. Any time something is a necessity, the free market system fails because there is no upward limit to the cost people must pay.

Utilities are regulated not because they are necessities, but because they are a natural monopoly. It is highly inefficient for 2 companies to build separate power lines and water pipes to your house.

Whereas food is even more of a necessity than electricity, but it operates successfully and largely free market principles because competition works in that market.

I always love seeing the argument about what is and what is not a human right. Human rights are whatever we want them to be.

Like high speed Internet access? http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/15/finland.internet.rights/index.html?iref=24hours
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Utilities are regulated not because they are necessities, but because they are a natural monopoly. It is highly inefficient for 2 companies to build separate power lines and water pipes to your house.

Whereas food is even more of a necessity than electricity, but it operates successfully and largely free market principles because competition works in that market.



Like high speed Internet access? http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/15/finland.internet.rights/index.html?iref=24hours

Quite honestly for something to legitimately be called a right it is something that you should have inherently unless someone takes it from you.

Say, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, etc.

"Freedom to have water piped into your house and not pay for it" doesn't really fit.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Like literally whatever we want. Human rights are simply cultural norms we've all decided to follow. Considering that a number of international treaties that the world uses to codify human rights have specifically mentioned a right to access to water as being a human right, your declaration that access to water was not a human right seems kind of stupid.

As usual. lol.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Like literally whatever we want. Human rights are simply cultural norms we've all decided to follow. Considering that a number of international treaties that the world uses to codify human rights have specifically mentioned a right to access to water as being a human right, your declaration that access to water was not a human right seems kind of stupid.

As usual. lol.

Well I guess that all depends on how we are defining "access to water".

Are we defining it the same way freedom of the press is defined? Where you are allowed to buy your printing press and start printing your newspaper?

Or are we defining it to mean like the government is obligated to provide you with a printing press or your rights are being violated? Ala, Detroit and all the crying that people can't have clean water piped into their houses for "free".
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Well I guess that all depends on how we are defining "access to water".

Are we defining it the same way freedom of the press is defined? Where you are allowed to buy your printing press and start printing your newspaper?

Or are we defining it to mean like the government is obligated to provide you with a printing press or your rights are being violated? Ala, Detroit and all the crying that people can't have clean water piped into their houses for "free".

It is defined by the UN as everyone having access to safe water in sufficient amounts. You can get there however you want.

It doesn't matter anyway, the case for privatizing water supplies is stupid regardless of whether or not it is a human right.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
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Imagine that I meet an attractive young lady and ask her to date me. Suppose she refuses. Have my rights been violated? Or suppose I ask to live in your house, and you say no. Have you violated my rights to decent housing? Finally, suppose I knock on your door and tell you I am hungry and wish to share dinner with you and your family. If you refuse, have you violated my rights? I am sure that most Americans, including Senators Clinton, Obama, and McCain, would agree that I have no constitutional, human, or natural right to date someone, or to live in someone’s house, or dine with him. But why?

True rights, such as those in our Constitution, or those considered to be natural or human rights, exist simultaneously among people. The exercise of a right by one person does not diminish those held by another. It imposes no obligations on another except those of non-interference. I have a right to ask a lady for a date, but I have no right to impose an obligation on her to actually date me. Similarly, I have a right to ask you to permit me to live in your house and dine with your family, but I have no right to impose such an obligation on you. Moreover, since I do not have these rights, I do not have a right to delegate authority to government to impose such obligations on another. In other words, from a moral point of view, one can delegate only those rights that one possesses.

To argue that people have a right that imposes obligations on another is absurd. This can be readily seen if we apply such an idea to my rights to speech or travel. Under that vision, my right to free speech would require government-imposed obligations on others to provide me with an auditorium, television studio, or radio station. My right to travel freely would require government-imposed obligations on others to provide me with airfare and hotel accommodations.

For government to guarantee a “right” to health care, or any other good or service, whether a person can afford it or not, it must diminish someone else’s rights, namely his rights to his earnings. The reason is that government has no resources of its own. Moreover, there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy giving the government those resources. The fact that government has no resources of its own forces one to recognize that for government to give one American citizen a dollar, it must first, through intimidation, threats, and coercion, confiscate that dollar from some other American. In other words, if one person has a right to something he did not earn, it of necessity requires another person not to have a right to something that he did earn.

A better term for these new-fangled rights to health care, decent housing, and food is “wishes.” If we called them wishes, I would be in agreement with Clinton, Obama, McCain, and others. I also wish everyone had adequate health care, decent housing, and nutritious meals. However, if we called them wishes, there would be confusion and cognitive dissonance among people calling for socialized medicine. The average American would cringe at the thought of government punishing one person because he refused to make someone else’s wish come true.

Finally, charitable efforts to help one’s fellow man in need are noble. Reaching into one’s own pockets to help is praiseworthy and laudable. Reaching into someone else’s pockets to do so is despicable and worthy of condemnation.

--excerpt by Walter E. Williams
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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True rights, such as those in our Constitution, or those considered to be natural or human rights, exist simultaneously among people. The exercise of a right by one person does not diminish those held by another. It imposes no obligations on another except those of non-interference.

To argue that people have a right that imposes obligations on another is absurd. This can be readily seen if we apply such an idea to my rights to speech or travel. Under that vision, my right to free speech would require government-imposed obligations on others to provide me with an auditorium, television studio, or radio station. My right to travel freely would require government-imposed obligations on others to provide me with airfare and hotel accommodations.

So in other words he is imposing massive restrictions on the behavior of others by preventing them from taking actions that they otherwise might want to.

Negative rights impose constraints on others just as positive rights do. It's plainly absurd to pretend otherwise.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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So in other words he is imposing massive restrictions on the behavior of others by preventing them from taking actions that they otherwise might want to.

Negative rights impose constraints on others just as positive rights do. It's plainly absurd to pretend otherwise.

Negative rights impose constraints

Positive rights impose burdens

Its really pretty simple. Negative "rights" are necessary to have a functional society. I have a right to my own property. Its pretty hard to work together as a group if everyone is "free" to rob one another.

Whereas positive "rights" if anything lead to a dysfunctional society. I have a "right" to food, so why should I bother raising my own chickens when everyone else is obligated to provide me with food anyway? :confused:

I would argue it is plain absurd to consider said situations the same.

EDIT:

Another example.

I have a right to be free to practice the religion of my choice. (negative right)

I have a right to force everyone to build a temple honoring the god of my choice (positive right)

See the difference?
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Negative rights impose constraints

Positive rights impose burdens

So your argument is that preventing people from taking actions they wish to is inherently better than making people take actions they don't wish to. That's without foundation.

Its really pretty simple. Negative "rights" are necessary to have a functional society. I have a right to my own property. Its pretty hard to work together as a group if everyone is "free" to rob one another.

Whereas positive "rights" if anything lead to a dysfunctional society. I have a "right" to food, so why should I bother raising my own chickens when everyone else is obligated to provide me with food anyway? :confused:

I would argue it is plain absurd to consider said situations the same.

You're attempting to cherry pick examples to make a dishonest point, as usual.

Both types of rights impose plenty of duties on other people. In the case of water, for example, negative rights would say that you have no ability to prevent me from literally taking all the water for myself. It's not naturally owned by anyone and you have no right to constrain my behavior.

See how silly it is? This is not difficult to understand. Both types of rights can be used well or poorly and both impose burdens on others.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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So your argument is that preventing people from taking actions they wish to is inherently better than making people take actions they don't wish to. That's without foundation.

Absolutely.

You're attempting to cherry pick examples to make a dishonest point, as usual.

Both types of rights impose plenty of duties on other people. In the case of water, for example, negative rights would say that you have no ability to prevent me from literally taking all the water for myself. It's not naturally owned by anyone and you have no right to constrain my behavior.

See how silly it is? This is not difficult to understand. Both types of rights can be used well or poorly and both impose burdens on others.

Wrong. Negative rights say I have a right to drink water I own. See the bolded in your own statement above.

Its also highly implausible. You would need an awful lot of buckets :D
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Absolutely.

Wrong. Negative rights say I have a right to drink water I own.

Its also highly implausible. You would need an awful lot of buckets :D

That's not what negative rights say at all. Like, in any way. Negative rights say that I'm not able to take YOUR water and drink it, but a river isn't owned by anyone. I can build a dam or pollute the hell out of it, etc, etc. Nobody owns it, and you aren't allowed to constrain my actions.

This is why the idea of negative vs. positive rights is so silly. It's also why your idea that one is inherently better is stupid.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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That's not what negative rights say at all. Like, in any way. Negative rights say that I'm not able to take YOUR water and drink it, but a river isn't owned by anyone. I can build a dam or pollute the hell out of it, etc, etc. Nobody owns it, and you aren't allowed to constrain my actions.

This is why the idea of negative vs. positive rights is so silly. It's also why your idea that one is inherently better is stupid.

Sure I am. Notice what I said:
Negative rights impose constraints

Positive rights impose burdens
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
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So in other words he is imposing massive restrictions on the behavior of others by preventing them from taking actions that they otherwise might want to.

Well...yeah. That's what differentiates humans from animals.

Negative rights impose constraints on others just as positive rights do. It's plainly absurd to pretend otherwise.

No. They do not impose the same kind of restrictions. A negative right to food means I have the right to grow and eat my own food (i.e. property). A positive right to food means I have the right to force you to grow food for me to eat (i.e. slavery).
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
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So your argument is that preventing people from taking actions they wish to is inherently better than making people take actions they don't wish to. That's without foundation.

Without foundation? That is precisely THE foundation of humanity.

Negative right: I wish you were dead, but you have the right to live, so I cannot legally kill you.

Positive right: I wish you were dead, therefore you are obligated to kill yourself.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Well...yeah. That's what differentiates humans from animals.

No. They do not impose the same kind of restrictions. A negative right to food means I have the right to grow and eat my own food (i.e. property). A positive right to food means I have the right to force you to grow food for me to eat (i.e. slavery).

And a negative right that prevents you from constraining my ability to take all the water from the river that feeds your town and let you work for me or die. (slavery)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Without foundation? That is precisely THE foundation of humanity.

Negative right: I wish you were dead, but you have the right to live, so I cannot legally kill you.

Positive right: I wish you were dead, therefore you are obligated to kill yourself.

You don't seem to understand the implications of your rights. They both impose restrictions on others in many of the same ways.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
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He seems like an ass and he makes his motives very clear, but we really do need to rethink the economics or our water supply. I don't think privatizing the water supply is the solution, but pricing it accurately to reflect the supply is absolutely needed.

California is the extreme example right now, but this is an issue globally. People are getting as much cheap water as they want, but supplies unfortunately are a finite thing. As a result we have farmers growing water intensive crops in drought stricken or fresh water comparatively impoverished areas because essentially they don't have to truly pay for it.

The problem is the few who waste it to massive degrees.

Keep it cheap, very cheap, for understandable use. 65 gals per day per person. Up the price substantially/extremely past 125 gallons per person per day.

Poor and middle class folks shouldn't be paying the price because a few folks have 5000+ square foot homes and huge lawns and want to play golf 3x a week on water wasting golf courses.

Average use is 150gallons a day per person in las Angeles county, typical median use per person is well below that, particularly for poorer families in smaller residence or multi family homes.
 
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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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And a negative right that prevents you from constraining my ability to take all the water from the river that feeds your town and let you work for me or die. (slavery)

Too bad their isn't also a negative right to move some place else...

Oh wait. Slavery avoided!:awe:
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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No, they don't. What is and what is not a human right is malleable, so declaring something definitively one way or the other is silly.

I agree. However I interpreted your first sentence to mean that you think it's silly that people argue about what is and is not a right.

If rights are whatever we want them to be, then there must be a debate about what they are. There can only be no argument about what constitutes a right if they're set in stone and not malleable.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I agree. However I interpreted your first sentence to mean that you think it's silly that people argue about what is and is not a right.

If rights are whatever we want them to be, then there must be a debate about what they are. There can only be no argument about what constitutes a right if they're set in stone and not malleable.

that is what I was getting at. I think people generally think that human rights are set in stone and they scoff at the idea that new things might become rights, etc. I should have been clearer.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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that is what I was getting at. I think people generally think that human rights are set in stone and they scoff at the idea that new things might become rights, etc. I should have been clearer.

I don't think the issue is that new things can become human rights.

Its that the left seems to want to define everything they wish people had as a right.

See the prior article about high speed Internet access being declared a "right".

In short calling something a "right" has become nothing more than a propaganda tool