[Neogaf - Rumor] Xbox One yield issues

[Vesku]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=576869

A hint that MS is using GlobalFoundries? ;p

 

[imported_bman]

Be nice to hear IDC thoughts on this. Seems funny to me that the esram would cause such issues while the 1.5x CUs in PS4 do not. I thought s-ram is not overly sensitive to defects and would not be a large source of heat. Was expecting Microsoft to announce an upclock to close the gap with PS4 given the massive heat sink and the idea in my head (probably wrong) that the extra CUs in the PS4 would incur a larger TDP hit than the esram in the XBONE. Maybe we will find out on Monday.

 

[wasabiman123]

Be nice to hear IDC thoughts on this. Seems funny to me that the esram would cause such issues while the 1.5x CUs in PS4 do not. I thought s-ram is not overly sensitive to defects and would not be a large source of heat. Was expecting Microsoft to announce an upclock to close the gap with PS4 given the massive heat sink and the idea in my head (probably wrong) that the extra CUs in the PS4 would incur a larger TDP hit than the esram in the XBONE. Maybe we will find out on Monday.

Considering the ESRAM takes like 25~% of the die...1.6 billion transistors out of 5 billion. Crazy, it's alot less dense than EDRAM, but it has advantages, doesn't have to refresh and can be used for more stuff.

 

[Fox5]

I'd imagine the big advantage for the ESRAM is cheaper costs after a die shrink or two, while PS4 has higher costs with using GDDR5.

 

[wasabiman123]

I'd imagine the big advantage for the ESRAM is cheaper costs after a die shrink or two, while PS4 has higher costs with using GDDR5.

That is indeed one of the reasons, though Sony will likely just use stacked DDR3 when it's available. Sony basically build a template AMD HSA system a year before the actual tech for it exists.

 

[beginner99]

I'd imagine the big advantage for the ESRAM is cheaper costs after a die shrink or two, while PS4 has higher costs with using GDDR5.

Yeah but if you factor in the trouble MS is having now the higher costs for GDDR5 was probably a lot saner engineering choice. Now MS probably needs to cripple it's console for the whole lifetime of it due to a idiotic design decision based on costs. Violation of KISS.

I did not think about this at all until now but reading that link makes it obvious that yields will suck. And then the whole thing about SRAM might be too big (or signal too slow) so that they need to downclock the GPU so that the signal arrives in time...omg. And no one has ever done such a huge eSRAM. Sony went with the much safer, proven design.

 

[wasabiman123]

Yeah but if you factor in the trouble MS is having now the higher costs for GDDR5 was probably a lot saner engineering choice. Now MS probably needs to cripple it's console for the whole lifetime of it due to a idiotic design decision based on costs. Violation of KISS.

I did not think about this at all until now but reading that link makes it obvious that yields will suck. And then the whole thing about SRAM might be too big (or signal too slow) so that they need to downclock the GPU so that the signal arrives in time...omg. And no one has ever done such a huge eSRAM. Sony went with the much safer, proven design.

Yup, though I bet the benefits of ESRAM will come into play, it has some use cases for sure.

 

[DaveSimmons]

It's another example of how Sony and MS traded places in generation next -- this time it's MS that's gone for the exotic design that's harder to develop for (like Cell cores in PS3) and harder to manufacture (like blu-ray drives were in PS3).

Winning the American market really seems to have gone to MS' head.

 

[Timorous]

Yup, though I bet the benefits of ESRAM will come into play, it has some use cases for sure.

There are very few benefits to the ESRAM in the Xbone. It was only used because MS wanted 8GB of ram in their system and they could not guarantee that DDR4 or GDDR5 would be a) available or b) at that density back when they were designing the system so they went with the only option they had which was DDR3 + ESRAM to help offset the lack of memory bandwidth.

When you think about it though trying to get a good yield on a 5billion transistor, ~400mm^2 chip which has the largest ESRAM pool in the world was a big ask so I expect they predicted issues. The question is are the issues worse than predicted or are they right where they expected to be? If the former they might need to downclock to have enough units on the shelves come release but if the latter I doubt there will be any change to the specifications.

 

[insertcarehere]

I'd imagine the big advantage for the ESRAM is cheaper costs after a die shrink or two, while PS4 has higher costs with using GDDR5.

This approach relies heavily on process shrinks arriving in a timely manner and performing adequately to standard though, with the state of semiconductor fabs right now, this doesn't seem to be the wisest choice.

 

[NTMBK]

Hopefully these low yields mean we'll see some sort of die-harvested part as a PC APU!

 

[inf64]

Hopefully these low yields mean we'll see some sort of die-harvested part as a PC APU!

I seriously doubt that will happen.

 

[NTMBK]

I seriously doubt that will happen.

A man can dream.

 

[beginner99]

Hopefully these low yields mean we'll see some sort of die-harvested part as a PC APU!

Would make sense on AMDs part. However question is if the contract with MS allows that.

 

[nehalem256]

Would make sense on AMDs part. However question is if the contract with MS allows that.

It also depends on how the contract is written for if this is a bad thing for AMD or not.

If it is produced at GF and MSFT is the one that eats the bad die costs it is arguably good for AMD as it helps meet the WSA

 

[RussianSensation]

Sony is completely burying MS this generation in terms of specs and execution. If MS doesn't secure 10-15 exclusive AAA games, there is hardly any reason to get Xbox One over PS4 unless MS significantly undercuts Sony's system.

MS also confirmed the 500GB HDD is non-upgradable. In the end that means PS4 will have the best 3rd party game performance/graphics, untouchable first party graphics and with 3GB of memory dedicated to the OS on Xbox One, PS4 will have more effective system memory available for games/GPU. It seems PS4 is beating Xbox One in nearly every key area that matters for games.

 

[Vesku]

Microsoft securing lots of Xbox only titles is a possibility. They spend a lot of money to do things like that. On top of outright exclusivity they also make deals for exclusive release schedules, Skyrim DLC for example. Xbox had a month or two before the DLC was released for other platforms.

 

[24601]

Sony is completely burying MS this generation in terms of specs and execution. If MS doesn't secure 10-15 exclusive AAA games, there is hardly any reason to get Xbox One over PS4 unless MS significantly undercuts Sony's system.

MS also confirmed the 500GB HDD is non-upgradable. In the end that means PS4 will have the best 3rd party game performance/graphics, untouchable first party graphics and with 3GB of memory dedicated to the OS on Xbox One, PS4 will have more effective system memory available for games/GPU. It seems PS4 is beating Xbox One in nearly every key area that matters for games.

At the moment I see only one real advantage for the Xbox One over the PlayStation 4, and that is that you literally get a Windows 8 computer free out of the package, which seems pretty nice if you're not the type of person to have a computer to start with.

 

[Greenlepricon]

At the moment I see only one real advantage for the Xbox One over the PlayStation 4, and that is that you literally get a Windows 8 computer free out of the package, which seems pretty nice if you're not the type of person to have a computer to start with.

Except then you have to pay $50 a year to use those features, and a $500 pc is a better deal in my opinion

 

[24601]

Except then you have to pay $50 a year to use those features, and a $500 pc is a better deal in my opinion

I don't think anyone should forget that Microsoft went full Apple with the first Xbox and has never come back.

There's a reason they don't fund AAA PC games anymore.

The Xbox One is an Apple device in all the ways that matter.

We'll see if people will lap that crap up like they do with Apple appliances.

Also, as you can see from my sig, I'm definitely in the PC camp myself .

 

[Greenlepricon]

I don't think anyone should forget that Microsoft went full Apple with the first Xbox and has never come back.

There's a reason they don't fund AAA PC games anymore.

The Xbox One is an Apple device in all the ways that matter.

We'll see if people will lap that crap up like they do with Apple appliances.

Also, as you can see from my sig, I'm definitely in the PC camp myself .

I noticed you definitely have a very nice PC! Honestly I was really disappointed with the price of the xbox one and am wondering if it is due in part to the chip yields. The attached kinect can't help either, but I've seen computers with better hardware go on sale for less than that.

Honestly I'm hoping Microsoft tries to bring PC gaming back more than they are. It would make sense especially since ports should be easier and cheaper than ever, and I don't really see what they have to lose.

 

[24601]

I noticed you definitely have a very nice PC! Honestly I was really disappointed with the price of the xbox one and am wondering if it is due in part to the chip yields. The attached kinect can't help either, but I've seen computers with better hardware go on sale for less than that.

Honestly I'm hoping Microsoft tries to bring PC gaming back more than they are. It would make sense especially since ports should be easier and cheaper than ever, and I don't really see what they have to lose.

The first time Microsoft's shareholders caught a wiff of Apple's Godlike profit margins selling hardware, they decided to abandon the PC as a legacy platform and try to emulate Apple in every way imaginable.

That's the reason Halo 3 and Halo 4 aren't on PC.

It'll be even more blatantly obvious when Halo 5 isn't on PC when it will literally be programmed in DirectX 11 for the AMD x86 APU with Jaguar CPU and GCN 2.0 GPU Xbox One on Windows 8 kernel, lol.