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Negotiating on a used car at a dealer... UPDATE 2: *GOT IT!!*

slugg

slugg

Diamond Member
So I'll be looking at a car tomorrow at a dealer. I'm just wondering if there are any other aspects to negotiating specifically for a used car at a dealer, rather than a new one. Or heck, even negotiating with a dealer rather an a private party.

The ATG wisdom has been called upon. Grace me with your nobleness!

UPDATE: on my way to buy the car right now. See post 32.

UPDATE 2: I got it! See post 40.
 
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It's really no different than a new car.

The dealer most likely got the car at wholesale pricing (lowballing a trade or picking it up at auction), and then put some money into reconditioning (tires, dings dents, detail etc.). They will then price the car at or near high retail (NADA, Kelly Bluebook) It isn't unusual for a dealer to see $2-3K or more of profit in a used car sale. So the better you can negotiate the more money you will save.

If the used car is the same make as new cars sold at the dealer, you can also negotiate for accessories and service work to sweeten the deal.

Do your homework ahead of time, and know what you want to spend and what you want out of the deal. Ask for the moon and grind back and forth until you get what you want or walk away. Never forget that until you sign and commit you have all the power.
 
Find options, that's the best I can tell you. Hopefully you can find at least 2 or 3 good ones, and then put them against each other.

For me, my last used car buying experience (from a dealership vs a more used car lot type), the decision was made for me by the cars I was considering. In other words, one was a bit more rough than the other.

It tried to haggle a bit on the one I wanted, and we even left and looked at the other one second, but they were pretty firm on price. That being said, the deal was still good enough (same price compared to the other one roughly, with more features, a better service history, and in better shape).

However, if you have 2-3 real options you can pick from, you can maybe get them to work with you. For me, I didn't want to wait several months for something else to pop up, so I took the best of my options.
 
MiataNC said:
It's really no different than a new car. The dealer most likely got the car at wholesale pricing (lowballing a trade or picking it up at auction), and then put some money into reconditioning (tires, dings dents, detail etc.). They will then price the car at or near high retail (NADA, Kelly Bluebook) It isn't unusual for a dealer to see $2-3K or more of profit in a used car sale. So the better you can negotiate the more money you will save.
Click to expand...

I think buying used is much harder than buying new. With new I have some pretty specific price lines on what I can reasonably expect to pay for a car and use services like TrueCar and Costco to take the haggling out of it. I can also go and email 5 different dealers about the same car and get them competing against each other on prices.

With used a lot of that luxury is out the door. You have some rules of thumb to follow, but the reality is that you have no idea how much the dealer has in the car, and how desperate they are to get rid of it. And unless it's an incredibly common car that goes up on lease regularly (like a Camry or Accord or something) you don't have tons of inventory to price shop around as easily or a ballpark idea on residuals that the manufacturers are offering.

I hate used car shopping so much more than "new" car shopping.
 
First thing to do is to find more than one vehicle you're interested in. If you have your heart set on one vehicle, the dealer has already won. Second, go to Edmunds and get a feel for what the vehicle you're looking at is going for with similar options in your area. Next, find what the trade in values for the vehicle you're looking at are. It's pretty safe to assume the dealer has trade in value or less invested in the vehicle plus MAYBE $1000 in making the vehicle ready for retail. Remember, the final price isn't the only thing you'll want to try to negotiate. If you have at least two vehicles you're trying to make a deal on, try to get the best interest rate, extended warranty, and service plan you can thrown in. One rule you should absolutely never violate however is don't buy it the day you look at it. It should take a minimum of three to four days to properly negotiate a vehicle purchase. Remember, the dealership has no emotional attachment to the vehicle and only want to get as much money as possible out of it. They won't offer the best price and incentives if you show you have an attachment to getting that particular vehicle and now.
 
Remember, about trade in values......you'll look at NADA, BlueBook, Edmunds, et al, but that's NOT what the dealer uses. The dealers all use Black Book which is published weekly, reflects what vehicles are bringing at auction and trade, and the values printed in that are lower than anything you'll find, unless you have access to the Black Book.

The most powerful tool you possess is the ability to walk away. Don't be afraid to use it. 🙂
 
All great advice so far, thanks.

I do have a car I want to get rid of, but I don't want to trade it in. I'll be much better off selling it myself. How should I spin this? When they ask if I'm trading it in, should I say yes, no, or I don't know? I understand that I can always change my mind, but this whole thing is just a giant waste of time. I mean "game."

As for financing - I will be financing the vehicle, but I'll have my own financing set up and won't need theirs. Should I tell them that? Or should I make them believe that they'll have the chance to royally screw me in financing?
 
Ask why the car was traded in...what was wrong....what the dealer did to "prep it" for resale...

My car was traded in with a bad clutch...the salesman told me that the dealer had to put $2400 into it to get it ready for sale...well, I figure that they told PO that THAT had to be deducted from the trade-in value, and THAT gave me a clue to what they had into it... and how low I could go in making my offer...
 
I got my used car about 7 months ago. It's a Sky Saturn Redline which isn't in high demand at all, so you'd think they would have worked with me. I sat down with the guy and towards the end asked them to come down on the price. the guy went and talked to his manager and came back and said "we can't do anything more, if you're not interested sorry it didn't work out" I said "not even $500" "have a nice day" he shook my hand and went to help someone else.

I was pretty shocked because this wasn't a car that exactly would be flying off the lot. It might have ended up sitting there for months longer. I called him back and decided to try and work at least something out, basically all I got was some free gas put in the tank. Which still wasn't even full when I left lol. The ad on their web site said manual, but when I got there I saw it was an automatic. I told them I had my heart set on a manual, they didn't even seem to care. It was basically "buy it or leave we really don't a shit" It being a unwanted car might have made it harder for me because they knew this was a pretty rare car to see. So they knew I couldn't just drive around the corner and pick one up from another dealer.
 
slugg said:
All great advice so far, thanks.

I do have a car I want to get rid of, but I don't want to trade it in. I'll be much better off selling it myself. How should I spin this? When they ask if I'm trading it in, should I say yes, no, or I don't know? I understand that I can always change my mind, but this whole thing is just a giant waste of time. I mean "game."

As for financing - I will be financing the vehicle, but I'll have my own financing set up and won't need theirs. Should I tell them that? Or should I make them believe that they'll have the chance to royally screw me in financing?
Click to expand...

I'd avoid any talk of trade in to start. Just get a clear picture on what you're buying. IE - Dealer A wants $10000, Dealer B wants $11000, and Dealer C wants $9000. When you get a clear picture on that, if you want to bring in the option of a trade, have a clear idea of what you want out of it. I usually peruse truecar/CL and compare to others. Chances are, the dealer won't give you all of that, so if you want to sell it privately, you'll probably get the most out of it that way.

But in the long run, avoid confusion and focus on the principal values. They're going to want to snow you with x dollars a month, and while that is a good number to have going forward, they can hide a lot there.
 
QueBert said:
I got my used car about 7 months ago. It's a Sky Saturn Redline which isn't in high demand at all, so you'd think they would have worked with me. I sat down with the guy and towards the end asked them to come down on the price. the guy went and talked to his manager and came back and said "we can't do anything more, if you're not interested sorry it didn't work out" I said "not even $500" "have a nice day" he shook my hand and went to help someone else.

I was pretty shocked because this wasn't a car that exactly would be flying off the lot. It might have ended up sitting there for months longer. I called him back and decided to try and work at least something out, basically all I got was some free gas put in the tank. Which still wasn't even full when I left lol. The ad on their web site said manual, but when I got there I saw it was an automatic. I told them I had my heart set on a manual, they didn't even seem to care. It was basically "buy it or leave we really don't a shit" It being a unwanted car might have made it harder for me because they knew this was a pretty rare car to see. So they knew I couldn't just drive around the corner and pick one up from another dealer.
Click to expand...

If the car is somewhat unique, the managers like to get sticker. They know someone will be willing to pay up for the uniqueness. Only thing you could have leveraged was timing, if it was the end of the month. They already read your body language and knew you were extremely interested.
 
When I worked at a dealership (a long time ago) I remember learning that more profit gets made on each used car sale compared to a new car sale. That doesn't take into account on how many used vs. new cars are sold, but it might give you an idea of how much wiggle room you have.

Frankly, there are a thousand variables. As said before: don't be afraid to walk away. Don't get distracted by how much per month. Try to play cars off each other when possible. It's great to be able to say: I'm buying a car today. If not from you, than from your competitor (but, only if you really mean it).

Good luck, and please post back with pictures!
 
Well I rescheduled with the dealer until tomorrow. So... I'll post back and we'll see how it goes. If I end up picking it up, this will officially be the first car I've ever had that has been in warranty! 😉
 
So here's the status update. I never mentioned it, but the car is a 2011 Mazda 2 with enough miles to barely be out of all warranty.

The dealer was asking 9800 online. When I got there, the price was magically $1k higher. I told the salesperson that this price is a mistake and I don't want to even look at it if they think they're going to begin the conversation with bait-and-switch. He quickly retracted and said that the online price is an online special and that it would definitely be honored. So then I didn't leave.

He pointed out that the red Mazda 2 had nice black-with-red-stripes "sporty" rims (some kind of XXR 17 inchers). He kept trying to tell me stuff as I inspected the car for damage, but I tuned him out. Other than what looks like an acorn ding on the roof, the car was solid outside. Inside, it had a couple scuffs where your feet probably step into the car on the driver's side. No big deal. Great shape, otherwise.

So I decide to go on a drive. As soon as we left, I explained to him that there's something wrong with this car. Why would a person pay for the Touring trim, only to replace the premium OEM wheels with these cheap, heavy, ricer pieces of garbage? He didn't understand the point, because the OEM ones are 15 inch and these are an "upgraded" 17 inch.

I put the car through its paces very aggressively. More accurately, you could say that I rung the shit out of that car and took some really, really hard turns. That thing is freaking awesome, for what it is. It feels like a front wheel drive, bigger, 4/5 door hatchback Miata! The slow, 100 horsepower of FURY made me smile like a big idiot, exactly as the car's dumbass-but-loveable face suggests. And the salesperson was freaking out and feeling like he was going to die. My girlfriend was laughing her ass off, because she used to ride-along with me all the time at autocross events.

"You see how these little bumps on the inside of the turn were kinda rough?" I asked.

"uhh.... I guess yea..." he replied.

"That's because Mazda engineers determined it would be best to have a light weight, 15 inch wheel rather than a heavy, bling-bling, Walmart grade 17 inch pig on the axle."

Quick aside: if you want a not-so-boring econobox, the Mazda 2 is totally a driver's car. My only complaint, all things being equal, is that the gearing between first and second is too wide apart. All the more reason to rev up to the limiter, I suppose... 😉

... anyways. We got back to the stealership. I told him that the car is missing OEM equipment that makes the Touring a Touring, so that the price definitely has to come down. "How much?" Well, that's when we went inside to start that whole game.

He asked me if I'd be financing. I said yes. He asked me if I wanted typical rates, or if I wanted accurate ones tailored to me. I told him I don't want any credit inquiries, so they started me out at 10% APR (LOL!!!!). I sarcastically said "wow, that's a fantastic rate!" I'm not entirely sure if he thought I was serious or not. My credit card is lower.

He gave me the typical pitch. I grabbed the paper, crossed out the useless and stupid addons dealerships like to put in, crossed out the $600 dealer fee, and placed a new price of something much lower. He left to his manager and came back with the barely adjusted at all, then the dealer fee was added again.

"Well, by law, we're forced to charge this dealer fee," says he.

"I'm aware of that. So make it disappear in the price of the car. And that's still way too high" says I.

Blah blah, more waiting and BS... He gets back to me, "Did you want to trade in that car?"

"No. But like they say - everything's for sale for the right price. Make me an offer I can't refuse and you have a deal."

As expected, they tried to screw me. I told them forget the trade-in and let's just focus on the car. I explained that the only reason why I entertained the trade-is is because if they gave me full retail, I'd be willing to pay the what I considered full retail on their car.

"Sorry, this is the best we can do."

I stood up, shook hands with the salesperson, said thank you, and he stopped me. The manager came by and tried to explain the trade to me. I told him the trade was off the table and that they're asking way too much for the Mazda 2. He explained to me that they're actually going to lose money on the car. I laughed and I said "well I wouldn't want you guys to lose money, so I'll go ahead and find another car." Again, I stood up, but the manager stopped me.

"Our general manager happens to be here. Let me see if we can talk to him."

When he came back, the price of the car went down a little more. But it still wasn't even close to the original figure I told them.

"This is the best we can do," say they.

"That's what you said 30 minutes ago, and here we are," says I. That guy was so pissed. "You're going to keep this car for maybe a week or two more, then ship it to another dealership after it doesn't sell, because you'd been listing this car for over a month and it hasn't moved. Carfax shows it's been in your possession for two months - you can't sell it and you know it. And the only reason why you're going back and fourth with me right now is because you don't want to spend the money to move the car to another dealership, or possibly get stuck with it within this fiscal year. At this point, this particular car has become a liability rather than a margin item and you're willing to accept some loss in order to keep your average in the green. There is a number you're willing to go to, but since you've changed your mind already half an hour ago, it seems like we'll have to be here for days before you tell me your bottom line."

The manager and salesperson were just silent. The manager started to shake a bit - either he was angry, nervous, or maybe even just putting on an act. Who knows. But after an awkward silence, I stood up and said "Tell you what. You guys have been great, so I'll just leave you to it. If you change your mind, I'd be willing to start a new conversation if I haven't already bought another car. You have my phone number. Thank you very much." I grabbed the price quote, shook hands, and walked out.

The truth of the matter is, the price quote was pretty good, but not great. Considering that the wheels suck and that it'd take $900+ for good wheels and tires, the price sucked. So that's that.

.... So now I'm at home reflowing a motherboard for my neighbor. LOL! That was an interesting day. I hate dealerships.
 
slugg said:
I put the car through its paces very aggressively. More accurately, you could say that I rung the shit out of that car and took some really, really hard turns. That thing is freaking awesome, for what it is. It feels like a front wheel drive, bigger, 4/5 door hatchback Miata! The slow, 100 horsepower of FURY made me smile like a big idiot, exactly as the car's dumbass-but-loveable face suggests. And the salesperson was freaking out and feeling like he was going to die. My girlfriend was laughing her ass off, because she used to ride-along with me all the time at autocross events.
Click to expand...

There's a guy in my local autox club who's been a regular in STR (99 Miata with some mods) and is usually in the top 10 in PAX every time he runs. He bought a Mazda 2 half way through the season, and now he runs that in Solo, RallyCross, Track days, you name it.

I didn't quite get why, until I saw him tear it up at one of the Solo events. With just light weight wheels and good tires, that thing is impressive. Carries speed through turns pretty well.

In fact, if you're in the market for that class of car, check out the Yaris too. If you can find a stick-shift Hatch, those things are pretty much in the same category as the Mazda2 in terms of low speed fun. Also, Zage makes a bolt-on turbo kit for the Yaris. 😉
 
Now, that is how you buy (or not!) a car! Seriously, you did great and most likely they will call back before the end of the year.
 
slugg said:
So here's the status update. I never mentioned it, but the car is a 2011 Mazda 2 with enough miles to barely be out of all warranty.

The dealer was asking 9800 online. When I got there, the price was magically $1k higher. I told the salesperson that this price is a mistake and I don't want to even look at it if they think they're going to begin the conversation with bait-and-switch. He quickly retracted and said that the online price is an online special and that it would definitely be honored. So then I didn't leave.

He pointed out that the red Mazda 2 had nice black-with-red-stripes "sporty" rims (some kind of XXR 17 inchers). He kept trying to tell me stuff as I inspected the car for damage, but I tuned him out. Other than what looks like an acorn ding on the roof, the car was solid outside. Inside, it had a couple scuffs where your feet probably step into the car on the driver's side. No big deal. Great shape, otherwise.

So I decide to go on a drive. As soon as we left, I explained to him that there's something wrong with this car. Why would a person pay for the Touring trim, only to replace the premium OEM wheels with these cheap, heavy, ricer pieces of garbage? He didn't understand the point, because the OEM ones are 15 inch and these are an "upgraded" 17 inch.

I put the car through its paces very aggressively. More accurately, you could say that I rung the shit out of that car and took some really, really hard turns. That thing is freaking awesome, for what it is. It feels like a front wheel drive, bigger, 4/5 door hatchback Miata! The slow, 100 horsepower of FURY made me smile like a big idiot, exactly as the car's dumbass-but-loveable face suggests. And the salesperson was freaking out and feeling like he was going to die. My girlfriend was laughing her ass off, because she used to ride-along with me all the time at autocross events.

"You see how these little bumps on the inside of the turn were kinda rough?" I asked.

"uhh.... I guess yea..." he replied.

"That's because Mazda engineers determined it would be best to have a light weight, 15 inch wheel rather than a heavy, bling-bling, Walmart grade 17 inch pig on the axle."

Quick aside: if you want a not-so-boring econobox, the Mazda 2 is totally a driver's car. My only complaint, all things being equal, is that the gearing between first and second is too wide apart. All the more reason to rev up to the limiter, I suppose... 😉

... anyways. We got back to the stealership. I told him that the car is missing OEM equipment that makes the Touring a Touring, so that the price definitely has to come down. "How much?" Well, that's when we went inside to start that whole game.

He asked me if I'd be financing. I said yes. He asked me if I wanted typical rates, or if I wanted accurate ones tailored to me. I told him I don't want any credit inquiries, so they started me out at 10% APR (LOL!!!!). I sarcastically said "wow, that's a fantastic rate!" I'm not entirely sure if he thought I was serious or not. My credit card is lower.

He gave me the typical pitch. I grabbed the paper, crossed out the useless and stupid addons dealerships like to put in, crossed out the $600 dealer fee, and placed a new price of something much lower. He left to his manager and came back with the barely adjusted at all, then the dealer fee was added again.

"Well, by law, we're forced to charge this dealer fee," says he.

"I'm aware of that. So make it disappear in the price of the car. And that's still way too high" says I.

Blah blah, more waiting and BS... He gets back to me, "Did you want to trade in that car?"

"No. But like they say - everything's for sale for the right price. Make me an offer I can't refuse and you have a deal."

As expected, they tried to screw me. I told them forget the trade-in and let's just focus on the car. I explained that the only reason why I entertained the trade-is is because if they gave me full retail, I'd be willing to pay the what I considered full retail on their car.

"Sorry, this is the best we can do."

I stood up, shook hands with the salesperson, said thank you, and he stopped me. The manager came by and tried to explain the trade to me. I told him the trade was off the table and that they're asking way too much for the Mazda 2. He explained to me that they're actually going to lose money on the car. I laughed and I said "well I wouldn't want you guys to lose money, so I'll go ahead and find another car." Again, I stood up, but the manager stopped me.

"Our general manager happens to be here. Let me see if we can talk to him."

When he came back, the price of the car went down a little more. But it still wasn't even close to the original figure I told them.

"This is the best we can do," say they.

"That's what you said 30 minutes ago, and here we are," says I. That guy was so pissed. "You're going to keep this car for maybe a week or two more, then ship it to another dealership after it doesn't sell, because you'd been listing this car for over a month and it hasn't moved. Carfax shows it's been in your possession for two months - you can't sell it and you know it. And the only reason why you're going back and fourth with me right now is because you don't want to spend the money to move the car to another dealership, or possibly get stuck with it within this fiscal year. At this point, this particular car has become a liability rather than a margin item and you're willing to accept some loss in order to keep your average in the green. There is a number you're willing to go to, but since you've changed your mind already half an hour ago, it seems like we'll have to be here for days before you tell me your bottom line."

The manager and salesperson were just silent. The manager started to shake a bit - either he was angry, nervous, or maybe even just putting on an act. Who knows. But after an awkward silence, I stood up and said "Tell you what. You guys have been great, so I'll just leave you to it. If you change your mind, I'd be willing to start a new conversation if I haven't already bought another car. You have my phone number. Thank you very much." I grabbed the price quote, shook hands, and walked out.

The truth of the matter is, the price quote was pretty good, but not great. Considering that the wheels suck and that it'd take $900+ for good wheels and tires, the price sucked. So that's that.

.... So now I'm at home reflowing a motherboard for my neighbor. LOL! That was an interesting day. I hate dealerships.
Click to expand...

quoted for "this is how you buy a car"
 
An interesting plot twist: I didn't get a call.

... But I did get an email! All of a sudden, the "best they can do" is a bit lower - lowet than the last time it was the "best they could do," which was lower than the first time they said it was the "best they could do." Now we're in the realm of reality with the price. It's not enough for me to irresistibly jump on it, but now I haven't ruled it out either. I'm considering whether or not I should try showing up at the dealer and giving it another go, or just walking away permanently. We'll see. There are other Mazda 2's for sale - maybe those sellers/dealers will play less games with me. I'm bored of this crap.
 
Is this Maz2 a stick....I ask because I rented one with the AT while looking for a car to replace my totaled Altima....and it was awful....I couldn't ever get it into the right gear.
 
satyajitmenon said:
There's a guy in my local autox club who's been a regular in STR (99 Miata with some mods) and is usually in the top 10 in PAX every time he runs. He bought a Mazda 2 half way through the season, and now he runs that in Solo, RallyCross, Track days, you name it.

I didn't quite get why, until I saw him tear it up at one of the Solo events. With just light weight wheels and good tires, that thing is impressive. Carries speed through turns pretty well.

In fact, if you're in the market for that class of car, check out the Yaris too. If you can find a stick-shift Hatch, those things are pretty much in the same category as the Mazda2 in terms of low speed fun. Also, Zage makes a bolt-on turbo kit for the Yaris. 😉
Click to expand...

I was considering the Yaris, too. But then I drove one and I felt like I was sitting in a dining chair. The driving position is way better in the '2, which seems to me something Mazda nails consistently. The only other brand that nails it, in my opinion, is BMW. But I'm biased, I guess. 😉
 
For me, the best negotiation was always pure cash. "I got this much cash I'll give you right now" "take it or leave it" and whip it out...it does a lot of talking when you rush them like that and has saved me a lot in the past.
But obviously if your talking more than a few thousand then that kinda ruins that.
 
Damn, seems like you beat them at their own game lol. Might need to bookmark that. May try to buy a new or lightly used car for the wife next year.

Haven't set foot looking to buy at a dealer since I was maybe 19. Honest to god they would not even tell me the price of the car until I signed. Just kept repeating I'd be happy with the price and not to worry. Argued with them to just fucking tell me, but they never did even as I walked away laughing. Seriously wtf was that?
 
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