Need Wireless Network advice, large-area hotspot

[RyanM]

I'm finally moving beyond doing teensy small business networking jobs and getting my feet wet in some deeper waters, and I get hit outta the blue with this one:

A previous client has referred me to their private club, which is in need of a whole-area wireless hotspot install for the members.

So suddenly I'm thrust from 3000 sq ft offices with off-the-shelf network hardware to a 15000+ sq ft villa in one of the ritzier parts of town.

I'm both squealing with glee and pissing my pants.

I'm set to do the site survey on the 8th of November, but I'm sure this is going to be a bit more in-depth than what I've needed to do for small offices. I somehow doubt I'm going to be able to get away with taking a sub $120 router and sticking a big-honking antenna on it and calling it a network.

So what kind of things should I be looking out for? There's the obvious; places to route network cabling, locations for APs, see how signal carries through various locations, etc. What else should I be looking out for/considering?

I'm having a feeling this is going to be a very big learning experience if I end up taking on the job, so anyone who knows this stuff would really be helping me out with any advice and recommendations.

 

[RyanM]

anyone? Bueller?

 

[nweaver]

1. If it's out of your league, admit it and move one (better then getting a whole club telling everyone how shoddy your work is) (not saying it is, just saying that you should admit it if it ends up being that way)
2. I would look at high quality AP's, such as Cisco 1200 series, and setting up WDS authentication, with fast roaming capabilities. This would enable someone to wander from one end to the other, swapping AP's 3-4 times, all while in the midddle of a download and not having a hiccup. The 1200's also feature a bit more "oomf" then your standard AP, with 100 Mw radios.

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: nweaver
1. If it's out of your league, admit it and move one (better then getting a whole club telling everyone how shoddy your work is) (not saying it is, just saying that you should admit it if it ends up being that way)
2. I would look at high quality AP's, such as Cisco 1200 series, and setting up WDS authentication, with fast roaming capabilities. This would enable someone to wander from one end to the other, swapping AP's 3-4 times, all while in the midddle of a download and not having a hiccup. The 1200's also feature a bit more "oomf" then your standard AP, with 100 Mw radios.

I won't really know if it's outta my league if I haven't tried it I suppose. It's definitely high risk for me, but I'll know better if it's beyond my capabilities after I do the site survey next week.

I'll definitely look into those ones. As far as authentication goes, I haven't consulted with the client yet, but I'm unsure if they're going to want an open hotspot like at a hotel, or if they're going to want to have to go through the hassle of rotating passwords with RADIUS or whatnot.

I assume since it's a country club, they'll want the network as secure as the front door is to unwanted intruders, but there's the flipside, that your typical country club member might not be able to handle the concept of a username and password for wireless. 😉

If you have any other recommendations, good resources to check out for crash coursing on Cisco stuff, lemme know. I've played with everything consumer-grade out there, but have never had my hands on any piece of networking equipment that fetched more than $250 by itself. heh

 

[spidey07]

Machfive,

forget about equipment or how you are going to do this.

Gather the requirements, THEN do the design. There's about 3 dozen different ways to do this and how it is accomplished depends on the requirements.

Guest access? Secured access? What about security between clients? Logging/tracking? Performance? Billing? Multiple SSIDs? Captive portals?

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Machfive,

forget about equipment or how you are going to do this.

Gather the requirements, THEN do the design. There's about 3 dozen different ways to do this and how it is accomplished depends on the requirements.

Guest access? Secured access? What about security between clients? Logging/tracking? Performance? Billing? Multiple SSIDs? Captive portals?

Thanks for the suggestion! The only things the client has informed me of at this point is that they want it to be available to club members (though they haven't specified if that includes guests) for free, so there won't be a billing system. I'm fairly sure a single SSID system would be preferable from a simplicity standpoint, and at this point, I'm pretty sure a nomadic roaming setup would suffice, although I'll offer seamless as an possibility if they want it.

I'm still unsure what the client wants as far as security between the client and the AP. What sort of possibilities are there with regards to security between clients, captive portals, and logging/tracking?

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: MachFive

Originally posted by: spidey07
Machfive,

forget about equipment or how you are going to do this.

Gather the requirements, THEN do the design. There's about 3 dozen different ways to do this and how it is accomplished depends on the requirements.

Guest access? Secured access? What about security between clients? Logging/tracking? Performance? Billing? Multiple SSIDs? Captive portals?

Thanks for the suggestion! The only things the client has informed me of at this point is that they want it to be available to club members (though they haven't specified if that includes guests) for free, so there won't be a billing system. I'm fairly sure a single SSID system would be preferable from a simplicity standpoint, and at this point, I'm pretty sure a nomadic roaming setup would suffice, although I'll offer seamless as an possibility if they want it.

I'm still unsure what the client wants as far as security between the client and the AP. What sort of possibilities are there with regards to security between clients, captive portals, and logging/tracking?

What the client wants the clients gets. Remember that.

You'll have to pardon my French, but you are asking a lot of questions that scare me. I would've at least expected the installer to have setup some sort of WDS system before.

While you are 'learning,' they are 'paying,' and in the spirit of true honestly, you should accept that this, for the time being, is out of your league.

With Cisco, you need the CLI. Sure there are web interfaces, but.....

You are going to need a good router to handle the authentication capabilities of the APs.

In addition, a site survey should require you to test signal strength and be able to calculate the number of APs and the corresponding coverage you will get.


In the end, I will put two recommendations on the table. YOu can do with them what you wish, and in the end, it is your call:

Option a) you admit that you are out of your league. You admit that if anything goes wrong you are fvked. You admit that you best learn how to do this right before you risk making enemies and waste their money


Option b) you acknowledge that asking questions isn't going to get you anywhere. You acknowledge that the companies that do this sort of thing are trained professionals with the education and resources that you do not have. You take the initiative to learn the Cisco IOS or figure out some other implementation by the likes of DLINK or whatever that you can pull this job off with. You spend night and day learning from the ground up, how you setup network based on the CUSTOMERS requirements/needs.


Frankly, both options can lead to enlightenment, but realize that thought hard work and painstaking suffering, option two will give you cred, and not much else. You will still know everything half-assed unless you really go for it and get your CCNA and CCNP in a week or something, and even then that won't mean much.

My point is, this isn't' a game. They are putting real Benjamin's on the table, and giving them a recommendation to a great IT company will still be a good thing on your part.


Watch yourself. This isn't the same as pulling off a marketing presentation. You actually have to know what you are doing here, not for when things go right, but when they go wrong.


*turns off light bulb in dark room, turns on all the lights, unties MACHFIVE and lets him go free....*

 

[Goosemaster]

btw, since you seem like you need some help, I created a captive portal tutorial using m0n0wall, a php-driven freeBSD distribution.

While the specifics might not be helpful the concepts should be sound, such as bandwidth management and the like.

 

[spyordie007]

With Cisco, you need the CLI. Sure there are web interfaces, but.....

Not necessarily true. If you are doing enterprise deployments it's almost always WCS :thumbsup: (granted you're going to need the CLI on the switches the APs and WLCs connect to, but that's a bedtime story for a different night)

Spidey is right, you're going to need to know exactly what the requirements are and get them all down in an agreed-upon scope of work. You need to know what their assumptions are when they say "club member access" and you need to be able to know how you're going to control and secure access to the network resources before you start talking about the hardware to do it.

15k sq ft' private club and I would be thinking Cisco 4402 WLC so I could do centralized setup and administration, plus LobbyAmbassador (so access could be limited to only the guests they really want to have access). For the APs 1242s would do well, fiber out to NEMA enclosures with access and the AP inside and an external mast-mount antenna. Yes it's going to be a little spendy to get deployed, but much better than trying to deal with issues that arise because you cut corners at deployment.

As for your site survey I'm just hoping you've done them before and know what you're after. If you cant trust layer 1 you may as well give up now 😉

<- Does this for a living (when not deploying other Cisco or Microsoft technologies). Cisco gold certified partner, advanced WLAN.

Erik

 

[RyanM]

Goose, Spy, greatly appreciate the help. When I get back with the site survey results, I'll probably have a whole slew of other questions, but for now, I've got some reading to do. Thanks guys for giving me a good place to start!

 

[nweaver]

not that it's bad, but a CCNA/NP doesn't qualify, and not having doesn't disqualify. I'm pretty sure I could cram for a day and pass the NA, maybe even the NP and the wireless one...

as it stands, I'm A+ Certified, and network+ certified. The first means I can turn a computer on, and have a pulse, the second means I can answer obscure, poorly worded questions that will mean nothing in the real world.


not that certs are bad, but I don't have time for them...doesn't mean I can't stand toe to toe with one...