Question Need to build a new HTPC - Need Motherboard Advice

[bob4432]

Motherboard Advice Please:

Currently running a i5-2500K on a ASRock z68 MB. MB is starting to have some hardware issues and with it being this time of year, figure this would be the best time to upgrade price wise. I have been eyeing the AMD Ryzen 5 3400G cpu and also the Ryzen 3 3200G as this machine will be mostly for HTPC along with web browsing and maybe some gaming, but not planning on any of the gaming portion. If it turns out I do do some gaming, if the internal GPU is not enough, I have a Sapphire NItro+ AMD RX5808GB Card (the blue card) for that and figure that would be g2g on a 1080p display (if it would be much of an upgrade over the Vega 8 or 11 in either?). I have a couple ADATA 2x8GB DDR4-3000 packs of RAM, along w/ a new case, Seasonic 80+ Gold PSU and am planning my first venture into the NVMe SSD, thinking of the one of the Samsung 970 Pro or Plus 500GB units, mixed in w/ a pair of X TB HDDs in a RAID1 for storage and then probably a USB3 or USB3.1 external for a 'real' backup in addition to the RAID1 HDDs.

For the time being, I will be using a 50" 1080p display, using HDMI into my Denon Audio Receiver and letting it handle the audio and also video connections.

I am looking for a MB (mATX or ATX) that is known stable, has the capacity to run the CPUs I listed w/ no problem, run the 500GB NVMe SSD Samsung Pro or Plus at full speed, along with at least 1GbE Ethernet (already have Ethernet everywhere it needs to go), run a RAID1 array along w/ 1, possibly 2 BluRay drives. Not worried about RGB or Liquid Cooling - plan on using the stock cooler that comes w/ the CPU as I have read it is more than adequate or I have a Cooler Master Hyper 212 on the current machine that could be moved over to the new build if it is better than the Wraith AMD cooler. I have looked at B450 MBs as they seem tried and trued, but am I missing anything that a x470 would offer w/out breaking the bank? If possible, I would like to run the Samsung 970 Pro or Plus at full speed, run 2 drives in a RAID1 Array for storage for other computers on the LAN for backups along w/ my audio/video collection and then at least 1, if not 2 BluRay drives. I plan on picking up an external USB3 or USB3.1 ~10TB hdd for a backup of the whole machine. FWIW, I plan on keeping this machine in the described role for, well as long as it will last, so at least 5-7 years. I would prefer ATX MBs, but a mATX is not a deal breaker if it does everything I need it to do. I do not need onboard WiFi or BT. The only major change I see coming anytime soon would be moving to a 4K display, but that is about it since 10GbE is still so expensive, but that may be the other upgrade I do to the home LAN if/when prices on 10GbE switches drop in prices.

I appreciate your advice. While I do not have unlimited funds, but for the amount of time I will have this, I do not mind spending a bit more if there is a definite reliability or serious performance increase.

Thanks in advance,
Bob

 

[jana519]

Don't know the AMD sphere very well, though I should.

Check our this thread: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/b450-vs-x470.2558647/

Seems the biggest difference is X470 has SLI and better VRMs for overclocking the -X variant CPUs. Also the X470 might have more USB ports overall, but I imagine a good quality B450 would have plenty.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

For what you're describing, any B450 board would likely do. The 3200G/3400G aren't that demanding. It only sounds like you potentially need a PCIe slot for 10Gb ethernet, which is very easy since you're not going to use discrete graphics. So just use that slot.

If you want something a bit fancy, and don't mind ATX, I'm very happy with my Asus B450-E. It has been rock solid with my 3600. But that is getting into X470 territory price-wise.

BTW, using the discrete 580 would actually be a downgrade for video compared with the integrated Vega. I think you'll find it more then adequate. Even the very basic Vega3 in my HTPC doesn't have any issues with 4K content. (The HTPC uses a very basic Asus A320M-K)

 

[bob4432]

For what you're describing, any B450 board would likely do. The 3200G/3400G aren't that demanding. It only sounds like you potentially need a PCIe slot for 10Gb ethernet, which is very easy since you're not going to use discrete graphics. So just use that slot.

If you want something a bit fancy, and don't mind ATX, I'm very happy with my Asus B450-E. It has been rock solid with my 3600. But that is getting into X470 territory price-wise.

BTW, using the discrete 580 would actually be a downgrade for video compared with the integrated Vega. I think you'll find it more then adequate. Even the very basic Vega3 in my HTPC doesn't have any issues with 4K content. (The HTPC uses a very basic Asus A320M-K)

So a RX580/8GB dedicated card is slower than the stock GPU in a 3400G?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

So a RX580/8GB dedicated card is slower than the stock GPU in a 3400G?

No, the 580 is way, way faster. For graphics. But the Vega IGP has both a newer video encode/decode block, and a newer display engine. The same as is used on the RX 5000-series in fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon#Feature_overview
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit#Feature_overview

 

[bob4432]

Came to the conclusion of two MBs (as I don't want to be an early adopter of the X570 boards and go through their bios issues for the next year) - ASRock X470 Master SLI/AC AM4 - https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813157833?item=N82E16813157833 for ~$130-$135
or the ASRock B450 PRO4 AM4 - https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=Asrock+b450+pro for ~$80.
My question is, is the X470 MB worth the extra ~$50 considering I will not be using RGB, built-in WiFi or liquid cooling options. Does the build quality and different LAN & Audio chipset, along with a bit better quality caps and power regulation really show through considering I will be running the machine 24/7 for the next 5+ years? FWIW, this will be connected to a Cu Ethernet LAN, so I max it out @ 100MB/s, until 10GbE switches come down in price.
Thanks in advance,
Bob

 

[Markfw]

Came to the conclusion of two MBs (as I don't want to be an early adopter of the X570 boards and go through their bios issues for the next year) - ASRock X470 Master SLI/AC AM4 - https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813157833?item=N82E16813157833 for ~$130-$135
or the ASRock B450 PRO4 AM4 - https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=Asrock+b450+pro for ~$80.
My question is, is the X470 MB worth the extra ~$50 considering I will not be using RGB, built-in WiFi or liquid cooling options. Does the build quality and different LAN & Audio chipset, along with a bit better quality caps and power regulation really show through considering I will be running the machine 24/7 for the next 5+ years? FWIW, this will be connected to a Cu Ethernet LAN, so I max it out @ 100MB/s, until 10GbE switches come down in price.
Thanks in advance,
Bob

I vote for the x470, they are always built better than b450

 

[bob4432]

My bad about the X570 MB issue I alluded to, seems my info was bad. One question I do have - do all the X570 boards have active cooling on the chipset? After thinking about the fact that I would like to buy for a decent amount of time, an X570 makes sense. Only issue I see is the active cooling on the chipset, which I am going to look into how much heat needs to be dissipated. I have built machines for a long time, just took a multi year break due to health & life situations, so getting back upto speed about current tech, but in the past I had used MBs w/ small active cooling solutions for the chipset and routinely that was the fan that was always the lowest quality and first to go - since all the other fans are easy to swap out for quality units, the manf makes the one that would be the biggest pita to change a poor quality unit....

How long is AMD going to stay w/ the AM4 socket? Reason I am asking is because after looking over the prices, going from a B450 to X470 is a decent jump $$ wise for the MB only, but the CPU & NVMe are either the same price or just a very small increase jump, then at that time, going from a X470 -> X570 is not a big deal.

I know this is off topic for this forum, but are the PCI-E GEN 4 x4 NVMe SSDs backward compatible with a CPU that only supports GEN 3 x4?

Thanks in advance,
Bob

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Well, the X470 vs X570 question is something you alone can answer. I guess you could make a case either way, so if you feel like going X570, then it's the right decision.

I know this is off topic for this forum, but are the PCI-E GEN 4 x4 NVMe SSDs backward compatible with a CPU that only supports GEN 3 x4?

Yup. PCIe is always fully backwards compatible. It'd even work in a 1.1 x4 slot, though you'd be unable to boot from it.

 

[bob4432]

Couple last questions - 1 - how long is AMD going to be using the AM4 skt & 2 - can somebody recommend a quality x570 MB in the $120-$160 range? Over the years I have probably used all the different manf and have had good luck w/ all, so the manf is not a problem.

I will need a NVMe skt for booting, 2 for BluRays and 2 for a Raid1 array? Size is not an issue. You guys are more up-to-date as far as the manf - if any turned bad.

I am kicking around the idea of a 3400G or just going with one of the non "G" chips and and use a RX580/8G since it is just sitting collecting dust. If possible I would like the replacement CPU be close in price to the 3400G.

Thank you all in advance,
Bob

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Couple last questions - 1 - how long is AMD going to be using the AM4 skt &

From what we know, there should be one more CPU generation on AM4.

2 - can somebody recommend a quality x570 MB in the $120-$160 range? Over the years I have probably used all the different manf and have had good luck w/ all, so the manf is not a problem.

I will need a NVMe skt for booting, 2 for BluRays and 2 for a Raid1 array? Size is not an issue. You guys are more up-to-date as far as the manf - if any turned bad.

$160 seems to be pretty entry level for X570 (I'm in Europe, so I don't really have feel with US pricing), so set expectations accordingly. The Asus X570-P seems like a decent entry level X570 board, but I haven't researched it.

I am kicking around the idea of a 3400G or just going with one of the non "G" chips and and use a RX580/8G since it is just sitting collecting dust. If possible I would like the replacement CPU be close in price to the 3400G.

If you're going to use the 580, I'd rather have a 3600+B450 combo, then a 3400G+X570 combo. X570 is completely unnecessary for an APU, and Zen2 is a major upgrade compared to Zen+ in Raven Ridge/Picasso.

 

[bob4432]

From what we know, there should be one more CPU generation on AM4.



$160 seems to be pretty entry level for X570 (I'm in Europe, so I don't really have feel with US pricing), so set expectations accordingly. The Asus X570-P seems like a decent entry level X570 board, but I haven't researched it.



If you're going to use the 580, I'd rather have a 3600+B450 combo, then a 3400G+X570 combo. X570 is completely unnecessary for an APU, and Zen2 is a major upgrade compared to Zen+ in Raven Ridge/Picasso.

Thank you for your input. Can I ask why adding the 580/8G would change you MB to. B450? Why would a X570 be a bad choice?

FWIW, I use to mine w/ the 580/8Gs & 570/4Gs but where I live in the US (Phx, AZ - multiple months of daytime temps over 100F (37.78C) & 110F (43.33C) with some days hitting 115F (46.11C) or even higher and it would cool down to only ~90F (32.22C) - heat island effect, or so I could only run a few months due to the amount of heat put out by the rig since it was running 24/7 (maybe 4MOS, give or take), and then when you take into account the rig's power draw and having to run the A/C so much more it didn't make financial sense, plus I got in a bit late so the cards were a bit high ($$).

Another question would be a X470 MB due to their much lower chipset power needs.

This brings another question - which B450 board? I was eyeing a MSI due to not having to have a CPU inserted for a BIOS update, and that appealed to me since the last AMD CPU I had was an Opteron 165 (if memory serves me correctly).

Thanks for the info, greatly appreciated.
Bob

 

[bob4432]

Bump, would really like to get this ordered as the current MB is showing its age...

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Thank you for your input. Can I ask why adding the 580/8G would change you MB to. B450? Why would a X570 be a bad choice?

Simple. The X570 features PCIe 4.0. Current APUs don't, so unless you're planning on upgrading your CPU later, you're paying extra for features that your APU doesn't support. Another thing is that APUs aren't that demanding, so X570-boards are way overspecced for them.

Current Raven Ridge/Picasso-based APUs are of an earlier generation compared to Zen2/Matisse. Picasso in particular is not Zen2, despite sharing a 3000-series designation with them.

 

[bob4432]

Simple. The X570 features PCIe 4.0. Current APUs don't, so unless you're planning on upgrading your CPU later, you're paying extra for features that your APU doesn't support. Another thing is that APUs aren't that demanding, so X570-boards are way overspecced for them.

Current Raven Ridge/Picasso-based APUs are of an earlier generation compared to Zen2/Matisse. Picasso in particular is not Zen2, despite sharing a 3000-series designation with them.

Thanks. I was contemplating on putting in a 500GB PCI-E GEN 4 X4 "boot drive" if I went the x570 route, but I honestly don't know if it is money wasted as I already have a SATAIII 500 GB " boot drive" and was going to move up to a GEN 3 X4 NVMe "boot drive". I know on paper it is a large difference in I/Os and thoroughput, but all I am going to is open up some browser windows, VLC & a couple other programs that I can wait the uS or mS to open since this is just for a HTPC, no gaming, Solidworks, PCB/Schematic board layout program, parts or multiple parts of the Adobe Suite or anything else that I could see benefitting from the near doubling in bandwidth & speed. Plus I think it may have been (not 100%) sure you who told me only 1 more generation, possibly 2 with the AM4 socket, so not a lot of long term use upgrade unless I were to upgrade the CPU later when I can get something with more core & threads cheap, but I just don't see the need, unless the manf process is getting close to it's max @ 7nm, but I am sure the engineers will figure something out. Or is the higher quality CPU Power Setup worth the extra price IYO? Again, I plan on building this, even if it's just HTPC, for the long haul. Decisions, decisions. I guess a question would be is a high quality B450 board going to be built better than even a mid quality x570 board all around? Also, I am kind of leaning on MSI since I don't have a older AM4 CPU to boot with for a BIOS update to get me started. About the only upgrade I can see in the not too distant future is moving my LAN to 10GbE if that makes a difference, but I figure that would be via a PCI-E add in card and x580/8 GPU should last me a good time since I rip my movies to a home server and the put the discs away for safe keeping. And I don't see moving to an 8K display anytime soon since I am still using a 1080p display which is doing fine, and the 4Ks aren't too much $$ should something happen to or I need another 50”+ display.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to a AMD Roadmap handy would you?

I greatly appreciate you input, time & education.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Alright, lets see;

Thanks. I was contemplating on putting in a 500GB PCI-E GEN 4 X4 "boot drive" if I went the x570 route, but I honestly don't know if it is money wasted as I already have a SATAIII 500 GB " boot drive" and was going to move up to a GEN 3 X4 NVMe "boot drive". I know on paper it is a large difference in I/Os and thoroughput, but all I am going to is open up some browser windows, VLC & a couple other programs that I can wait the uS or mS to open since this is just for a HTPC, no gaming, Solidworks, PCB/Schematic board layout program, parts or multiple parts of the Adobe Suite or anything else that I could see benefitting from the near doubling in bandwidth & speed.

In any consumer workload, you're very unlikely to "feel" any difference between an (modern, post 2017'ish) AHCI and an NVMe drive. The jump in perceivable performance from AHCI to NVMe is nothing compared to the rather dramatic difference between an SSD and a HDD.

There are a few caveats, of course, but nothing that should be any issue with a HTPC.

Plus I think it may have been (not 100%) sure you who told me only 1 more generation, possibly 2 with the AM4 socket, so not a lot of long term use upgrade unless I were to upgrade the CPU later when I can get something with more core & threads cheap, but I just don't see the need, unless the manf process is getting close to it's max @ 7nm, but I am sure the engineers will figure something out. Or is the higher quality CPU Power Setup worth the extra price IYO? Again, I plan on building this, even if it's just HTPC, for the long haul. Decisions, decisions. I guess a question would be is a high quality B450 board going to be built better than even a mid quality x570 board all around? Also, I am kind of leaning on MSI since I don't have a older AM4 CPU to boot with for a BIOS update to get me started.

We don't -know- what AMD is planning post-Zen3. Zen3 has pretty much been confirmed in some form on AM4. But we don't know -how- they're planning on handling it. It could be that there will be specific boards/chipsets required. No one knows yet. Other then that, there have been rumours of AM5 in 2021. But nothing reliable so far to my knowledge.

As to whether a high quality power setup is really "worth it", that'll always be an individual decision. As with HDDs I've seen cheap-and-cheerful boards last 10 years (well, at least after they moved to solid caps), and high-end boards fail within a few months. So nothing is guaranteed in reliability terms.

About the BIOS, some boards allow you to flash a new BIOS without even a CPU present. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but when I bought my A320M-K*, it booted right up, with an unknown/unsupported APU (Athlon 200GE). I'm not sure it would have allowed an install of Windows, but I was able to update the BIOS. Of course YMMV.

There should be shops around who'll tell you if a particular board comes with a compatible BIOS for a particular CPU generation. If they're unwilling, I'd take my patronage elsewhere.

*Arrived with a BIOS revision almost without even Raven Ridge support. Think it was the first RR AGESA released.

About the only upgrade I can see in the not too distant future is moving my LAN to 10GbE if that makes a difference, but I figure that would be via a PCI-E add in card and x580/8 GPU should last me a good time since I rip my movies to a home server and the put the discs away for safe keeping. And I don't see moving to an 8K display anytime soon since I am still using a 1080p display which is doing fine, and the 4Ks aren't too much $$ should something happen to or I need another 50”+ display.

Right. Be aware APUs only have 8 PCIe lanes available from the CPU. This means -some- slots might not work. You may have to consult the mainboard manual for that kind of information.

You'll likely have a good laugh at my current setup. That's alright. It's a very basic Athlon 200GE in the equally basic A320M-K, coupled with 16GBs worth of 2666MHz RAM. Why 16GB? Seems way overkill doesn't it? Because AMD's memory controller loves dual rank DIMMs, and 16GB is the minimum for two ranks/four banks. Outperforms single rank 3200MHz easily.

Al tough basic, it does everything I need, including 4K content, with a very respectable power consumption too. I.e. almost nothing.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to a AMD Roadmap handy would you?

Closest I could find:

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/amd-roadmaps-mention-rdna2zen3-and-zen4.html

 

[Magic Carpet]

For 65w CPUs even simple/cheap boards should be plenty... I wouldn’t invest in features/extra power circuitry that I won’t need. For HTPC I’d rather go Intel, just because their integrated GPUs are efficient with video codecs. That 580gb card, I’d put on eBay while it still can fetch a few quid.

Longevity shouldn’t be a concern at this moment, since the next significant boost will come with DDR5 memory, which is roughly 1.5 year away. Don’t spend more than you need now, I’d rather upgrade again in 3 years.

 

[Topweasel]

I would like to throw something in about socket longevity.

You are looking at a 4c/8t APU. Even if AMD stopped supporting AM4 with the Zen 2 APU's early next year. You would have 2 sets of options another APU with the Zen2 ones rumored to be scaling to 8c and the other being the current 3950x. Meaning you can double your cores and increase iGPU peformance (and add another 15-20% CPU performance per core with only a slight uptick in clock speeds). Or you can quadruple your core count when you are ready for a GPU, probably with something closer to a 40% boost per core considering the clock boost of running the true desktop CPU. That is one hell of an upgrade path. To top it off AMD generally keeps the CPU's available for a while and they see drastic discounts in price when new gens hit (man I really wish they did that with the Phenom II lineup, really wanted a thuban cheap but they dissapeared instantly). So while a 3950x might seem well out of your price range now, it could go down to $300-$400 in less than 1 year.

Not to say AMD won't keep it going for another gen. But considering what we have been used to. Even if a B450/x470 board was a deadend platform, the sky is the limit almost on upgrade options without changing anything else.