Need some clarification on the Windows 8.1 mouse latency issue

[OhFiddlesticks]

Hello all,

Don't worry this isn't a 'W7 vs W8/8.1' post or 'is the lag issue is fixed or not yet'. I'm aware that, despite its faults, W8/8.1 is still a better OS and is pretty much the only game in town if people want full OS support from Microsoft past Q1 of 2015. I am making this post, however, because the ability for 8.1 to operate well while playing games concerns me. I'm trying to dig deeper as it does seem like the latency issue has not been resolved for some users.

I've searched online about this issue and can't get any real info other than the late Oct/early Nov articles and forum posts about the lag issue initially emerging and about the KB fix Microsoft put out. I've noticed in my later searches here and in forums etc. that only some people seem to be having the issue while others who supposedly play the same games say they have had no issues (And still others say they never had any even before the KB fix). I've also noticed that it looks like it somewhat depends on the mouse used, drivers used etc. which has me confused.

As I understood the KB article, Microsoft stated that the latency issue was with games that didn't use the DirectInput API but instead used the raw mouse input so it should be pretty consistent with a game no matter who plays it right?

So my questions are:

• Does it matter/has it helped to perform a clean install of Window 8.1, then update all drivers/firmware for all devices and then install/update games as opposed to doing a "dirty" upgrade?
• Are only updaters to 8.1 (From 8 or 7) having an issue still?
• Is it only certain mice or driver versions of the mice?
• Are high DPI (1000Hz Gaming) mice affected only or is it all mice?
• Or is this all up to each game developer to release a patch that works better with the Windows 8.1 DirectInput framework?

If I'm off base, let me know; I've been working on a system build over the past few months and the more news I hear about 8/8.1 (Driver issues, game incompatibilities, this mouse lag) the more it bums me out. The last thing I want to do is get this thing up and running then have to hack, tinker and registry edit to get games to run. I realize some work is required but MS doesn't look like they are helping matters much by flipping stuff upside down (Similar to the DirectSound crap they pulled back in the Vista days which pretty much single-handedly killed off the 3D audio market)

Thanks for taking time to read this.

P.S. While I have your ears bent, to those that have Windows 8.1, what other glaring issues or problems you have had with gaming and 8.1 that I should look out for?

 

[jolancer]

why not just use win7?

I havn't used or looked into either, but just by the random titles posted around the net i can already tell win8 is along the lines of winME

Any time I've had a software issue downgrading to the one that use to work for me has always worked flawlessly. The Software developer or producers especially will tell you thats a bad idea yada yada yada i want more money bla bla please give me more money yada yada

 

[CRCSUX]

The mouse issue was fixed, Ive used 8/8.1 now for a year + now and have had very little problems.

I mainly game on my home pc.
I didnt do a clean install 8 to 8.1(I wanted to but got lazy).

I used win 8 and now 8.1 stock with no added start menu this or that.
I can jump around faster than I could in win 7 (either starting programs or finding control panel/admin settings).

 

[ShintaiDK]

The mouse flaw is an OS bug. And the fix is not applied to all games. You ahve to manually add any game you got problems with besides the shipped list:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2908279

The default list contains:

Call of Duty: Black Ops
Call of Duty: Black Ops - Multiplayer
Call of Duty: Black Ops II
Call of Duty: Black Ops II - Multiplayer
Call of Duty: Black Ops II - Zombies
Call of Duty: Ghosts - Multiplayer
Call of Duty: MW2
Call of Duty: MW2 - Multiplayer
Call of Duty: MW3
Call of Duty: MW3 - Multiplayer
Call of Duty: MW
Call of Duty: MW - Multiplayer
Counter Strike: Global Offensive
Counter Strike: Source
Deus Ex : Human Revolution
Deus Ex : Human Revolution Director's Cut
Hitman Absolution
Hitman Sniper Challenge
Half Life 2
Metro 2033
Portal
Tomb Raider

 

[Mem]

why not just use win7?

I havn't used or looked into either, but just by the random titles posted around the net i can already tell win8 is along the lines of winME

Any time I've had a software issue downgrading to the one that use to work for me has always worked flawlessly. The Software developer or producers especially will tell you thats a bad idea yada yada yada i want more money bla bla please give me more money yada yada

Great another FUD post from somebody that does not even bother to try it himself or reads too much into negative threads.

I use Linux,Win8/8.1 and have used 7,Win8.1 is fine and as a gamer myself not had any issues with mouse lag and I use a 1600hz gaming optical mouse I purchased from ebay,drivers are Windows default ones so plug and play.

As previously posted there is a patch out for games that are effected if you do have the issue.

So far I've not needed to install any mouse lag patch,my Win8.1 was a clean install.

For the record I prefer Win8.1 over Win7 anytime so take note jolancer a positive post infact plenty of these over at OCUK.

 

[Mushkins]

Great another FUD post from somebody that does not even bother to try it himself or reads too much into negative threads.

I use Linux,Win8/8.1 and have used 7,Win8.1 is fine and as a gamer myself not had any issues with mouse lag and I use a 1600hz gaming optical mouse I purchased from ebay,drivers are Windows default ones so plug and play.

As previously posted there is a patch out for games that are effected if you do have the issue.

So far I've not needed to install any mouse lag patch,my Win8.1 was a clean install.

For the record I prefer Win8.1 over Win7 anytime so take note jolancer a positive post infact plenty of these over at OCUK.

It's not really FUD, it's a known issue with the OS, and the fix from Microsoft does not cover every game with the issue. Microsoft specifically has instructions on how to expand their fix to work with other games via registry edits right in the technet article.

"Why not use Windows 7" is a legitimate suggestion to the OP, who is focused on PC gaming. You could use Windows 8.1 and futz with known technical issues directly impacting the software he plans to use, or you could use Windows 7 and... not. Who would knowingly and intentionally introduce disruptive problems to their computing environment? I know I have no plans to install 8.1 anytime soon because of this issue, and I *do* have systems running both 7 and 8.

 

[Mem]

It's not really FUD, it's a known issue with the OS, and the fix from Microsoft does not cover every game with the issue. Microsoft specifically has instructions on how to expand their fix to work with other games via registry edits right in the technet article.

"Why not use Windows 7" is a legitimate suggestion to the OP, who is focused on PC gaming. You could use Windows 8.1 and futz with known technical issues directly impacting the software he plans to use, or you could use Windows 7 and... not. Who would knowingly and intentionally introduce disruptive problems to their computing environment? I know I have no plans to install 8.1 anytime soon because of this issue, and I *do* have systems running both 7 and 8.

You misread what I meant,FUD part was about Win8 being like WinME and everybody hating it,even worst making invalid judgements without even trying it but based on hear say threads,I already stated there was a patch out about lag issue so acknowledge that so hope that's clear .

 

[trillock]

I tried Win 8 when I bought it on offer for £25, and didn't much like it.

Then I tried the preview Win 8.1 and didn't much like that either, so I reformatted and put on Win 8 and updated it, and then disconnected the HDD to await the full release of 8.1.

When It came out I installed that over Win 8 and after tweaking it a bit and installing 'Classic Shell' so that the 'start' screen is available, but rarely used.

I actually quite like it now, and it works very well.

I use it for gaming, but all of my games except BF3 (which I have lost interest in) are all old ones dating from UT99 - BF3.

I also use Vista Ultimate as an alternative to Win 7 which I don't particularly like....yes, I know everyone hates Vista, but it serves me well without giving me any grief. :biggrin:

I use a Gigabyte 'Ghost' M8000X mouse, but without the software, and as far as I can tell I don't have any problems using it on Win 8.1.

I keep Vista and Win 8.1 on seperate HDD's and boot them up via the choices in the BIOS.

 

[Mem]

I know everyone hates Vista, but it serves me well without giving me any grief. :biggrin:

It amazes me how everybody thinks they can speak for everyone else ,I actually liked Vista too,goes to show don't read too much into anti-hate threads or posts.

Behave yourselves, kids...
-ViRGE

 

[rob426]

This issue occurs because Windows 8.1 introduced changes to mouse input processing for low latency interaction scenarios. Therefore, games respond to mouse inputs differently in Windows 8.1 than in previous versions of Windows

Can someone explain the above in layman's terms, and any idea what issues users were having in previous windows (win8 and below) that microsoft needed to make this change in 8.1

 

[OhFiddlesticks]

The mouse flaw is an OS bug. And the fix is not applied to all games. You ahve to manually add any game you got problems with besides the shipped list:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2908279

The default list contains:

So then are we just relegated to constant hacks/edits of the registry and tweaks just to get some damn games to work? Because From the looks of that list, MS patched about 0.00012% of the games currently in the PC library. Are they going to release further fixes to completely address this problem or is that one KB patch really it?

 

[ShintaiDK]

So then are we just relegated to constant hacks/edits of the registry and tweaks just to get some damn games to work? Because From the looks of that list, MS patched about 0.00012% of the games currently in the PC library. Are they going to release further fixes to completely address this problem or is that one KB patch really it?

I think the KB is it.

 

[trillock]

It amazes me how everybody thinks they can speak for everyone else ,I actually liked Vista too,goes to show don't read too much into anti-hate threads or posts.

Behave yourselves, kids...
-ViRGE

Well, it does seem to be the consensus of opinion that Vista is crap, but I don't know why. Even though you are having a peck at me, I warmly welcome you to the 'I like Vista' club, since we don't have many members.:biggrin:

 

[Mem]

Well, it does seem to be the consensus of opinion that Vista is crap, but I don't know why. Even though you are having a peck at me, I warmly welcome you to the 'I like Vista' club, since we don't have many members.:biggrin:

It was not a peck ,might seem that way to you and ViRGE but that was not my intention ,as you know we all have various different opinions that was my point, there will always be something to moan about with operating systems,at least with Vista they can't moan about the start button menu .

Problem with Vista IMHO was the fact manufacturers were very lazy getting driver support out for it in the early days,it had some FUD because of that,by SP2 it was a very solid OS. .

I warmly welcome you to the 'I like Vista' club, since we don't have many members.:biggrin:

You will be surprised there are more then you think,I know some admin users in various companies that refuse to upgrade to 7 or 8 because they are happy with Vista.

 

[OhFiddlesticks]

Guys, yes, Vista after the service packs and driver support is fine and is essentially Windows 7, but can we please stay on topic?

I still don't understand how a lot of people are saying they have had no issues with 8.1 and others are, yet they play the same games. Is there a particular mouse that maybe works better with 8.1 whether its the driver software or actual hardware mouse? trillock says he uses the default Windows driver (I'm assuming that's what "without the software" means) so maybe it is the drivers of some mice fighting with 8.1; I have heard issues with Razer and Steelseries mice not reporting proper polling rates. trillock when you reinstalled 8.1 after the preview, did you just do a clean install on that drive?

It's starting to make sense for me (although Microsoft doesn't even hint at it) that updating to 8.1 instead of doing a clean install is possibly a factor in the mouse lag and other issues. I know that it shouldn't matter because 8.1 specifically changes the way it handles mice so it shouldn't matter if it's an update or clean install but maybe doing a total wipe and reinstall does something with the drivers, registry etc?

And rob, to answer your question, I believe MS did this in keeping with the 'mobile' theme of the OS; polling a mouse more often and keeping it fully powered etc uses more power so they are dumbing it down; that's my take anyway.

 

[Mem]

OhFiddlesticks:
You should try it for yourself and find out,gamers all have different setups ie mouse model and games so only person that can answer all the info you need is yourself,personallly not had any issues in gaming with my mouse ,all running smooth and yes I know it's not what you want to hear but as I've already stated we all have run different hardware and games etc...


Right off to game now on 8.1 .

 

[code65536]

The mouse flaw is an OS bug. And the fix is not applied to all games. You ahve to manually add any game you got problems with besides the shipped list:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2908279

Did you read the article that you linked?

This issue occurs because Windows 8.1 introduced changes to mouse input processing for low latency interaction scenarios. Therefore, games respond to mouse inputs differently in Windows 8.1 than in previous versions of Windows.

Not a flaw. A design change that broke programs that relied on undocumented features.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

System-wide fix win81 mouse fluidity

 

[OhFiddlesticks]

Thanks for that link cannon cocker (Assuming that from your name )
A question though; not doubting the validity of what BlurBusters did because those guys do know some stuff, but if this resolves all issues, why wouldn't Microsoft have implemented this fix rather than regediting every single game you have? Is there some advantage to editing each game to get it to work over this solution or did this Windows Explorer fix genuinely slip past MS?

code65536, what do you mean by undocumented features? I thought most games prefer RAW input (Especially competitive games), not DirectInput, for faster response times by not having to go through an API? Would this change be something developers can implement in the future so we don't have to regedit their games to get them to be usable?