Need some advice/help concerning religion and LOTR

[DavidTigerFan]

Before I get started I want to tell each one of you that I have the utmost respect for all that post here. There is not one place in this world that I could broach a subject like this and get so many sides to one topic. This is one of the most mature and caring forums I visit.

Now here is the problem:

I have been anxiously waiting for Lord of the Rings to come to movies. Every preview I see I am more excited to go. I am 24 years old, have a degree in chemistry and computer science, and overall I guess I am a typical anandtech member. I play Diablo2 and Dark Age of Camelot, I read star trek novels, fictional stories involving theoretical physics, and I love to cook. I have been dating Jen for over three years now, but alot of that has been LDR because of school and my job. She is graduating in December 2002 and hopefully she will be moving back down to me.

I am currently an agnostic in my beliefs and for 3 years that has been fine with her. I go to church when she asks me to go, but other than that I don't associate much with any church. She goes to Campus Crusade for Christ at school, bible studies on Wednesdays and church on most Sundays. Now I have always known how involved she is and I respect that fine, but sometimes that her and her mother say just piss me off.

A while back when all the hype over the 4th Harry Potter book came out I was watching TV at Jen's parent's house. I saw the thing on TV and said offhand that I'd like to get those books to see what they are all about. Jen wasn't in the room, but her mother was and she said "Well you aren't bringing them in my house..." I thought she was joking so I played along and asked why not. She explained that the books promoted witchcraft and were evil so they weren't coming in her house. I thought this was pretty closed minded so I pressed further... I asked her if she had actually READ any of the books to which she replied "no". Now I am silently fuming, because what can I do? I can't blurt out to my possible future mother in law that I think she is an ignorant close minded Luddite now can I? So I shut up and try not to think about it.

Flash forward to this past week. I had convinced myself that Jen definitely wouldn't go to Harry Potter the movie so I settled and decided to wait for video. I had also all but convinced myself that she wouldn't go to LOTR either, but I mentioned it one day in regards to a double date with some friends of mine. She was surprisingly open to going, and although she said she probably wouldn't enjoy it she'd go with me. I was happy so I ordered the tickets online ahead of time. Then last night she told me that her mother was planning dinner and asked her where she would be. Jen told her that she'd be out with me at LOTR with my friends. Supposedly her mother got very mad and upset because Jen said she would go and told her not to. So I ask Jen if she wants to go or not, and of course now she says no. So now I have to sell one of my tickets to my bud and be the third wheel with him and his wife.
I wanted to really know what was bugging Jen so much so I asked her later that night if she thought I was a bad person for going to LOTR. I tried to explain the whole fantasy/real life bit, as well as the fact that LOTR is a story about good VS evil. Of course none of that sank in and all she could tell me was that any movie "like that" allows satan to get a hold of your brain and that there was more to "spiritual warfare" than me or her knew. I was flabbergasted. I never realized how much brainwashing her mother had done to her and now I am questioning whether or not I want to be with someone so closed minded. Everything else in our relationship is great, but this is a VERY big issue to me. All my life I have bitched about "those people" that press their religion on other people and now come to find out, I am dating one!

I need some advice folks...any and all views welcome.

 

[Electric Amish]

Live with it or bail now.

amish

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ahh, no problem (well with women this is always dangerous to say). FYI Tolkien was one of the leading christian apologist of his day, along with C.S. Lewis. You can always use that on them. Bottom line, it was written buy one of the best Christian minds of his day. So... ask her what is wrong with that. As far as her religious beliefs go, they are hers and you'll either have to put up with them or not. Anyway, would be interested to see if she even KNEW Tolkien was a christian

 

[Ameesh]

OMG!!! OH NO! AIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! NOOOOOO!O!OO!O!!!!



seriously though, why did you get involved with here? these people are the same that would burn the harry potter books if they could, they are ridiculous cult members, and telling you not to see LOTR is just the first steps, tell her right now that you dont care for people who are closeminded and delusioned. you'll be at odds with her and her

<< ignorant close minded Luddite >>

(well put) mother. put your fooot down now for the little things or its gonna get worse from them on.

 

[BigSmooth]

It's easy for me to say this because I am not in your position, but if I found out my girlfriend's mother felt that way (and by extension, so did my girlfriend), I would probably get out of the relationship.

Of the hobbies you just listed, her mom would probably think two out of three of them are "evil". It sounds like your girlfriend is a little more open to it, but her mom is a very controlling individual. If fantasy-related games and books are something you truly enjoy and spend a lot of your free time on, you're in a bad spot. Your gf and her mom will probably never accept that part of your interests/personality, and I haven't even mentioned how you feel about religion yet. That's not something I would want to remain involved in.

That said, I don't know about your history with this girl. You'll have to make the decision about what you think the future would be like if you stayed with her.

 

[Athanasius]

Amish is right.

Live with it or bail now. The clash over values will only get worse as the relationship progresses. Think long term: how would you raise kids if any should ever come along?

Either you and your girlfriend talk this out and establish a common middle ground that both of you are truly at peace with, or you end it.

Hayasbruder makes some good points, and perhaps you can use those to convince your girlfriend of the following premise: fanstasy is not intrinsically evil

But it seems that she is from a background that asserts that fantasy is intrinsically evil.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

dude, there are so many things about this relationship that are wrong. you don't respect your gf's belief, and she doesn't respect yours... you don't like her parents, they don't like you... you are agnostic, which is the same thing as atheist to them...

you got many potential deal breakers here. BUT none are too big if you and she can communicate and talk about these things.

I would suggest you start exploring some of these issues now, before you are engages or married, just in case you decide to end the relationship

 

[cmdavid]

her deciding not to go to watch LOTR is not pressing her religion on you.. her pressing her religion on you would be constantly bugging you about going to church, attending bible study w/ her, and all that stuff... although she knows that you are an agnostic....
Also, her deciding not to go to LOTR is her own personal decision, not yours... just like you not going to church is your own personal decision, not hers... Now I see that you dont hold her religion against her, just as no Christian should hold anybody doing something they dont agree with against them.. example, she shouldn't hold going to see LOTR against you if you do decide to go....
as for me, well I am a Christian, and I want to go see LOTR.... I know that Christian groups have strongly recommended agianst seeing movies like Harry Potter, but I havent heard anything like that against LOTR.. .and besides that, I like to make my own decisions about movies, and whether they promote witchcraft, or just simply portray it... besides all that.. she is an adult now, if movies like LOTR and Harry Potter can actually affect her mind and the way she thinks, then maybe she is a bit too immature for you... especially if she can't make decisions on watching movies on her own....
I think that you need to tell Jen that she should start thinking for herself, and not letting her mother think for her.. she will be graduating from college in a year, and its insane for her mother to make these decisions for her still.... you should tell her that the only way she will know whether the movie is OK or not to watch for a Christian is by watching it herself...or at least doing some sort of research on it, and not just listening to her mother all the time..... I can tell her mother doesnt have an open-mind about it... As a Christian I don't agree with that, and have learned to develop an open-mind and to think for myself what's right and wrong...

 

[Looney]

I doubt this relationship is going anywhere unless you can change and become these extreme christians. I highly doubt you'll change her, since she seems to be pretty brainwashed.

 

[BoberFett]

I'll just tell you that in my personal experience, differences in core beliefs are very hard to work around.

When we met, my ex-wife and I had very similar religious/spiritual views. We were both kind of middle of the roaders. Questioning religion, but open to spirituality. As time moved along, she got more religious and I got less. Now she's into church, bible studies, that sort of thing and she also does that labeling things as evil that you're seeing. I couldn't stand it anymore and it's part of the reason we're divorcing.

 

[linuxboy]

any and all views welcome.

Often I find myself in a position where I observe the exact same behavior you described. People get hold of an idea and have a desparate need to cling to it. This does not only hold true for your gf but for countless other people as well, including yourself. You hold on to the idea of having an open mind and being open to experience. She holds on to the idea of sticking to an idea and finding satisfaction in her belief in a particular dogmatical ideology.

Let me first examine the issue and then possibly to try predict a future outcome based on past experience and theory.

Unless a drastic change occurs, she will not let go of her beliefs. If someone has gotten to that age and still holds a dogmatic and inflexible firm of a religious foundation, the superstition will continue for the majority of the life. This is not to say that it cannot be overcome but if you knew how to change her, I doubt you would be seeking advice as you would already know the theoretical and practical solutions. That being said, this issue alone may be the desiding factor in your relationship with Jen. It seems as if you two are at odds. If you wish to move to a deeper empathetic understanding of each other and if you wish your love to grow, both she and you will have to let go of your current understanding. You will have to let go of the idea of openmindedness and become openmindedness and she will have to let go of her anthropomorphic conceptions of the Divine and of any spiritual reality of perceptions of the Real. Unless you both do this and with full and significant effort, it will always be a wedge where neither party is willing to compromise because it forms the basis for a belief system and the foundation for reality. This foundation can only be gently rebuilt, and never destroyed.

Based on what I have seen, she will not be liekly to give up her beliefs for you. It is too precious of an understanding and does have some spiritual sigificance, even if it is ridiculous from a rational perspective. You of course will never adopt such a superstition ideology since it is, rightly so, reidiculous and most of the concepts she is talking about can be explained by scientific ideas and empirical data.

As such, this will be the deal breaker but you must make every effort to explain your position and to really try and see inside her world. Her world/reality is actually very beautiful and hard to grasp. I have found it worth the effort. The question is, will you and will it work?

I wish you well.

Cheers !

 

[StageLeft]

I never realized how much brainwashing her mother had done to her and now I am questioning whether or not I want to be with someone so closed minded

As you should be.

I have not read the harry potter books but anybody who thinks they "promote witchcraft and satanism" has forgotten a very basic lesson of childhood: Pretending.

It's a damn book. It's not a guide on how to live one's life. If a fully grown adult can't enjoy a story like this for what it is - a simple story taking place in a different world - that person needs help.

Maybe your relationship with your gf is great, and breaking up over this seems pretty minor, but it could possibly hint towards greater issues. Has her mother or her demonstrated anything else similarly pathetic, or is it only with these two movies?

 

[daddyo]

Amish is dead on.



<< any movie "like that" allows satan to get a hold of your brain and that there was more to "spiritual warfare" than me or her knew >>



My book is righter than yours, eh?

A few centuries ago, people with opinions like that ran around with torches and burned women they liked to call "witches". Movies are the vehicle of Satan? You have to ask yourself if you can live with a bible-thumper, because that's the road you're going down. If the relationship progresses further, the values that Jen and her parents uphold will more than likely be pushed on to you, and DEFINITELY onto any children you may have. Can you live with children who think their father is going to hell because he watches Lord of the Rings?

If you can live with it, but you still want to see the movie, you might want to explain to Jen that the guy who wrote Lord of the Rings was a devout Christian and many people view LOTR as one great big religious allegory.

 

[linuxboy]

how would you raise kids if any should ever come along?

My friend, you hit THE key issue I danced around with. If one marries, how will the kids be raised? I can count on my one hand the number of families I know who have survived and held deeply diverging religious beliefs. I do tend to agree that this is a deal breaker and a very important issue in your relationship.


Cheers !

 

[Optimus]

Good advice so far - at the very least you are in for a lifetime of this kind of stuff with a mother-in-law like that (should you two marry). You can't change it, only your GF can - and doing so may involve a lot of trouble between her and her mom.

On a side note - I feel its important to stress something:

This is not a Christian thing. Yes its something some Christians do, but definitely not all and I, as a Christian, don't believe its reasonable.

I'm a devout Roman Catholic - mass on Sundays, I am a former seminarian, Rosaries, heck I even wear the Scapular (if you even know what that is you have a good understanding then ).

I love the Harry Potter books and really liked the film. I watch the Simpsons religiously, play violent video games (MGS2 rocks!), and am seeing LOTR the absolute first chance I get. I grew up on those books (and C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia).

There is no conflict with my faith - neither book promote anything evil and in fact black magic is the whole root of the problem in each story (Potter and LOTR). They encourage freindship, trust, loyalty, honesty, courage, and truth... being GOOD.

Some people just have a problem with these things - its a fear response really.

We are to live in the world... but not of it. But we are to live IN it and be part of it! As long as something is not truly BAD, there should be no problem.

Harry Potter no more promotes satanism than old westerns promote gunfighting, or Star Wars promotes swordfighting, etc. Actually less, since the whole concept of Harry Potter is that there is good magic and bad magic. Even if you equate the bad magic to Satanism, ITS BAD MAGIC - its treated as bad, bad stuff in the books!


Sorry to go off like this but I expected and still expect the usual suspects to barge in here and say "See! Thats what Christians do! They are insane loosers!".

[Obscure Simpson's Reference]

I may be a lot of things... a cheat, a liar, a theif, a communist... but I am NOT a porn star!

[/Obscure Simpson's Reference]



Edit/ BTW, Tolkein wasn't just Christian, he was Catholic - yay team! (its a joke, lighten up )

 

[SaltBoy]

Forget trying to explain these things to these types of people. As a so-called Christian myself, I'm rather embarrassed by their viewpoints. Let me guess, they thought Omega Code and Left Behind were the best movies ever?

Do what Amish says.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

OK you say you are 24. Your girlfriend lives with her parents and does everything they tell her. How old is she? 16? Tell her to stand up to her parents and that she can make her own descisions. Ask her to move in with you to get away from her obsesive mother.

If all else fails tell mom that its a God Damn movie meant for entertainment.

 

[DavidTigerFan]

Thanks for all the quick replies. Just to clarify a few things.

Yamaha,

Its not that I don't respect Jen or her mother, I just find that this kind of close mindedness is never good. Also, her mother adores me and I like her...it was that one time that we have ever clashed. Her father is great and from what I can tell is VERY similar to me. Her mother runs the family and is definately a control freak. She worries about everything and I swear she will be dead by the time she is 60 from a stress induced heart attack. Jen has openly said that she wants me to share in her faith and eventually I think I will make it there, but never to the extent that I close my mind to all possibilities.

Hayabus,

Thanks for the ammo, I didn't know that about Tolkien...I did hear that about CS lewis though.

Sandigga,

Thank you for a view from the Christian side. Glad to know that not all Christians feel the same way.

Bober,

Thank you too...I am sorry for your relationship, but at least it might help mine.

Linuxboy,

Man are you a philosophy major or something? I had trouble even understanding your reply, but from what I can gather it sounds like good advice.

Thats it for now...

-D

 

[vi edit]

As other's have said, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

What will you do about marriage? If her family as you described, there is no way you will be able to marry her without going through the proper religious hoops that her denomination requires. This may even require you to go through various classes put on by the church that will most definitely show you that you two are not compatible.

Also, say you did have kids - she'll want them to go to church and if you may not want to make them go - who wins?

You may be dealing with it now, but this is something that will forever haunt you...so long as her mother is alive anyway.

 

[Athanasius]

Hey Optimus:

Which scapular do you wear?

You can't be a Christian and wear the wrong scapular (j/k)

 

[BoberFett]

<< so long as her mother is alive anyway. >>

Which brings up another choice...

 

[Jzero]

It's humorous that "Jen" would be willing to date an agnostic but not see Harry Potter or LOTR. What's up with that? I mean....what's likely to influence you more? Your bf/gf or a movie? She's worried that these movies allow Satan to get a hold on your brain, but seeing as you're not a Christian, does that not mean that Satan ALREADY has a hold of your brain? I don't get it. And I'm a Christian. Jeebus it's not like it's even pornographic! If when I kick it, Jesus boots me off to Hell b/c I watched Harry Potter and LOTR, I'd be glad to go....

Which brings me to Jzero's 5th Observation: People who proclaim that God is all-knowing and all-power often turn around and accuse him of doing the most harebrained things.

GTFOOH. They should round Nazis like this up and shoot 'em all dead. Would you believe the moron priest at my cousin's Catholic Church actually said to the entire congregation that it would be a sin to see Harry Potter? My mom said "Are you going to see Harry Potter?"
The kid LOVES Harry Potter. I bought him a signed copy of The Sorcerer's Stone and he thought it was about the greatest gift he'd ever gotten!
He says "No, I don't think I can go."
my mom: "Why not?"
cousin: "Well Father so-and-so says it's a sin and I don't want Jesus to be mad at you."
Thanks, fellow Christians, for convincing an 11-year-old that he is going to hell for being an 11-year-old.

WHAT A JACKA$$!
I'm telling you now--dump your "Christian" girlfriend or at least tell her to sod off and go see both Harry Potter and LOTR. Harry Potter was a VERY fun movie. Go read the books, too--they're great fun even for adults. One of the first things to learn in a long-term relationship is that people don't change. If you can't learn to love the both that which you like and that which you do not like, then you aren't really in love.

Enjoy the films.
And God bless

 

[jjones]

your gf sounds like a very nice person but she is extremely closed-minded and has a view of religious beliefs that you do not share. this is nothing when it comes to something like going to see a movie but it will grow into a very big issue as time goes by. it's one thing to be with a person that shares different beliefs and its another when that person is intolerant because of those beliefs. this is very likely to only grow more pronounced as she grows older. i hate to say it but i definately do not see a long lasting, loving and respectful relationship with you and this girl.

 

[Athanasius]

Hi linux:



<< how would you raise kids if any should ever come along? >>



It isn't just the key issue in the event that kids actually come along. Considering this point has real life applications in the present. Generally, what I want to pass on to my kids has greatest value for me, so using the hypothetical of future children helps me see more clearly what beliefs are most important to me right now. With that clarity comes light. Whether I have the strength to do what the light makes so obvious must be done is another question altogether.

 

[DavidTigerFan]

Another note here...and some clarification

Even though her mother is as religious as she is, she doesn't go to church. Jen claims to be Lutheran, but when I went to church with her it was definately not any lutheran service I had been to so I doubt there are any big ceremonies or anything of the like. I asked her if we could switch and she said yes. So now we go to a methodist church and thats fine with me.

Also, about her father. He is a very nice man, and the impression I get is that he has been whipped by her mother. He doesn't go to any church, and from what I can tell, has never gone. I think he is just along for the ride because he doesn't know any better.

In the 3 years I have been with Jen, nothing except these situations have led me to believe that she or her mother is a fanatic. I do see a major influence her mother has on Jen so I think I am going to try to get a job farther away just to get away.

One thing I do see is that her mother and her father are at opposite ends of the spectrum and because of this I really do feel Jen isn't as bad as either. More of a melding of the two. She isn't fanatical like her mother, but she isn't apathetic like her father. Its this quality in her that I think I can reach a middle ground with her on issues like this...

As far as kids go, I have no problem with my kids being brought up Christians, but I certainly feel that when they get "of age" they can decide for themselves and I also feel that they should be able to read whatever books they want.

I have read all 4 potter books, but interestingly enough, I have read all of the Left Behind series too. I enjoyed both series. I try to be open minded and I try to be logical.

As far as the whole "good" magic vs "bad" magic argument goes, that doesn't fly with her. ANY magic is bad according to her.

I'll reply more later...
-D