Need Highly Overclockable P4C Setup Recommendations!

[rpr]

I've currently got a system running an unlocked 1 Ghz T'Bird at 1.3 Ghz. AXIA stepping - remember those? It is way past the time for an upgrade!

I've decided on a P4C this time around, but I'm stumped on the speed CPU (2.4C, 2.6C or 2.8C), mobo and memory choices.

I really don't need extensive built in RAID capabilities on the mobo, but a Gigabit LAN would be nice. It must be a stable, fast and highly overclockabe setup.

Any recommendations? Tx.

 

[Duvie]

I would get a M0 stepping 2.4c at www.zipzoomfly.com. the M0 stepping is rumored to be a neutered cached P4EE...Highly overclockable....


I would couple this with either the

Asus P4C800-Deluxe or Abit IC7 Max3

I would look at Hyper X ram at whatever you can afford and remember that many of the ram in high overclocked fsbs cannot run at their rated speeds. Don't be fooled by thinking ram speed is make or break...A good 5:4 ratio will prolong your oc and give you stellar numbers...

The boards I listed are someof the most consistent I have seen to hitting and holding ultra high fsn on the northbridge chipset along with having nice cooling options and the the type of power conditions neede to pull it off...


I would look at a nive enermax 430 watt or bigger PSU...


The rest pretty much doesn't matter unless you have fantasies of more then 3.6-3.7ghz on air....If you do keep dreaming and get a water cooled setup...4ghz is even unlikely with water cooled....

I am running 3.5ghz aircooled but it is tough...I have seen many running 3.6ghz still aircooled...I like the Zalmann 7000Cu for that and maybe some case duct mods or very nice case with 120mm case fans...you can 7v mod them for silence but still push ample air...

 

[rpr]

Duvie: Thanks. I believe you may have also given me some good advice 2 years ago with my current setup.

No water clooling for me, or anything ridiculously extreme. Just want the most bang for my buck.

Few questions:

1) On the P4C's that are rumored to be neutered Extreme chips, is it just the 2.4C's? I was leaning towards a 2.6C as they (arguably) seem to be considered the best overclockable chips.

2) Also, wouldn't the Asus P4C800-E Deluxe (ICH5R chipset) be better than the P4C800-Deluxe (ICH5 chipset).

3) Do you have any thoughts on the Abit AI7?

 

[Technonut]

The only " neutered cached P4EE" available is in 2.4C and 2.8C flavors. AFAIK, Intel has no plans for a M0 2.6C.

There is also another school of thought on these M0 processors.... They could also be EEs that did not make the 3.2GHz speed binning.

I am begining to think that this may be the case on some, since I have been through a few so far that topped out @ 3.3GHz / reasonable VCore. (1.575-1.60V) I have read of similar reports on other forums. The one I am currently running does 3420MHz @ 1.575V.

 

[Duvie]

1) I cannot agree with that...Basic thought on this is most of these p4 C chips are part of extremely good yields and the reason we often have the different speed grades has more to do with market demand then their performance or therefore lack of.

I have seen many chips from 2.4 to 3.0 p4c and I seen at least a few of all of them hit 3.5 to 3.6ghz....I would say generally you are better suited for a high oc of 3.5 to 3.6ghz with the 2.8 or better chip but you also pay a bit more for it for the chance...

I think the 2.4c is the most overclockable cause even crap ones do 3.0ghz or 25% OC...I have seen many 2.6's just get 3.0ghz as well and therefore overclocked less...

The 2.4c is the best bang for the buck cause its likelihood it can do 3.2ghz and for a very cheap price. Ultimately if it does reach the same point as the 2.6 it should have a slight edge that the higher the system bus the better the performance. the disadvantage can be the need for better ram and cooling cause the system runs about 19fsb higher at the same point.


2) I really don't know on that subject

3) Great board as it has many of the overclocking features that makes the max3 a great board at a reasonable price...your choice in that...


technonut,

A different way to look at it may be that in actuallity the reason a P4EE chip may have been downgraded to an M0 stepping p4 2.4c or 2.8c may have more to do with some defect in part of the 2mb of l3 cache and therefore nothing wrong with speed at all and the chip takes advanatage of the new stepping of the p4ee chip. In most instances steppings can correct many issues that often can help ocing just as heat andpower issues...

I have seen quite few guys at bleedinedge.com pull these chips and get 3.4-3.6ghz quite regularly with no extreme vcore...

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Originally posted by: Technonut
The only " neutered cached P4EE" available is in 2.4C and 2.8C flavors. AFAIK, Intel has no plans for a M0 2.6C.

There is also another school of thought on these M0 processors.... They could also be EEs that did not make the 3.2GHz speed binning.

I am begining to think that this may be the case on some, since I have been through a few so far that topped out @ 3.3GHz / reasonable VCore. (1.575-1.60V) I have read of similar reports on other forums. The one I am currently running does 3420MHz @ 1.575V.

If I were to guess, I'd say they are EE cores that failed in some way. If you're lucky, the reason they failed is related to cache so they can stil run nice and fast. If you're not so lucky, then the reason they failed is because they couldn't be clocked high enough at default Vcore, in which case you're disappointed.

I think that while the 2.4C is nice, it puts excessive stress on the motherboards since getting them up above 3.2 GHz requires some very high FSB settings. I'd go for a 2.6C or a 2.8C (IMHO the most balanced chips, multiplier-wise given the current yields).

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: Technonut
The only " neutered cached P4EE" available is in 2.4C and 2.8C flavors. AFAIK, Intel has no plans for a M0 2.6C.

There is also another school of thought on these M0 processors.... They could also be EEs that did not make the 3.2GHz speed binning.

I am begining to think that this may be the case on some, since I have been through a few so far that topped out @ 3.3GHz / reasonable VCore. (1.575-1.60V) I have read of similar reports on other forums. The one I am currently running does 3420MHz @ 1.575V.

If I were to guess, I'd say they are EE cores that failed in some way. If you're lucky, the reason they failed is related to cache so they can stil run nice and fast. If you're not so lucky, then the reason they failed is because they couldn't be clocked high enough at default Vcore, in which case you're disappointed.

I think that while the 2.4C is nice, it puts excessive stress on the motherboards since getting them up above 3.2 GHz requires some very high FSB settings. I'd go for a 2.6C or a 2.8C (IMHO the most balanced chips, multiplier-wise given the current yields).

I agree the stress is there and you can likely run into motherboard limitations before cpu...however if you do your homework and get the type of board thatcan hit these high fsbs...IE Abit IC7 (bios 17 or newer), IC7 MAX3, AI7, Asus P4C800, etc. these boards have routinely hit up to 300fsb for many....

This is about highly overclockable p4c setup...getting a 2.6 and only getting to 3-3.2ghz would be quite disappointing...AND IT WAS for me...My 2.6c only did 3.2ghz at 1.58v and 3.25ghz at 1.63v actual....Coming off of my 1.6a@2.74ghz and p4 2.4b@3.24ghz (w/ 1.6v) is was diappointing...So I got a 2.4c and now I am at 3.5ghz w/ 1.58v actual...almost a 50% overclock....

If you like raynor's idea I would spring for the 2.8 as that is your best chance of 3.5ghz and it can be done with 250fsb which is not past the sketchy stage for most motherboards and you can get some ram to run 1:1 still at that speed...

 

[Shimmishim]

Glad to see my hand-me-downs are doing so well in other systems!

2.4C is the way to go like everyone else has said.

For the motherboard, I like the IC7 but it just has weak voltages with the 430W antec for some reason or another...

If you get the IC7 non max / G you'll also be limited to a vdimm voltage of 2.8 which is actually 2.75.

my stupid gold dragon wasn't cutting it at 2.75 and i had to vdimm mod my board to get 3.05 volts from it!


abit boards undervolt like crazy
asus p4c800-e overvolts like a mother..

just remember that when you decide on your board..

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Well FWIW, I bought a P4 2.8C off the forums hoping to get it up to 3.5 GHz to go with my RAM at 1:1. That idea failed miserably, it turns out that the 2.8C is actually the same sSpec as my current P2.4C and it overclocks about the same (well maybe slightly better but I can't get 3.5 GHz out of it so I'm sticking with my current 3.3 GHz setup).

I think that you have to remember that overclocking is luck of the draw, I've read of 2.6Cs that get to 3.5-3.6 GHz just the same as I've read of 2.4Cs that can't hit 3 GHz. IMHO, the way to approach overclocking is to set the most favorable conditions to getting a reasonable overclock then hoping for the best, this means:
- Good motherboard, decent cooling, and a CPU with as recent an sSpec as you can get and good multiplier given your RAM. After that, all you can do is hope for the best.

As for my overclocking, I think I'll stick with my 3.3 GHz P4 until Prescott comes around, hunting for a CPU that may get me at most an extra 400 MHz on air isn't worth the effort.

Sorry for the thread hi-jack rpr, these are my personal opinions though I think that Duvie brings up some excellent points.

 

[Duvie]

Lets talk about memory choices...

1) stay away from the buffalo chips..IMHO as I have a bit of experience with them..Unless they come with heatspreaders don't get them..what the hell are these ppl thinking having 533mhz ddr sticks with no spreaders..spell trouble off the bat...

2) geils are gong to be iffy in some boards and I definitely would want to go withthese sticks and say the max3 where I can take the voltage up to 2.9v...

3) OCZ been hit or miss and I have heard of good things with them and the asus mobo...

4) Hyper X chips seem to have done well from what I have seen..

5) Muskin level2 stuff seem to be the buzzword of late in some circles...


The bottom line avoid ch5 (i think that is it) chipset on the ram...Look for the BH5 chips if you want to get past 250fsb on most boards...

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Originally posted by: Duvie
Lets talk about memory choices...

1) stay away from the buffalo chips..IMHO as I have a bit of experience with them..Unless they come with heatspreaders don't get them..what the hell are these ppl thinking having 533mhz ddr sticks with no spreaders..spell trouble off the bat...

2) geils are gong to be iffy in some boards and I definitely would want to go withthese sticks and say the max3 where I can take the voltage up to 2.9v...

3) OCZ been hit or miss and I have heard of good things with them and the asus mobo...

4) Hyper X chips seem to have done well from what I have seen..

5) Muskin level2 stuff seem to be the buzzword of late in some circles...


The bottom line avoid ch5 (i think that is it) chipset on the ram...Look for the BH5 chips if you want to get past 250fsb on most boards...

Winbond CH5 chipped RAM seem to have issues in some boards so it may be wise to avoid them. Winbond BH5 in most cases seems to continue to get excellent results in most cases with good timings to boot, these are the best "compromise" chips on the market with ability to clock fairly high or keep tight timings at lower speeds.

For maximum OC speed (albeit at loose timings) I've yet to see anything touch Hynix's BT-D43 (those are the last digits on the chips). These are the chips that all the high end manufacturers (Corsair, OCZ, Kingston in their HyperX line, etc) were using in their PC4000+ lines last time I checked, things may have changed a bit now. The only trouble is finsing them since Hynix faces stiff tariffs in the US. I have a pair of sticks with these chips on them (generic brand) and they run together perfectly at 265 MHz 1:1. At that point, my poor Abit IS7 starts to act funny.

If I had to recommend RAM for a 2.4C, I'd recommend the Hynix chips; for a 2.8C, I think that the Winbond BH5 chips are better suited. Corsair, and Kingston HyperX have all been very good in my experience. I've never tried Buffalo, Mushin, or OCZ so I can't comment on them, but I personally won't be buying OCZ any time soon because of their history.

 

[rpr]

Thanks guys...great info!

Here is what I ordered from zipzoomfly this morning:

Asus P4C800-E Deluxe
Retail 2.4C P4
Kingston HyperX 512MB Kit DDR500 PC4000 (KHX4000K2/512)

$492 shipped. I'll post my impressions. Tx again!

 

[Duvie]

NIce...

What do you have for power supply and what heatsink did you get?? Are you going to try stock first??? Stock I think will not go much over 3.3ghz...So let us know...

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Originally posted by: Duvie
NIce...

What do you have for power supply and what heatsink did you get?? Are you going to try stock first??? Stock I think will not go much over 3.3ghz...So let us know...

3.3 GHz is a little high to be expecting, if you can make it up that high then it's a nice bonus, but it's not something I'd build myself up to expect.

Heatsink: I'd recommend you start with the stock heatsink, if it turns out to be insufficient either from the max-overclock or the noise point of view you can switch to something else later. The Zalman 7000A-AlCu is a good compromise for price/performance/weight.

Power supply: If you're happy with your current PS unit and it's rated for 300W or better I'd stick with it for now. Otherwise, I'd recommend 350W at least, I'd take 400W if you can afford it. Antec's TruePower supplies have a good rep, but I've also heard good things about the Seasonic power supplies which are supposed to be very quiet, stay away from off-brand stuff when buying power supplies a good power supply is definitely worth the extra money.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: Duvie
NIce...

What do you have for power supply and what heatsink did you get?? Are you going to try stock first??? Stock I think will not go much over 3.3ghz...So let us know...

3.3 GHz is a little high to be expecting, if you can make it up that high then it's a nice bonus, but it's not something I'd build myself up to expect.

Heatsink: I'd recommend you start with the stock heatsink, if it turns out to be insufficient either from the max-overclock or the noise point of view you can switch to something else later. The Zalman 7000A-AlCu is a good compromise for price/performance/weight.

Power supply: If you're happy with your current PS unit and it's rated for 300W or better I'd stick with it for now. Otherwise, I'd recommend 350W at least, I'd take 400W if you can afford it. Antec's TruePower supplies have a good rep, but I've also heard good things about the Seasonic power supplies which are supposed to be very quiet, stay away from off-brand stuff when buying power supplies a good power supply is definitely worth the extra money.

I agree try stock first but I was telling him there will be a limit to its potential...


I also would rather get the all copper heatsink...copper is better then aluminum and I think the specs state the zalman 7000Cu has a .17 or .18c/watt ratio and is just a few bucks more....


Power supplies are critical and from my past I have ran with enermax and antecs and I have had both the true power 430 and the enermax 430 and the enermax was much better for tighter rails. Looking agaion at the specs there is no secret why has it has a much higher amps on the 12v rail the key to the power of the intel p4.....To achieve much above a 3ghz oevrclock you will need a good power supply with a 25+amp on the 12v rail and unfortunately that usually comes in the 400+ power supplies by someof the big boys....

Look at top overclocks by shimishim, Thugrook, pastorjay, Lastride, oldfart, etc...Notice the power supplies they use....2.4@3.5 I am noticing my 12v rail creeping down as I load to 11.74...At 3ghz I never saw below 11.88 under load...My 2.4b@3.24ghz held a nice 11.94 with this enermax while my antec true power was hitting the 11.58 range and I ultimately got rid at 3.2ghz and pushed further ahead with the enermax....


I consider a trusty true performer with a high amperage on the 12v rail as important as the mobo and the ram....

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

The reason I suggested the Zalman AlCu is that for one thing the pure copper (Cu) version falls outside Intel's weight specs for a heatsink. I'm running the Zalman 7000-AlCu in my computer and I'm very happy with its performance on a P4C at 3.3 GHz. I just don't think that the extra weight and cost is worth it in this case to go with the all copper heatsink. IMHO, if you're really looking for top-end performance and you're willing to pay top dollar for it, look at Thermalright's SLK line-up.

No doubt about it, to get top overclocks you need an excellent power supply but not everyone can afford to run a 400W+ power supply, my recommendation of 350W or better is budget based. I personally wouldn't buy less than a brand-name 400W unit, but for the budget-conscious 350W is perfectly acceptable. Furthermore, because the 350W units aren't targetted at the enthusiast crowd they can be found much cheaper.

These comments are all IMHO, of course. If you're willing to spend the big bucks to get an insane OC'ing rig, then go ahead, by all means. I am usually on a fairly tight budget when I buy hardware so I try to go for best bang for the buck. I run a 2.4C, Zalman 7000-AlCu, Abit IS7, generic PC3200 RAM with Hynix BT-D43 chips, and Thermaltake 420W PS unit. None of these items are top of the line, but for the money I think that the performance I get out of them is great.

 

[rpr]

I am using an Enermax 430W power supply. However, it is 2 to 3 years old, so I hope it will handle the newer P4 OK.

As far as heatsink, I figured I would try the stock first. I have a well cooled full tower case (Antec I think). I realized today I forgot to order thermal paste, but I think I have an old tube of Arctic Silver somewhere.

I still haven't received a tracking number from zipzoomfly. I was hoping it would ship today (ordered it around 9:00am Eastern time). Oh well.

 

[Duvie]

You are going to need a 12v adapter plug so see if you have the sqare 4 pin connector and if not you will need to get an adapter for this....


the themaltake and the fortons I have have heard decent things from and have seen them on some good overclocks...Right now the antec and enermax 430's will run about 25 more dollars so it is up to the buyer...

 

[rpr]

I just checked my PS. It's an Enermax EG465P-VE, and it has a "MEET P4" round adhesive label on it. So I should be good to go. Tx.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: Duvie
Lets talk about memory choices...

1) stay away from the buffalo chips..IMHO as I have a bit of experience with them..Unless they come with heatspreaders don't get them..what the hell are these ppl thinking having 533mhz ddr sticks with no spreaders..spell trouble off the bat...

2) geils are gong to be iffy in some boards and I definitely would want to go withthese sticks and say the max3 where I can take the voltage up to 2.9v...

3) OCZ been hit or miss and I have heard of good things with them and the asus mobo...

4) Hyper X chips seem to have done well from what I have seen..

5) Muskin level2 stuff seem to be the buzzword of late in some circles...


The bottom line avoid ch5 (i think that is it) chipset on the ram...Look for the BH5 chips if you want to get past 250fsb on most boards...

Winbond CH5 chipped RAM seem to have issues in some boards so it may be wise to avoid them. Winbond BH5 in most cases seems to continue to get excellent results in most cases with good timings to boot, these are the best "compromise" chips on the market with ability to clock fairly high or keep tight timings at lower speeds.

For maximum OC speed (albeit at loose timings) I've yet to see anything touch Hynix's BT-D43 (those are the last digits on the chips). These are the chips that all the high end manufacturers (Corsair, OCZ, Kingston in their HyperX line, etc) were using in their PC4000+ lines last time I checked, things may have changed a bit now. The only trouble is finsing them since Hynix faces stiff tariffs in the US. I have a pair of sticks with these chips on them (generic brand) and they run together perfectly at 265 MHz 1:1. At that point, my poor Abit IS7 starts to act funny.

If I had to recommend RAM for a 2.4C, I'd recommend the Hynix chips; for a 2.8C, I think that the Winbond BH5 chips are better suited. Corsair, and Kingston HyperX have all been very good in my experience. I've never tried Buffalo, Mushin, or OCZ so I can't comment on them, but I personally won't be buying OCZ any time soon because of their history.

here is the problem...I just tried some pc4300 Buffalo for Challenger and they have the hynix chipset on them and they fail to work past 255fsb on this board no matter the timings or the ratio...Just straight beep code...With my 2.6c they worked only up to 254fsb 1:1 then I reached the limit of my cpu....


I was and am not impressed with them....Problem may be they need more then 2.8v which my board was limited to and they lacked heat spreaders a flaw I see in their design....

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

Well, to be honest with you I am very happy with them because I only paid for PC3200 (thus avoided the PC4300 price tag). I think the issue in your case may be some sort of incompatibility between your board and these specific chips (sort of like how i875/i865 have issues with CH5 chips past a certain speed). Maybe above 255 MHz, the BIOS fools around with some parameters that don't agree with the RAM or something of the kind. It is also possible that these chips just can't handle PAT above that speed, I'll have to check my modules but I know for sure that I can't enable "Turbo Mode" in my i865 at 260 MHz, though they work fine up to 265 MHz when it's not enabled; either way this is an issue with Buffalo's QC since these chips are really only rated to PC3200 standards by Hynix.

IMHO, if you're going to pay the premium for PC3700+, go with a brand name with a solid rep. If you're taking your chances with PC3200 (or whatever happens to be standard), you can be a little more daring if you know that the markings on the chips correspond to the ones your looking for. Of course, if I had the money I'd go straight for Kingston HyperX, Mushkin Lvl II, and Corsair XMS

 

[rpr]

OK guys. Just looked at what they shipped me.

The P4 2.4C is an SL6Z3 Costa Rica. Is that one of the m0 steppings everyone has been referring to???

 

[Technonut]

Sure is... What is the Pack Date on yours?

 

[rpr]

Pack date is 11/14/03. Does that mean anything in particular?

 

[Technonut]

It should not.... Please post your results to satisfy my curiosity though. I am testing my 5th one as of today, and am begining to form a theory.